bogie
Member
I think that these would go over better on campuses, in city neighborhoods, etc...
So, Oleg... Got ink?
So, Oleg... Got ink?
When protector is away from home
- Thread starter Oleg Volk
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Oleg Volk
Moderator Emeritus
http://60s-man.livejournal.com/135648.html
No ink on me. I still have some vellum left for sketching, don't have to draw on my own arm.
No ink on me. I still have some vellum left for sketching, don't have to draw on my own arm.
ZeSpectre
Member
Oleg,
A thought that just popped into my head (gratis, do what you want with it)
(Picture of a happy guy and wife in a doorway reaching out to greet)
We welcome friends with open arms.
("beauty shot" of nice firearm on a nightstand)
We welcome enemies with arms ready.
The whole picture just popped into my head from somewhere, I don't think it's something I've seen before.
A thought that just popped into my head (gratis, do what you want with it)
(Picture of a happy guy and wife in a doorway reaching out to greet)
We welcome friends with open arms.
("beauty shot" of nice firearm on a nightstand)
We welcome enemies with arms ready.
The whole picture just popped into my head from somewhere, I don't think it's something I've seen before.
They're expressions are too flat and that doean't reach out to people.
tinygnat219
Member
Oleg,
Don't put contractions in, it sounds fine the way it is. Try it with different ethnicities to take some of the "White" Spin off of Gun Ownership.
Just my thoughts.
Don't put contractions in, it sounds fine the way it is. Try it with different ethnicities to take some of the "White" Spin off of Gun Ownership.
Just my thoughts.
Oleg Volk
Moderator Emeritus
I have posters with people of various ethnicities already. I don't see the use of white as a problem, but I guess some people would.
Well, I think it looks great the way it is, especially with the latest phrasing - it's more succinct, easy to take in. The couple looks perfectly..heh, I was going to say harmless 
. They look friendly. Nice work on the other too, the "teach a man.."
. They look friendly. Nice work on the other too, the "teach a man.."I'm not saying using a white person is a problem Oleg.
I am saying that you need to find some that don't resemble skin-heads so closely.
If you had chosen a "non-pale as a ghost" White Man in a nice sports jacket, who is clean shaven or with a more-respectable style of facial hair (non gang-banger style trim as your subject has), wearing dockers then I wouldn't think "White Supremecist" immediately upon seeing him.
Your female is also extremely pale, with what appears to be died black hair, with a visible tat. If she looked more "average girl next door" (Blond or Brunette or even Red Head, shoulder length hair, no tats, good teeth, etc) then it would be more acceptable as well.
All of the above is my opinion on how to make the poster more appeasing to the people you are trying to convince that guns are good.
I am not biased against the stereotypes... my best friend has facial hair the same as the man above and he has tattoos. But I wouldn't want my friend to be the poster child for defending gun ownership and use as he wouldn't convey the right message to the right people.
Semper Fidelis
I am saying that you need to find some that don't resemble skin-heads so closely.
If you had chosen a "non-pale as a ghost" White Man in a nice sports jacket, who is clean shaven or with a more-respectable style of facial hair (non gang-banger style trim as your subject has), wearing dockers then I wouldn't think "White Supremecist" immediately upon seeing him.
Your female is also extremely pale, with what appears to be died black hair, with a visible tat. If she looked more "average girl next door" (Blond or Brunette or even Red Head, shoulder length hair, no tats, good teeth, etc) then it would be more acceptable as well.
All of the above is my opinion on how to make the poster more appeasing to the people you are trying to convince that guns are good.
I am not biased against the stereotypes... my best friend has facial hair the same as the man above and he has tattoos. But I wouldn't want my friend to be the poster child for defending gun ownership and use as he wouldn't convey the right message to the right people.
Semper Fidelis
XavierBreath
Member
I'm going to toss my two pesos in as well, and say this is the wrong couple for the message.
I agree with Eleven Mike, there is something about the guy that smacks of white supremacist/separatist. Maybe it's the way the tonality of the photos enhance his blonde hair and blue eyes. Maybe it's the icy look he has. Maybe it's the shirt and (God help me....) the EBR. I can't put my finger on it, but it is unmistakably there.
