Why does Massad Ayoob try to scare people about potential law suits?

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answerguy

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Nearly every thread about self defense makes reference to the 'fact' that you will be sued if you ever shoot someone, even in a justified situation, and that it will cost you a minimum of $25,000 to defend yourself. I've yet to see any statistics showing any proof of this being true.

I recently purchased a handgun from an individual who had taken a CCW class from Ayoob and I was surprised when he told me he hadn't gone ahead and gotten his CPL. When I asked him 'why not?' he made mention of the "serious consequences" involved with carrying.

I finally put it together that Massad had 'scared' him out of getting the permit.

Why does he do this?
 
Maybe its because his primary job is as an "expert witness" ... more law court cases/law suits, more work for him.
 
Say what you like about the man, but I've been sued twice and won both suits because of the advice I gained from "In The Gravest Extreme".


Biker
 
He's trying to get across the point that it can happen, though it won't happen every time. He's making the point strongly because there are so many people that have no experience with aggressive prosecutors and think that if they believed the shoot was good, so will everyone else.
 
Self-promotion of a layman dispensing legal advice. Just as simple as that. Ayoob potentially causes many more problems with his unsubstantiated drivel than he helps, should one actually become involved in an "event".

Believe what you will; grovel at his feet; beg to touch the Hem of his Cloth. I'll take my legal advice from real lawyers. :cool:
 
From my experience, some people get a CHL because they think it's a license to kill. These are not the types of people we want to represent other CHL holders. If Mr. Ayoob tells people they WILL get sued (and yes, it happens more often than not), and it scares the cowboy gunfighters back to Brokeback Mountain, then it saves face for other reponsible CHL holders. People who honestly understand the meaning of a CHL don't care about being sued after an incident, because to them they recognize the importance of being alive and broke as opposed to dead and rich. Furthermore, it puts the consequences of shooting too early into perspective, and will perhaps "scare" someone into resorting to other means of survival (i.e., peaceful conflict resolution, fleeing, calling the authorities, saying "i'm sorry", ignoring the problem, and/or not getting involved in someone else's argument/fight).
 
Believe what you will; grovel at his feet; beg to touch the Hem of his Cloth. I'll take my legal advice from real lawyers.
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Well, at least around here, the advice from a "real lawyer" is to act as if you know you will be sued and called upon to defend your actions in front of a gun-hating jury. This from one of the attorneys the cops call to defend their shooting incidents, but it sounds eerily similar to Mr. Ayoob. He also lectures at CCW & LE training classes.

As far as proof that it happens, I've yet to hear about a shooting, lawful or otherwise, that DIDN'T result in a lawsuit.
 
Well, I'll tell ya, bro...

Suppose I posed the question, "Why do Answerguy and the other people on TheHighRoad try to scare people by making them think they'll one day need to defend themselves with a gun?"

Your answer, I expect, would be a logical one: "Because we've seen, and some of us have experienced, cases where decent people DID need guns to survive criminal attacks."

My answer is exactly the same. A huge number of justified shootings, police and civilian alike, end up in unmeritorious lawsuits. Some also end up in unmeritorious criminal charges against the justified shooter.

The more an individual knows about how criminals operate, and how to defend himself on the street, the more likely he is to avoid a gunfight and if that's not possible, the more likely he is to win the gunfight.

The more an individual knows about how BS lawsuits and unfounded criminal cases work against those who fire in self-defense, the more likely he is to avoid going to trial and if that's not possible, the more likely he is to win the
trial.

Finally, people who are not prepared to face the aftermath may fear that aftermath so much that they hesitate in a moment when hesitation will get them or another good person killed. The person who knows what the aftermath will be, and knows how to handle it, is better prepared for the situation when force does have to be used.

It would be interesting if those who say I write about these things to increase my employment as an expert witness, would explain what they're talking about. Exactly how does giving advice on STAYING OUT of court get me hired for the trial...?
 
And in Mas' support (and as a proud student of his, multiple times - hi, Mas! :D ), let me assure you that felons in prison have an enormous amount of time, and vast legal resources, at their disposal to sue anybody and everybody they can think of. Thanks to Supreme Court rulings, we have to provide them with a law library, and there are many "inmate lawyers" - unqualified, but with twenty or thirty years' tort experience at their fingertips - who will be delighted to point out to them possible targets for a lawsuit. I've watched inmates spend four or five days a week, for years on end (and I mean that - YEARS!), plotting and planning and filing lawsuits.

They do, certainly, target those who caught them, and particularly those who hurt them in the process. I've seen them file multiple lawsuits, for astronomical sums in damages, against the private citizens who shot them, the cops who arrested them, the DA who tried them - even the court-appointed attorneys who represented them! They even target those who guard them in prison - one inmate I know filed a million-dollar lien against the home and possessions of a senior female executive at the prison because she wouldn't approve multiple requests by him, and he considered this "discrimination" and "harrassment". He didn't have to prove or win his case to file the liens! Needless to say, he didn't prove his case, and will doubtless suffer further legal sanctions as a result: but since he's in for life anyway, why should he worry? In the meantime, she had to deal with a whole bunch of legal hassles (not to mention the impact on her credit standing) before the matter was resolved.

