Why I'm no longer afraid of Gang Bangers.

Status
Not open for further replies.
I had a couple of gang-banger teens move in to the rental house next door. They showed zero respect for any of their neighbors. They even robbed the other house next door...in broad daylight...on a weekend.
 
Kleanbore: "I do not see any basis for that. They started with over eight hundred incidents and performed an in depth study on a significant sample."

That is one of the main problems with the study as their selections are not random. Does the study include criminals such as the bank robbers who perpetrated the Hollywood Shootout? How about mafia members? Did they exclude alcohol related events by people who otherwise would not use a firearm against LE? How sophisticated of crimes did the examined people commit? The exclusion or inclusion of certain criminal types could drastically skew results.

The linked study is not indicative of the "average" criminal, whatever that is. Even amongs criminals killing a cop is taboo and most would be extremely reluctant to do so while having no qualms using a gun against an average citizen or rival gang member. Those who have do not represent the majority of gun toting criminals. A study that examined convicted criminals who have used weapons not specifically against LE would be much more informative for the topic at hand.

Carrying a gun is a practice in preparing for the worst case scenario and one should of course train for such. Even if the majority of criminals or gang bangers are not proficient there are some that are, whatever that number may be. So obviously one should not assume an attacker isn't.
 
I posit that anyone who doesn't have a healthy respect and even a little fear of gang members doesn't know much about gangs. Some neighborhood gangs may indeed be made up of incompetent underachievers with little skill or intelligence, but national gangs are an entirely different animal.

With regards to gangs in the military - the gang task force that I was on for several years had investigators from Ft. Jackson and from Shaw AFB because they do have a problem with gang members at their installations. We generally saw more outlaw motorcycle gangs with former military members, but the other national gangs (Bloods, Folk Nation, etc) also have former and current military personnel in them.
 
I lived among Bloods for 13 months. The Crips were in an adjacent housing development. I "trusted" a real estate agent to find me a decent place to live... but that's another story. There was a drug-related double murder, execution style, four months before I moved away. It was very calculated and deliberate. Two people... on their knees... one shot to the heart and another to the head. No misses. They didn't find the bodies until the buzzards had their fill.
 
Sorry, but I just can't take the title of this thread seriously. If you don't have a healthy respect for people who haven't the slightest compunction about killing you and your whole family, well......
 
Posted by JustinJ: That is one of the main problems with the study as their selections are not random.
Click to expand...
Do you have a basis for that assertion?

The linked study is not indicative of the "average" criminal, whatever that is. Even amongs criminals killing a cop is taboo and most would be extremely reluctant to do so while having no qualms using a gun against an average citizen or rival gang member. Those who have do not represent the majority of gun toting criminals. A study that examined convicted criminals who have used weapons not specifically against LE would be much more informative for the topic at hand.
Click to expand...
Do you somehow believe that those who have fired at police officers, the great majority of whom have done so because they would otherwise have been apprehended and who had no choice, can be assumed to have been less skilled than those who have, upon their own volition, chosen to undertake predatory criminal behavior? That appears to be very counterintuitive indeed.

Carrying a gun is a practice in preparing for the worst case scenario and one should of course train for such. Even if the majority of criminals or gang bangers are not proficient there are some that are, whatever that number may be. So obviously one should not assume an attacker isn't.
Click to expand...
A sensible thought.
 
I am wondering if you all missed the tongue in cheek-ness of J.A.D.'s post? I doubt he actually means is no longer concerned about the dangers of gang bangers in his neighborhood.
His post is funny because the silly gang member fired 10 rounds point blank and didn't hit the intended mark.

His post seemed to be along the lines of retelling an ironic/scary (bullet hitting his house) story.

Not that the following discussion is without merit. It just seemed to me from reading his post that it was an ironic story, not intended to actually convey the idea that he/she no longer has any fear of gangbangers simply because they are bad shots.

Anyways, carry on. Maybe J.A.D. will clarify later on.
 
Maybe J.A.D. will clarify later on.
Click to expand...

After 3 pages, I kind of doubt it. :)

His post is funny because the silly gang member fired 10 rounds point blank and didn't hit the intended mark.
Click to expand...

If you've ever had stray rounds coming into your car, place of work, your home or anywhere near you or your family...stuff like a gang member missing his target definitely not silly or funny. I think that was the point that many were trying to push across.
 
I agree with the OP on this one, with a few of the caveats the others have mentioned!

While I have also heard numerous times that gang members are practicing, getting military experience, or otherwise learning how to operate a gun, I'll say that I've yet to come across one in nearly a decade of inner-city law enforcement experience.

But, as has also been mentioned, it doesn't take much skill to shoot at someone from 2ft away. Distance is the friend of any experienced shooter!