I am certain this gentleman is far from being a white supremacist, but the conotation presented in the photo is very strong. If this were a pregnant black woman with a scowling black man with a blue bandana Aunt Jemimaed on his head there would be the Cripp conotation. If it was a grey bearded long haired guy in leather there would be a biker conotation. If this same gentleman were wearing bib overalls and carrying a wood stocked shotgun, the white supremacist conotation would evaporate. If he had a hint of a smile, I think it would evaporate. If he had on a tie, a T shirt, or even a ball cap, I think it would evaporate. I think the combination of the facial expression, khaki shirt and close cropped hair is creating the unintended message. As it is, the association is very strong.
The poster's message is being derailed by that white supremacist association. For me, it's an immediate and irreversible turn off. I don't even want to read the message. Now here's the rub.........That guy ressembles ME! I look a lot like that guy. I'm a balding blonde blue eyed white guy with a goatee. You would think I would be the last one to get this bad association here. Instead, it has me re-evaluating how I present myself to the world.
No offense at all to the couple, please, but I think the intended message is being undermined and usurped by an unintended subliminal message. That needs to be addressed rather than denied.
Of the two, I think the first version is the strongest graphically, and in the wording.
I agree with Eleven Mike, there is something about the guy that smacks of white supremacist/separatist. Maybe it's the way the tonality of the photos enhance his blonde hair and blue eyes. Maybe it's the icy look he has. Maybe it's the shirt and (God help me....) the EBR. I can't put my finger on it, but it is unmistakably there.
I am certain this gentleman is far from being a white supremacist, but the conotation presented in the photo is very strong. If this were a pregnant black woman with a scowling black man with a blue bandana Aunt Jemimaed on his head there would be the Cripp conotation. If it was a grey bearded long haired guy in leather there would be a biker conotation. If this same gentleman were wearing bib overalls and carrying a wood stocked shotgun, the white supremacist conotation would evaporate. If he had a hint of a smile, I think it would evaporate. If he had on a tie, a T shirt, or even a ball cap, I think it would evaporate. I think the combination of the facial expression, khaki shirt and close cropped hair is creating the unintended message. As it is, the association is very strong.
The poster's message is being derailed by that white supremacist association. For me, it's an immediate and irreversible turn off. I don't even want to read the message. Now here's the rub.........That guy ressembles ME! I look a lot like that guy. I'm a balding blonde blue eyed white guy with a goatee. You would think I would be the last one to get this bad association here. Instead, it has me re-evaluating how I present myself to the world.
No offense at all to the couple, please, but I think the intended message is being undermined and usurped by an unintended subliminal message. That needs to be addressed rather than denied.
Of the two, I think the first version is the strongest graphically, and in the wording.
Eleven Mike
Member
Xavier, I look just like you and the guy in the poster, but I've got a full head of hair. I keep it very short, but not too short.
One time, I got a haircut that took me pretty close to skinhead territory. I looked in the mirror and saw one of the White Sup jailbirds from American History X. I shaved the goatee and didn't let it grow out again until my hair grew out some.
One time, I got a haircut that took me pretty close to skinhead territory. I looked in the mirror and saw one of the White Sup jailbirds from American History X. I shaved the goatee and didn't let it grow out again until my hair grew out some.
Oleg Volk
Moderator Emeritus
Perceptions are important, however, I'd like to post the model's comment about this thread:
Eleven Mike
Member
I'm wondering why anyone had to "back them up." Did anyone accuse them of bigotry? Did anyone say they were bad people? Did anyone call them racists or criminals? I don't recall that. If someone can't handle the perceptions of large groups of strangers, that person should NOT be a model.
Oleg Volk
Moderator Emeritus
I posted that because of the inaccuracy of the public perceptions. I agree that that perception does limit the use of this graphic to a small target audience -- but I do have a specific group of viewers in mind for it.
I don't think anybody is being harsh (at least that I read), including myself.
If you were trying to make a statement that Snakes make great pets, you shouldn't use a Rattle Snake or a King Cobra (both known to be deadly) to put in your poster.
Even though the Rattle Snake might have it's fangs removed, or maybe it is the nicest snake ever, people associate snakes that look like rattle snakes as bad snakes.
You won't convince many people that snakes are good pets...
And by using someone who LOOKS (nobody here claimed the models WERE) like the low-life's of society, you do your message a disservice as well.
Good luck.
P.S. I do not intend in any way to degrade the models. They both look good. I am simply argueing from the "mid-higher" society angle which tends to be the focus on gun control reversal efforts. I apologize if anyone took anything I have said as an insult in any way, shape, or form.
If you were trying to make a statement that Snakes make great pets, you shouldn't use a Rattle Snake or a King Cobra (both known to be deadly) to put in your poster.
