Why I'm no longer afraid of Gang Bangers.

[Kleanbore]

...I was addressing the OP...

Of course.

The OP saw someone shooting at !0:40 at night, and without having known his intentions but having seen no one get hit, now proclaims, apparently on the basis of that observation, "I no longer fear gang bangers".

He did, however, start a useful discussion. The statement that bad guys cannot shoot keeps getting repeated, usually without substantiation, with the predictable result that many believe it to be the truth.

Research indicates otherwise, as indicated here.

Here's a relevant excerpt:

Nearly 40% of the offenders had some type of formal firearms training, primarily from the military. More than 80% "regularly practiced with handguns, averaging 23 practice sessions a year," the study reports, usually in informal settings like trash dumps, rural woods, back yards and "street corners in known drug-trafficking areas."

One spoke of being motivated to improve his gun skills by his belief that officers "go to the range two, three times a week [and] practice arms so they can hit anything."

In reality, victim officers in the study averaged just 14 hours of sidearm training and 2.5 qualifications per year. Only 6 of the 50 officers reported practicing regularly with handguns apart from what their department required, and that was mostly in competitive shooting. Overall, the offenders practiced more often than the officers they assaulted, and this "may have helped increase [their] marksmanship skills," the study says.

The offender quoted above about his practice motivation, for example, fired 12 rounds at an officer, striking him 3 times. The officer fired 7 rounds, all misses.

More than 40% of the offenders had been involved in actual shooting confrontations before they feloniously assaulted an officer. Ten of these "street combat veterans," all from "inner-city, drug-trafficking environments," had taken part in 5 or more "criminal firefight experiences" in their lifetime.

 

[zoom6zoom]

And a point to keep in mind...and one that I make often...is that even with an idiot who can't shoot, you have to be lucky every time he pulls the trigger. He only has to get lucky once.

That's worthy of being a sig line, that is!

 

[mortablunt]

I still wouldn't think of gangstas an an unserious threat. Their preferred method of killing is to get up in your face, push the gun up against you, and then fire. Definitely carry when in the hood. If someone really wants to kill you, even if they don't know a Glock 21 from a Colt Python, they will pose a serious threat.

 

[Bill_Shelton]

J.A.D.,

I think your perception of these "Gang Bangers" is quite mistaken. Yeah...some of them, if not most, may not be good shooters...but if they decide to shoot you in the back of the head via an ambush, then how good do they really have to be?

You, like many others, seem to think the best way to neutralize these Gang Bangers is through "Conflict"....and this is not so. An even better way to deal with these "Gang Bangers" is to show them respect - the same respect you would show anyone - and then leave them alone.

I have lived near "Gang Bangers" for years and I find them quite easy to deal with. Once they understand that I respect them as people, then they reciprocate - they show me the same. Especially when I hold doors open for their mothers and aunts, and help their kids and old people cross the street - and little stuff like that - the very same stuff I do for every one! This kind of good will - this good Karma - catches on.

Respect...it's a two way street. It can save your life.

 

[mljdeckard]

I will even say I agree that most gang bangers are stupid, incompetent, lazy, and lack the discipline to become good marksmen. These are the traits that lead them to become criminals.

This doesn't mean that I will assume for one second that there aren't members or leaders who aren't dedicated, smart, and deadly. And if they DO spray, pray, and miss, this doesn't mean it's a good idea to give them a person, a place, and a reason to concentrate their hail of lead. Leave them alone. Don't go where they go.

 

[Nushif]

I have lived near "Gang Bangers" for years and I find them quite easy to deal with. Once they understand that I respect them as people, then they reciprocate [...]

This bears repeating, I think.

While I have never knowingly lived around the shadier folks, I can honestly say that the few people who have ever truly given me grief in terms of hassling and creating problems have notably been very far removed from the "lower classes" and especially "those people."
This is not to say I am some sort of expert, but I have been warned a couple times who I hang out with and where to go ... Usually after getting on great with the people there, or at least not getting any kind of grief.

 

[1911Tuner]

At this point, it might be a good idea to look at the other side of the coin. A good many of the murderous sociopaths in our past were very dangerous men when gunplay started. Clyde Barrow was reported to be quite good, and he wouldn't hesitate...which is largely how he managed to come out on top through so many encounters with police officers and other armed citizens. When you're facing a man who is both skilled with weapons and is completely willing to kill you...you've got a real problem.

