Why I'm no longer afraid of Gang Bangers.

[Bill_Shelton]

Don't ever forget that if you train and prepare mentally, you'll have much better than a 50/50 chance against a street thug.

O.K...so I defeat these street thugs (these "filth" as you call them)...my barrel is smoking and I am standing tall and Victorious...and then my nightmare begins! The kids at my feet are probably 16-20 years old...and maybe younger..maybe I shot a bunch of minors trying to prove themselves by whipping some old guy! I could be in some BIG trouble!

How am I to explain this...to the neighborhood...to the Police?

Do I run? Do I stand there and wait to explain it? Do I keep my mouth shut and get arrested?

Better yet...is there some way I could have avoided this crap? I think there is!

I think the word is RESPECT: it does no mean fear. It does not mean surrender. It is Repect.

I am not a policeman. I do not have the right to initiate force. I do not have the right to be a baddass. This is what I am.

You..are a Poiiceman....so please try to see things form the other side.

Bill

 

[two gun charlie]

My understanding, and it is limited by some internet ramblings, that some gangs encourage members to go into the military to learn weapons handling and tactics. That is frightening if correct, so please correct me if I am wrong - and I would be happy to be wrong in this case.

Ron

oh yeah , more often than not though it is a matter of a guy leaving the military , not being able to get a good job and then falling back on the skills the military gave him to better his living conditions. I prefer it if they just get jobs with private security contractors .

 

[Sam1911]

The kids at my feet are probably 16-20 years old...and maybe younger..maybe I shot a bunch of minors trying to prove themselves by whipping some old guy!

And the alternative was what? To get your head bashed in so they could fulfill their dreams of being the new "made guy" on the block?

I could be in some BIG trouble!

ANY time you fire a weapon at ANYBODY, you are in BIG trouble. You've broken several laws and will need to prove a case for self-defense in order to have your guilt for that set aside.

How am I to explain this...to the neighborhood...to the Police?

The same way you explain any self-defense act.

"I was attacked by THAT man (and this one, and that one, and the one over there...etc.) with this weapon here on the ground. This lady and this fellow here were both witnesses to what happened. I was in great fear for my life. I will sign a complaint. I want to cooperate with you fully, but I need to have my attorney present before I say anything else."

Do I run?

You may need to find a position of greater safety if you think you are still vulnerable to attack. But you do not run and hide. Contact the police immediately and get yourself established as the victim of a crime.

Do I stand there and wait to explain it?

To a degree. You have to establish that you are the wronged party ("I will sign a complaint.") who the aggressors were, who might be a witness, and point out anything you think the police need to see -- like a weapon that was dropped or someone who fled the scene. Explain very briefly that you were attacked, by whom, with what, where, etc. and then very politely "lawyer up."

Do I keep my mouth shut and get arrested?

No. That sets the entire investigation off badly and you do nothing to assist your own defense.

Better yet...is there some way I could have avoided this crap?

Maybe. We preach "situational awareness" here, and anything at all you can do to see trouble coming ahead of time and get out of its way is infinitely better than any response involving your sidearm. Our shooting skills are the last ditch defense after the complete failure of our perception skills and social skills to avoid trouble.

I think the word is RESPECT: it does no mean fear. It does not mean surrender. It is Repect.

And that's fine, so far as it goes. However, "respect" will not deflect all (or most) gang-related violence. Only some small percentage of violent encounters between gang members and unaffiliated non-gang-member citizens are going to be about someone being "dissed" or challenged. Many of these attacks have to do with more basic motivators like robbery or more unpredictable and unavoidable ones like assaults perpetrated only so that a junior member may "prove" himself and achieve status and rank within the gang. The idea that a respectful attitude would or could deflect more than a small percentage of attacks is probably wishful thinking.

 

[coloradokevin]

O.K...so I defeat these street thugs (these "filth" as you call them)...my barrel is smoking and I am standing tall and Victorious...and then my nightmare begins! The kids at my feet are probably 16-20 years old...and maybe younger..maybe I shot a bunch of minors trying to prove themselves by whipping some old guy! I could be in some BIG trouble!

And? You didn't choose the fight, they did. You were forced to shoot to defend yourself because of their actions. How in the world am I supposed to defend the logic on that? Incidentally, you are correct in pointing out that I called them filth... that's my definition of a bunch of gang members who have contributed nothing to society, and believe that it is their right to prey on anyone who they may perceive to be weaker than them.