Even though the Rattle Snake might have it's fangs removed, or maybe it is the nicest snake ever, people associate snakes that look like rattle snakes as bad snakes.
You won't convince many people that snakes are good pets...
And by using someone who LOOKS (nobody here claimed the models WERE) like the low-life's of society, you do your message a disservice as well.
Good luck.
P.S. I do not intend in any way to degrade the models. They both look good. I am simply argueing from the "mid-higher" society angle which tends to be the focus on gun control reversal efforts. I apologize if anyone took anything I have said as an insult in any way, shape, or form.
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Eleven Mike
Member
Cool, then it should be no problem.
That last post crossed the harsh line, I think.
Oleg Volk
Moderator Emeritus
I appreciate the input.
MountainPeak
Member
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PAX took the words right out of my mouth(1st Post). I love the "Always a Man?" MANY years from now(I hope, she's 13), I can see my grand daughter having to hold a training session for a husband! As far as the ink, at 56, it's not for me, but really, who cares? Does anyone NOT have a friend, co-worker, family member, etc. that doesn't have one?
As far as the ink, at 56, it's not for me, but really, who cares? Does anyone NOT have a friend, co-worker, family member, etc. that doesn't have one?mustanger98
Member
To be honest, I read plenty of Low Road posts in the thread and I'm offended for the couple. As I said, tattoos are nothing to judge someone by. Most of us don't personally know 'em.
Green Lantern
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Meh - I know everyone's entitled to their opinion, but why do I feel like I'm one of the few here that does not think the couple looks too "scary" for the general non-firearm-enthusiast population?
Of course, I lead a somewhat sheltered life in my little community. I don't know any Bloods, Cripps, or White Nationals. My brother is a biker, but not quite the same image (greying-brown goatee and short to medium hair).
I understand and appreciate the need to not send the wrong message or scare anyone off. But as I said earlier, I personally find nothing at all "wrong" about these images. In fact, I think my first impression was not of the personal appearances, but the idea itself. And I can't find much more natural and right than parents being willing and ABLE to defend their children.
And I also like the idea of showing the diversity of the so-called "firearm culture." Oleg has done a great job of it so far, and these latest works continue the tradition.
Look at it this way - if some "outsider" sees the image and can't get over the fact that the woman has a tattoo, or the guy has short hair, and they're both pale (did I mention that I could use a bit of sun myself? ).....if they just assume that they're "bad" because of the way they LOOK...
...well, that person has deeper issues than just being anti-gun...IMHO!
Of course, I lead a somewhat sheltered life in my little community. I don't know any Bloods, Cripps, or White Nationals. My brother is a biker, but not quite the same image (greying-brown goatee and short to medium hair).
I understand and appreciate the need to not send the wrong message or scare anyone off. But as I said earlier, I personally find nothing at all "wrong" about these images. In fact, I think my first impression was not of the personal appearances, but the idea itself. And I can't find much more natural and right than parents being willing and ABLE to defend their children.
And I also like the idea of showing the diversity of the so-called "firearm culture." Oleg has done a great job of it so far, and these latest works continue the tradition.
Look at it this way - if some "outsider" sees the image and can't get over the fact that the woman has a tattoo, or the guy has short hair, and they're both pale (did I mention that I could use a bit of sun myself?
).....if they just assume that they're "bad" because of the way they LOOK......well, that person has deeper issues than just being anti-gun...IMHO!
I think any potential negative connotations could be toned down with slight change of positioning (and, uh gunning). Face him forward, making eye contact, and give him a revolver (or a non-black/non-pump shotgun) and the fears put forward here probably aren't an issue.
Baby steps - if the target audience are people who don't already own firearms, dropping them straight into a loaded M4 is tough.
Baby steps - if the target audience are people who don't already own firearms, dropping them straight into a loaded M4 is tough.
Very interesting how this thread has turned into a study on profiling without using the word, "profiling".
Don't get me wrong I think that it is VERY GOOD. Lots of very good comments and observations.
I would like to say that maybe adding a young child, clinging to Mommy and /or Daddy, to the "family" may offset the missconception of some.
Vern
Don't get me wrong I think that it is VERY GOOD. Lots of very good comments and observations.
I would like to say that maybe adding a young child, clinging to Mommy and /or Daddy, to the "family" may offset the missconception of some.
Vern
BlackManWithAGun
Member
I know you hear or read this everyday Oleg but I wish I could put your stuff on a billboard on a continual basis to mentally slap folks with your messages. Good Job!
kenn
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