John Wesley Hardin and John Henry "Doc" Holliday also come to mind...and in more recent times...remember the Miami debacle. Here were two men who wounded and killed many people, despite facing overwhelming numbers.

So...while we can hope that the average street thug is an incompetent lout, it wouldn't be wise to count on it.

 

[Averageman]

An incompetant street thug tried to rob my ex brother in law and shot his robbery partner in the head as he sat in the passenger seat of the get away car. The next shot killed a young boy in the lawn who was in L.A. from Texas visiting relatives.

It was all over a Gold Chain.
I don't fear their skill with a weapon, I fear their utter disregard for human life.

 

[Mike1234567]

I don't fear their skill with a weapon, I fear their utter disregard for human life.

And, there you have it.

 

[1911Tuner]

Word.

 

[KodiakBeer]

Clyde Barrow was reported to be quite good, and he wouldn't hesitate...

I don't fear their skill with a weapon, I fear their utter disregard for human life.

This is it, in a nutshell. I know we all think our training will make the difference, but were are all people with consciences and deep seated social prohibitions against taking human life. In most situations the time used up in making that shoot-don't shoot calculation is going to work against you. "He" has no such hesitation, so don't assume your training is going to always make the difference.

And remember, in any situation where that hesitation is going to work against you, the assailant is so close that his skill (or lack of) will make little difference.

 

[1911Tuner]

This is it, in a nutshell.

The best movie line that I ever heard on the subject summed it up.

"Gillam...it's not being fast or even accurate that counts. It's being willing. I've found that most men...regardless of need or cause...aren't willing. They'll blink and eye or take a breath before they can pull the trigger. I won't."

J.B Books as portrayed by John Wayne in "The Shootist."

 

[heeler]

Well spoken Kodiak.
How many times have we read here where someones main concern is...The legal system in a shoot.
As I noted in my first post on this thread,they have no consciense and more so dont give a damn about the legal system.
They do fear getting hurt and they dont want to get caught.

 

[KodiakBeer]

I think the best training and mindset we can incorporate is that if the gun is going to be drawn, the trigger is going to be pulled: Instantly, as soon as the sights are on the target.

 

[Creature]

I think the best training and mindset we can incorporate is that if the gun is going to be drawn, the trigger is going to be pulled: Instantly, as soon as the sights are on the target.

I disagree with this statement. It is not realistic and is very limiting to the myriad of reasons that could result in a lethal force self-defense situation. I will pull my gun if I have a reasonable belief that I may need to use it to defend my life. That doesn't necessarily mean I absolutely have to pull the trigger.

 

[KodiakBeer]

The reality is that criminal attacks on the street are sudden and without warning. We can certainly imagine scenarios where we have time to take stock and prepare, but that isn't the way it actually happens.

It may sound silly at first suggestion, but peruse YouTube for CCTV footage of gun fights. Those grainy vids are a snapshot of reality. It's fast and brutal.

 

[Mike1234567]

I've pulled and didn't shoot. That crazy drunk SOB is still alive and so am I.

 

[JustinJ]

Kleanbore: "Research indicates otherwise, as indicated here."

I'll play devil's advocate here and point out the study is of the absolute worst of the worst and not of your average gang banger or street criminal.

 

[Creature]

The reality is that criminal attacks on the street are sudden and without warning.

Are you suggesting that this is the case for all criminal attacks?

 

[Sam1911]

The reality is that criminal attacks on the street are sudden and without warning.

Are you suggesting that this is the case for all criminal attacks?

I don't think he was. But we do try to prepare for the tougher challenges, right? Planning and preparing to face the easiest ones really leaves you open to ... disappointment, wouldn't you say?

 

[Cop Bob]

1911 Tuner: The quote from the Shootist also came to my mind early in this thread..

Having dealt with this "Banger" Mentality up close and personal, I can tell you that most of them are unconscious when it comes to retaliation or use of force...

They are to be feared, if not a bit of healthy respect.. It is always the one that is addressed "To Whom it May Concern" that will got you, or somebody that didn't deserve it..