I have experienced the situation that the OP described. We've had numerous shootings in my jurisdiction over the years, and more than one of these has involved two morons squaring off with each other in the 5ft distance range, emptying their guns, and not hitting anyone. How that manages to happen is beyond me, but someone it does.


Bill Shelton said:
I think your perception of these "Gang Bangers" is quite mistaken. Yeah...some of them, if not most, may not be good shooters...but if they decide to shoot you in the back of the head via an ambush, then how good do they really have to be?

You, like many others, seem to think the best way to neutralize these Gang Bangers is through "Conflict"....and this is not so. An even better way to deal with these "Gang Bangers" is to show them respect - the same respect you would show anyone - and then leave them alone.

I have lived near "Gang Bangers" for years and I find them quite easy to deal with. Once they understand that I respect them as people, then they reciprocate - they show me the same. Especially when I hold doors open for their mothers and aunts, and help their kids and old people cross the street - and little stuff like that - the very same stuff I do for every one! This kind of good will - this good Karma - catches on.

Respect...it's a two way street. It can save your life.
Click to expand...

Respectfully, respect must be earned. I'm cordial with everyone I encounter, until such time as I have a reason not to be, and that includes the crack heads, gang members, and the other forms of filth I deal with on a daily basis. But, that doesn't mean that I respect these turds, and you certainly don't need to respect these people to live around them.

Gang members thrive on intimidation, and they gain power when people are afraid of them. Make no mistake, gangs are criminal organizations, and many of them attempt to take ownership of their neighborhoods. But, the truth is that in most areas of the country these gang members have no desire to take on an armed, committed, and mentally prepared citizen. Granted, I'm not advocating the idea of playing cowboy with gang members, but I also don't treat them like they've earned something they haven't.

The OP's point about a lack of skills on the part of these fools is spot-on accurate in my experience. But, I don't think the OP meant to imply that he's going to run around insulting these idiots, or otherwise stirring the pot with them. I think he merely meant to express that he now feels more confident about his chances of prevailing if he ever did end up in a gun fight with a gang member.
 
Last edited:
squaring off with each other in the 5ft distance range, emptying their guns, and not hitting anyone. How that manages to happen is beyond me, but someone it does.
Click to expand...

Stress and lack of skill on their part. But then again, even stress causes experienced LEO's to do the same thing at those distances from time to time. No disrespect intended, but it does happen to the "good guys" and there are many documented cases.
 
Sometimes criminals miss their target.

I've pulled unloaded guns off criminals.
I've pulled unchambered guns off criminals.
I've pulled unchambered guns with 2 mismatched rounds in the magazine off criminals.


To date, I've never pulled a fully loaded & chambered handgun off a criminal. ("Criminal" being defined as someone upon which I'm placing under arrest.)


STILL, I'll never assume anyone's gun is unloaded or unchambered at the time they attempt to bring it to bear upon me.
 
Just an FYI for those who think I'm being careless.

I was being ironic when I said that I do not fear gang bangers, or being shot at. I have a healthy fear of what a bullet can do, because having been shot with a .22 when I was in my 20's showed me that I am not immortal.

When I first called the police, and told them that a bullet was shot at my house, they asked me if anyone was hurt? Nobody was hurt, and then they told me that it was likely due to poor marksmanship, more so than anyone being a target.

I was livid, because at the time, I thought he was being dismissive, and flippant. In fact, I told him that it was terrorism pure and simple. About a week later, after they re-canvassed the neighborhood, he tells me that it was one of those accidents that happens when people get drunk and do dumb things. I was still angry, and still pissed off that someone would have the audacity to shoot in my direction.

Then 2 more weeks pass by, and I witness an actual gang shooting first hand. I watched a guy unload ten rounds, at two people, and these people were no more than 10 feet away from each other. Missed all 10 shots. The other guy had a chance to defend himself, shoots at the other guy, and of course misses. The bar down the street from me, got a bullet hole. The people who live across from me, had their building riddled with bullets, mostly against the brick, but one through a door, and another through a bedroom window.

The thing is, I am dealing with this situation the best way I can. If I let it make me paranoid, then all of a sudden that fear rules me. If I keep my thinking clear, then I can be active to stop future events like this. Have started my CCW class stuff. Am taking the 3 tiered class because I want to be able to have absolute certainty that I'm in the right if I ever have to defend myself. My wife is doing the same thing.

I am not afraid of someone with a gun. They're just a person with a gun, and I have a 50/50 chance of walking away unscathed. That's better odds than Vegas. Being afraid of other people is how Gangs rule an area. What should be done, and what is being done about gang violence are entirely two different things.