How am I to explain this...to the neighborhood...to the Police?

How would you explain any other shooting in self defense? This is no different than any other defensive shooting. You weren't looking for a fight, and I wasn't saying that you should look for a fight. Since when do you owe the neighborhood an explanation for defending your own life? As for the police, you can explain this situation just as you would any other situation where you fire a weapon in self defense.

The hypothetical ages you stated are irrelevant. A 16-year-old can kill someone as easily as a 30-year-old, and in the area where I work they regularly do. Plus, we have some gangsters who are in their 30's. But, honestly, the most dangerous folks around here are the teenage gangsters who still have no fear, and think they have something to prove in the gang.

Do I run? Do I stand there and wait to explain it? Do I keep my mouth shut and get arrested?

Why are you running from a justified shooting? As for what you should do after a shooting, my suggestion is generally the same as in any defensive shooting: A brief overview of the incident and/or scene: "These guys tried to kill me, I fired in self defense, and I'll cooperate with whatever you need me to do". Then, respectfully request the help of legal counsel, and go from there.

Better yet...is there some way I could have avoided this crap? I think there is!

I think the word is RESPECT: it does no mean fear. It does not mean surrender. It is Repect.

Again, it is my opinion that respect is earned, and these street thugs have earned none. I'll be cordial to them until I have a reason not to be, as I mentioned in my original post. But, I don't respect them, because their choices are disrespectful to my community, and because I don't believe that it is my duty to relinquish my neighborhood to them.

I am not a policeman. I do not have the right to initiate force. I do not have the right to be a baddass. This is what I am.

You..are a Poiiceman....so please try to see things form the other side.

The right to initiate force? Respectfully, my rights to initiate a shooting are no greater than yours. I have no statutory right to be a "bad ass", I merely have a job where my duties involve the pursuit of criminals. Nevertheless, I don't have any right to use force at will, I merely have the right to use force (and/or deadly physical force) in certain types of situations, and these situations are very similar to the situations in which you could use force/deadly physical force.

How do you figure that I don't see this from your point of view? When I take off the uniform at the end of the day I'm still a citizen living within a community. My non-LE family members and friends are also citizens living within the community.

I never advocated intentionally stirring things up with the gang members, and I don't go out of my way to look for a fight (quite the opposite is true -- even when I'm actively pursuing them at work, I don't take a Billy-bad-ass approach to my interactions with them... I use only the force that is necessary to handle the situation). But, I'm not going to "respect" someone who has shown no respect for anyone else. I'm not going to turn my neighborhood over to thugs, and I'm not going to live in fear. I avoid confrontation when possible, but my safety, my property, my life, and the lives of my friends are not going to be put in jeopardy by anyone, even if they someday try to "claim" my neighborhood as their territory. That's my line in the sand, and they had better hope they never cross it.

My advice to you: Don't move into areas where gangs are already a major part of the neighborhood culture. If your neighborhood someday turns into a gang haven, don't look for a fight, but be prepared for it if it ever looks for you.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Bill Shelton: O.K...so I defeat these street thugs (these "filth" as you call them)...my barrel is smoking and I am standing tall and Victorious......
How am I to explain this...to the neighborhood...to the Police?

Sam and Kevin have responded very thoroughly, but I must admit that I have no idea of what you are talking about. Are you envisioning something other than a justifiable use of deadly force that was immediately necessary to protect yourself from the imminent threat of death or crippling harm? If so, you have completely misinterpreted what has been said before here.

Do I run? Do I stand there and wait to explain it? Do I keep my mouth shut and get arrested?

Well, if you are speaking about a justified self defense shooting, in which you had reason to believe that you had no choice but to shoot to defend your life, see this.

Better yet...is there some way I could have avoided this crap? I think there is!

Yes indeed. It is called avoidance, disengagement, escape, and evasion. In plain English, that's "don't go there in the first place", "do not confront anyone or argue with anyone if you are already there", and "get out now if things appear to be getting out of hand". But that just may not work.

I think the word is RESPECT: it does no mean fear. It does not mean surrender. It is Repect.

Perhaps you could better explain that. If a street gangster threatens a person with imminent death or serious bodily harm, I think it very unlikely that the victim will be able to come up with a way of showing "respect" that will effectively substitute for retreat or the show of deadly force.

I am not a policeman. I do not have the right to initiate force. I do not have the right to be a baddass. This is what I am.