As far a degradation of skills under stress.. OH YES.. it is VERY real... One particular incident comes to mind is that we had an officer, a member of the PPC team, one who placed high in the Bianci Cup,who two days before the shooting shot a perfect score at the 25yd line... was involved in a shootout, at a range of less than 8ft.. fired 6 rounds, and only 1 struck its intended target.. it rendered the suspect a Quadriplegic. But the other 5 rounds? He later spent more time honing his instinctive skills.

Mr. Shelton makes some good points as well... it is all about respect... simple kindness is so understated...

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by JustinJ: I'll play devil's advocate here and point out the study is of the absolute worst of the worst and not of your average gang banger or street criminal.

I do not see any basis for that. They started with over eight hundred incidents and performed an in depth study on a significant sample. What is relevant to the discussion is the mindset and skill-set of the criminals.

One might tend to assume that people who shoot at police officers might be the "worst of the worst", until one reflects upon the conditions under which police encounters occur.

Unlike civilians who carry for self defense, sworn officers (1) make traffic stops; (2) go into bars when summoned to break up fights; (2) go into people's homes to break up fights or domestic violence incidents; (3) arrest drug traffickers; and (4) and so on. Almost all the people who shoot at policemen do so when they are approached by what to them is a threat and when they believe that have no choice.

Civilians who are involved in self defense encounters are almost always responding to deliberate attacks by violent criminal actors who do have a choice and who probably have a plan.

I'm not sure what causes so many people to disparage the ability of what they characterize as "your average gang banger or street criminal", whoever he is assumed to be, but it may be a form of conceit: just as almost all males believe that they are excellent drivers, many men assume that if they have a gun and have go the range a few times a year, they surely must be better equipped with the skills of violence than most people, and are superior to those who have robbed and killed and served time with very tough characters. That's the way it is in the westerns, isn't it?.

Remember that that "average street criminal" is an armed predator, desperate, likely not alone, quite possibly with military weapons training, and likely with tactical instruction obtained in prison, with very little regard for human life.

And remember that when the civilian is justified in drawing his firearm, it is likely that the assailant(s) will be so close that they do not have to worry very much about shot placement.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Criminals are like Forrest Gump's box of chocolates - you never know what you're going to get if your number comes up on the criminal roulette wheel. For example, I know of a couple of criminals who were trained and employed as genuine Tier One operators before they found new housing. While the odds are that's not going to be the sort of miscreant who chooses you to try and victimize, the stakes are the same no matter if the thug who turns up for you is a hardened felon or a first timer. The old highwayman's line from long ago was, "Your money or your life." Your life and the lives of your loved ones are the stakes. Concentrate on the stakes, worry less about the odds, and do what you can to be as ready as you can be to deal with it if your number comes up.

lpl

 

[KodiakBeer]

Are you suggesting that this is the case for all criminal attacks?

No, I'm saying the smart thing to do would be to prepare for the worst-case scenario, which oddly enough also happens to be the most common scenario for actual street crimes. Of course there is a whole sub-set of other events which might prompt you to draw a gun and also give you time to reason with the drunk (or whatever) that is presenting the threat.

But, in actual robberies, rapes, etc, you aren't going to get a warning. You're going to be standing at the counter when the socially disadvantaged youth behind you suddenly sticks a gun in your ear or simply starts spraying the establishment with gunshots.

 

[USAF_Vet]

I have lived near "Gang Bangers" for years and I find them quite easy to deal with. Once they understand that I respect them as people, then they reciprocate - they show me the same.

How true this is. I dealt with a lot of juvenile criminals, most had gang associations. I had to show them I was in charge, what they could and could not get away with, while all the time showing them that they were worthy of respect and why. On the inside, it sticks... while it suits them. Even when I had to restain them, I'd sit with them afterwards and explain why I did what I did. I was called every name in the book, and then some I'd never heard of, but afterwards, I often got an apology.

On the outside, however, all bets are off. I learned a lot of good lessons working on the inside, and can apply them on the outside. But that doesn't mean I might not get stabbed or shot anyway.
In cases like this, I'm respectful, don't make myself appear to be an easy mark, and have a plan to disable everyone I come in contact with.

Some of the stories I heard, which may or may not be detention cell grandstanding, would lead me to believe that at least some of these gang bangers know what they are doing. They know their guns, they know how to use them, and worse, they are willing to use them because they have no regard for human life.