If I had my way, every member of a criminal gang, would be rounded up and hanged publicly. They serve no purpose other than to be a cancer on a society, and or a city. If I had the ability to write laws, I would put bounties on every one who was in a gang. That will never happen though, as there is too much money being made in the drug trade. Bankers love that money, as do the police, and local governments. They can seize it, and then spend it. Stop crime, you stop the flow of money.

I've dealt with just about every iteration of law enforcement about what happened. I can tell you, that the notion of any kind of real justice being done, is an illusion. What the people need is the ability to adequately defend their homes and properties, and be able to do so without legal reprisal if it's righteously done.

So, for all parties who think that I'm being stupid, or lack a sense of humor, understand that if anyone understands the gravity of the situation I'm in, it's me. I'm more than prepared to deal with things. Have my lawyer on speed dial for a reason.
 
To the guy who says I need to show gang bangers respect.

Until a bullet went through a window and into my bedroom wall, I showed plenty of respect, and gave people their space. I didn't bother calling the cops, nor did I bother anyone. I kept to myself, and that's the way I liked it.

When the bullet struck my house, that was when the respect ceased. I had done nothing to anyone, and my house became a target. I've had people try to break in. I've had people throw stuff in my yard. I have trash in my front yard every day from little gang bangers who can't clean up after themselves, and somehow I'm supposed to show them respect?

How about I put some rounds through their windows. Will that gain me the respect I'm due? If I do that, guess what I end up being? A Defendant. I'm happy to respect people if they respect me. It is a 2 way street indeed. My problem is this. Someone puts a round through my bedroom window, that's not respect. Hell that's not even common sense. If I find myself under fire again, I will not be made into a statistic, by anyone. If they wanted respect from me, all they had to do was not put a bullet through my window. They could have dealt drugs as much as they wanted to. They could have shot each other for all I cared.

So if I am told it's about respect one more time by someone who has never had a bullet hit their house, through a bedroom window, you'll have to forgive me if I respectfully disagree.
 
I've dealt with just about every iteration of law enforcement about what happened. I can tell you, that the notion of any kind of real justice being done, is an illusion.
Click to expand...

JAD, what do you expect the police to do?

On [date] at [time] a projectile struck the S/E corner of the home of JAD at [address].

On scene I contacted JAD, who stated the following: On [date] at [time] JAD heard an impact at the S/E corner of his home at [address]. JAD observed a hole in the exterior S/E corner of his home, approximately # inches above the ground. JAD suspects the hole is the result of a bullet fired from a firearm. The hole is approximately 3/8s" diameter. The hole fully penetrated the exterior wall and partially penetrated one interior wall. No other impact damage was found. NO injury was reported. No projectile was recovered. A search to the S/E of the residence revealed no spent shell casings.

JAD had no suspect information. JAD could not speculate at a possible motive.

JAD will file a claim with his home insurance, [company] [policy].

JAD will provide a damage estimate.

JAD is willing to aid in prosecution.

I contacted two neighbors, Bob and Tom, who live at [address] & [address], respectively. Bob and Tom reported hearing no gunshot and saw nothing suspicious.

This case is inactive pending suspect identification.

Nothing further.
Click to expand...

Did you provide any sort of a lead at all? Did the police find ANYTHING to work with? Even if the "suspect" were "caught", do you think an AD is a felony? Will the suspect spend 10 years in the joint over an AD? Depending on your local statutes, the suspect may lack the mensrea to be charged criminally. Hypothetically then, you'd only have a civil case. With no witnessess, the only way the police would even identify a suspect is if he spontaneously decides to confess.

Should the police just lockdown everyone that looks "gangsta"? Just violate the freedom & civil rights of all your neighbors because you're pissed off? You have every right to be pissed off. The police can't make arrests just because your pissed off.

Given all the gunplay in your neighborhood, I think you just need to move. No CCW Level-3 class is going to stop that stray round.

If you're, like, witnessing people executing each other in public, then that's a big clue you're in the wrong damn place brother. Evacuate now. What, are you waiting for the zombies? News flash, the zombies will probably go around your 'hood.

Respect a criminal like you respect a rattlesnake, not like you respect your BFF. You're acknowledging the snakes potential to cause you harm, and you can do this without conveying ANY esteem for it.

Only you know what's best for you. Be safe, and be sure to take an objective look at what you value.
 
Sure, there are incompetent gang members out there, but only a fool would assume that all gang members are incompetent with a firearm.

Here's an eye-opener for you:

I was a soldier for six years in the U.S. Army and I served along side several guys who were gang members....and all of them shot expert with their M16A2.
I also served along side biker gang members and neo-nazis too....and they could shoot accurately as well.

Some of this nation's worse were actually trained by the U.S. Military.
There are gang members currently serving in every branch of our military and many of them now have combat experience.
 