You may be interested to know that whilst inmates and those under the criminal justice system (e.g. parolees, probationers, etc.) form only about 2% of the US population, they account for approximately one-third of all lawsuits filed in this country.
 
Well, I'll tell ya, bro...
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Hmmm... your name rings a bell.




Suppose I posed the question, "Why do Answerguy and the other people on TheHighRoad try to scare people by making them think they'll one day need to defend themselves with a gun?"

Your answer, I expect, would be a logical one: "Because we've seen, and some of us have experienced, cases where decent people DID need guns to survive criminal attacks."
Click to expand...

My advice would be to carry because you might need it some day. That is different than what I am hearing that you will be sued if you shoot someone in self defense.

My answer is exactly the same. A huge number of justified shootings, police and civilian alike, end up in unmeritorious lawsuits. Some also end up in unmeritorious criminal charges against the justified shooter.
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Could you define what a huge number means?

The more an individual knows about how criminals operate, and how to defend himself on the street, the more likely he is to avoid a gunfight and if that's not possible, the more likely he is to win the gunfight.

The more an individual knows about how BS lawsuits and unfounded criminal cases work against those who fire in self-defense, the more likely he is to avoid going to trial and if that's not possible, the more likely he is to win the
trial.
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No arguement there.

Finally, people who are not prepared to face the aftermath may fear that aftermath so much that they hesitate in a moment when hesitation will get them or another good person killed. The person who knows what the aftermath will be, and knows how to handle it, is better prepared for the situation when force does have to be used.
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Not sure that I follow. How can I fear an aftermath that I'm not aware of yet?

It would be interesting if those who say I write about these things to increase my employment as an expert witness, would explain what they're talking about. Exactly how does giving advice on STAYING OUT of court get me hired for the trial...?
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Again, no arguement there.
 
let me assure you that felons in prison have an enormous amount of time, and vast legal resources, at their disposal to sue anybody and everybody they can think of. !
Click to expand...

Is this an arguement to shoot to kill?:p
 
Just to toss my .02 in...........


CHL holders will be sued (most likely) during any use of force incident because an ambulance chasing lawyer will take money "only if they win" to take the case because of the huge payoff potential....then you have the anti's who are well funded and motivated and can't wait for the perfect case to make an example of.

If you think CHL holders are special, think again...cops get sued too, even for use of force incidents not involving guns and sometimes when no weapons are involved at all. I recently heard of a 200,000,000.00 lawsuit for a surgeon who was handcuffed too tight and claimed that he could no longer operate because his fingers would begin to hurt stemming from the handcuffs being too tight. You read that right....I wrote TWO HUNDRED MILLION!!! Of course I don't think it settled for that, but it did settle for more than a lifetime of my paychecks.

Lawsuits are a part of life, it's the new American "get rich quick" for the unethical....so if you draw a gun, get ready to be sued....but that aside, work it out ahead of time that you are willing to be sued for your actions.

Lastly, being sued does not mean they will win, but you will always lose. A "no fee if no win" lawyer adds a huge incentive to sue...unfortunantly the same doesn't apply for your quid pr quo defense lawyer who wants his cash, upfront.:uhoh:
 
I finally put it together that Massad had 'scared' him out of getting the permit.
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I've spent a lot of time learning from Massad. Read several books, took 5 courses.

To the primary question: Massad teaches, unabashadly, everything that can and will happen when you pull that trigger on someone, right or wrong. Bluntly, some people review all that material - killing another human, autopsy photos (and for some classes, actual autopsies), natural psychological reactions, legal consequences, lawyer fees, being Bubba's bunkmate, social expulsion, etc. - and honestly decide that they'd rather just be the victim.

It's not that he's scaring people into not carrying, it's that he's letting 'em know exactly what they're up against - and letting them make informed decisions.

Would you rather encourage someone to carry without knowing what the consequences will be (most don't), only to ultimately pull that trigger and have the reaction "oh :what:! WHAT HAVE I DONE???" as they look at the body and get hauled off to jail and hand over their entire estate to a lawyer?

Yes, you have decided carrying a gun is the right thing. Honestly, it's not for everyone. Let them make an informed choice.
 
Preacherman- That 2% of inmates/paroles etc. being responsible for 30% of lawsuits- YIKES !
 
I'm not Massad Ayoob, just a very satisfied customer :)

Near as I can tell, part of it is to inform you what you might be getting yourself in for when you pull the trigger - personal, psychological, financial, social and legal grief. If you know all that you can make the decision and say "I knew that all of these bad things could happen. Awful as they were I still believe it was better than what would have happened if I didn't shoot."
 
What you said would mean to me that more than 50% of the time people will get sued when they use a gun to wound or kill in self defense. Again with no proof.
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Again, I included the words, "In my experience..." and not "Oh, I read on the internet somewhere..." :rolleyes:
 
FWIW: The official training standard from the State of Michigan for CCW training courses include the following:

IX. Demonstrate an Understanding of the Potential Civil Liability Actions That an Individual May be Subject to Subsequent to a Defensive Encounter.

A. Explains that if they use deadly force, they will be sued.

The complete file is at: http://www.michigan.gov/documents/CCWObj725_10608_7.pdf.
 
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