Again, it is not clear what you are envisioning here. You responded to the statement, "Don't ever forget that if you train and prepare mentally, you'll have much better than a 50/50 chance against a street thug", which was, of course, intended to describe a situation involving self defense, in which the "street thug" has shown the ability and the opportunity and the intent to seriously harm the intended victim, and in which the victim has no alternative but to defend himself, with several questions and comments that do not appear rational in that context.

 

[Owen Sparks]

The thing that makes these criminals so dangerous is NOT their level of skill or proficency but their willingness to assault an innocent person.

 

[LiveLife]

Not sure if this has already been covered in the last 4 pages, but often gang shootings are carried out by new members as part of their "initiation" process and they may not be familiar with firearms and their skills may be poor.

Just because this particular seemingly "gang member" looking shooter missed his target after shooting 10 rounds does not mean that gang members don't have more skilled hitmans. According to SD LEOs I shoot with, if a particular gang wants someone dead, they'll get it done or keep trying until they do.

I would not let my guard down with any gang members as they can certainly return with their reinforcements and heavier arms (i.e. AK47s).

 

[Kliegl]

I think we should make all violent crime where someone is a gang member life imprisonment and or death, that would stop gangs in a hurry.

 

[USAF_Vet]

No it wouldn't. It would be nice, but that's just not reality. Murder often yields a life sentance or the death penalty, but it still happens. Being a part of a gang contains a level of risk that all of those involved are willing to take. You could heap heavier sentances on it, they would consider it a challenge.

 

[snubbies]

Moving

Prison is no more than a change of neighborhoods for gang members. He links up with his gang buddies already in the prison.

 

[J.A.D.]

Today, I watched an angry father stand up to one of the drug dealing gangsters in question. He was my age, talking to the drug dealer, who oddly enough is also my age (40's).

He took the man to task for putting drugs in the hands of children, and made quite a verbal stink about it to this guy. I watched this take place around 5:00 pm today in front of about a half dozen people. He told the drug dealer that if he ever found drugs on his 8 year old again, he would go over there and kill them.

This is the kind of filth that I talk about when I talk about the gangsters in my neighborhood. I want people to be clear that I'm not talking about young kids that don't know better. These are adults, 25 and older, who use little children as mules, moving drugs from one house to another. The reason why they do this, is because children can't be searched without a parent's consent.

These are the most vile kinds of people I've seen in my area. Fortunately this guy put drugs in the hand of an 8 year old, whose father isn't afraid at all to stand up. So with any luck, things may in fact turn around. When I, as a white guy take a defensive posture, I am considered the aggressor. When someone who is black threatens another person of color, it's looked at differently in their community. So, either way, I had to take a little joy from seeing this guy stand up for the neighborhood.

Turns out, the guy lives one door up from me. I might go take him a beer or something. He's my kind of neighbor.

 

[J.A.D.]

I have to say that this thread has some incredibly insightful, and thoughtful posts. I'd like to thank everyone for chiming in.

I have done my best to have a good sense of humor, because living in fear is how cowards live. We all have a bullet with our name on it. Whether it be Cancer, Car Accident, Rabid Beavers or an Actual Bullet, we all get our tickets punched eventually.

I am happy to have found such a forum, with such diverse points of view. I do however see that the consensus is, that it is better to be judged by 12, than carried by 6 where health and safety are concerned.

Thanks again.

 

[Maple_City_Woodsman]

The misconception keeps getting propagated and is widely accepted as fact by people who have no basis with which to know.

You are familiar with the 'Internet' correct?

Half of the net is porn and/or Facebook profiles with an FGAS user avatar. The other 1/2 is missinformation about firearms.

 

[Old Dog]

With regard to the OP: I think anyone who claims to be "not afraid" of someone else who's in possession of a loaded firearm, and willing to use it toward them ... is a fool. Or seriously deluding themself.

 

[Browns Fan]

While I may or may not fear gang bangers, anyone who obviously has intentions of doing me or mine bodily harm has my full attention. I would prefer to avoid places where such encounters occur. That is the reason why I dont swim in salt water; I prefer not to swim with sharks.

 

[Kleanbore]

This one started out with a discussion about some errant gunfire and a comment by the OP that has been misinterpreted; there has been some discussion about the shooting skills and other aspects of violent criminals; and a few tangents. There's not much focus now and not much useful to add.