Some of this nation's worse were actually trained by the U.S. Military.
There are gang members currently serving in every branch of our military and many of them now have combat experience.
Click to expand...

I saw an episode of Gangland on A&E (I think) that covered gangs in the military.

One of the featured events was a death in Germany that was the result of a gang initiation beating. I remember it well since I was stationed in Germany at the time. I was serving in Iraq at the time this occured, but we all heard about it.

http://www.stripes.com/news/sgt-juwan-johnson-his-death-and-what-it-s-meant-for-a-gang-1.63944


When we are trained to enter and clear a building, we're basically being trained to commit a home invasion. We are very good at this. We are teaching criminal gang members these skills, and they take them to the streets when they get out and teach their fellow gang members.

I served with a guy who was in the KKK, and still had their newsletters delivered to him. He got in trouble only because he brought that trash to work to read on his lunchbreak, and left in the breakroom. He got a verbal reprimand, but nothing formal, since he wasn't actively advocating the KKK. I served with a few guys who admitted they were in a gang. So yeah, they are in the military. They take their training, keep a low profile, then take their experiences back to the streets.
 
Last edited:
philpost said:
Sorry, but I just can't take the title of this thread seriously. If you don't have a healthy respect for people who haven't the slightest compunction about killing you and your whole family, well......
Click to expand...
I'd have to agree with you here. I moved out of K.C., Mo. in the mid '80's before serious gang problems and it was dangerous even then. I carried because it seemed better to risk getting charged with a crime than getting dead. I have to go to urban areas occassionally and I'm always on full alert. Anyone that doesn't take gangbangers seriously is, imo.... foolish. I love small towns in the middle of nowhere now.
 
J.A.D. said:
I am not afraid of someone with a gun. They're just a person with a gun, and I have a 50/50 chance of walking away unscathed. That's better odds than Vegas. Being afraid of other people is how Gangs rule an area. What should be done, and what is being done about gang violence are entirely two different things.
Click to expand...

Don't ever forget that if you train and prepare mentally, you'll have much better than a 50/50 chance against a street thug.

Even with the military experience that some gang members now have, it is still obvious that not all soldiers are created equally. Nor are all gang members soldiers (I'd guess this to be about 1-2% of all active gang members.

I'm a cop myself, and not all police officers are cut from the same cloth either. There are guys I work with who can barely qualify, and there are guys I work with who can score 100% on a qualification course without stress, only to fail miserably on courses of fire that introduce time and stress. Some of these guys had military experience, too. On the other end of the spectrum, I work with some officers who have landed in the top 25 at USPSA nationals. This isn't to knock the military, since some of our best shooters come from our armed forces. I'm merely trying to point out that meeting basic proficiency requirements in any organization is a far cry from being able to perform as a top-tier shooter.
 
I'm merely trying to point out that meeting basic proficiency requirements in any organization is a far cry from being able to perform as a top-tier shooter.
Click to expand...
Who's talking about "top-tier shooters"?
Sure, we're not talking about Navy SEALs or Army Special Forces.
But my point is that anyone even barely competent with a firearm is still a serious threat.
Any person who can load the weapon, make the weapon ready to fire, point the barrel of the weapon your direction, and pull the trigger is a serious threat IMO.
 
The best reason IMO for gang-bangers to join up is connections,selling drugs,guns etc...

Where else can you travel free, eat, get paid and build a new base of clientele?
They can go into supply and do more to help the homies than learning how to shoot a M-16. They probably have more experience than a week-end warrior shooter.


It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. - David Ormsby Gore
 
Gang members vary quite a bit. Some are how people often want to picture them (to make themselves feel better BTW) basically ignorant fools who are going to screw up what they are trying to do.

Then there is the other end of the spectrum. The gangs that are HIGHLY organized and regulated. Many of these members have been to prison where they get whipped into shape. There they are required to follow a intense physical fitness regiment, laid out by the gang. Its no joke, they are in really good shape and ready to fight. They also train in how to take weapons away from cops and how to hide weapons on their person and deploy them quickly.

These people are no joke AND probably not totally sane as they are probably psychopaths. A scary combo.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

P
  • Locked
LA gang kills own in crossfire
2
Replies
28
Views
2K
Cliff47
C
H
  • Locked
The rest of the story
Replies
1
Views
456
halfgone
H
H
  • Locked
Manchester England: TEENAGE GIRL SHOT BY BMX GUN GANG
2
Replies
34
Views
2K
mainmech48
M
theotherwaldo
  • Locked
Shots fired after home invasion near Donna (Texas)
Replies
2
Views
536
Art Eatman
A
P
  • Locked
Carbine gunsmithing, gang-banger style...
2
Replies
26
Views
2K
BluesBear
B
Back
Top