fallout mike
Member
Imac, you literally made no sense. Its not regulated bc its just expected to be called into the police. How can a person come up with something like that?
Would you call the cops?
- Thread starter Tipro
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exavid
Member
I wouldn't call the police because it's not illegal to carry a weapon on a college or university campus in Oregon. With some restrictions in the larger cities in the North end of the state open carry is perfectly legal as well. If you have a concealed permit open carry is legal in those cities too. The universities and colleges tried to change the law recently but were rebuffed by the courts. They are currently trying to make an end run around the law by saying anyone who has business with the college can't carry, i.e. employees, contractors hired by, people with season tickets to games and such can't carry but others who have no business links to the schools can carry on campus. It will be interesting to see how this attempt holds up in court.
fiftybmg
member
Your perspective is typical of those who walk about unarmed, with no means of self-defence, relying on others to defend you if necessary. People who practice the right to self-defence are not intimidated by the sight of arms, and respect anyone's right to bear the same.
Familiarity with weapons, their purpose and application, gives some insight into the apparent motives of their display. AR15 slung over the back - open to interpretation, according to circumstance and location. Maybe the guy was walking down the block from home to a shooting range. Or on his way to rob a bank.
As a non-self-defence practitioner, you will be alarmed by the sight of any weapon, including a knife on a belt sheath. As the Californians I read about who wrote a letter to their local paper, in late nineties, expressing shock and horror by the people in Arizona openly displaying weapons on their belt while in the grocery store. I suppose if they were in Oakland, the SWAT teams would have been deployed, but in Arizona, it was just regular people buying groceries.
Familiarity with weapons, their purpose and application, gives some insight into the apparent motives of their display. AR15 slung over the back - open to interpretation, according to circumstance and location. Maybe the guy was walking down the block from home to a shooting range. Or on his way to rob a bank.
As a non-self-defence practitioner, you will be alarmed by the sight of any weapon, including a knife on a belt sheath. As the Californians I read about who wrote a letter to their local paper, in late nineties, expressing shock and horror by the people in Arizona openly displaying weapons on their belt while in the grocery store. I suppose if they were in Oakland, the SWAT teams would have been deployed, but in Arizona, it was just regular people buying groceries.
NavyLCDR
member
imac98374 said:
And that is why I would NOT call the police. Until ALL criminals starting finding certain places as inappropriate to commit crimes in, then I do not feel that there are any inappropriate places for persons to be able to defend themselves against those criminals. The actions described in the OP may be illegal, yes; but inappropriate for any reason other than an inappropriate law prohibiting it? No.
JustinJ
Member
That is the point. Handguns are more tightly regulated because its easier for a person with nefarious intentions to conceal one before comitting a crime. Long rifles are less regulated because its easier for people to see them coming. Ya know, and call the police. The logical conclusion is not then to ignore rifles in questionable situations.
Nicky Santoro
Member
Would you call the cops?
No. Some of you people should move here to New Jersey. You'd fit right in.
No. Some of you people should move here to New Jersey. You'd fit right in.
As stated, I would call the cops.
It's not that the mere sight of a weapon makes me, or anyone else here, pee their pants.
It's not that I want open carry to be illegal (I haven't read every post, or remembered every one I did read, so some people may actually want OC to be illegal). As clearly stated in the opening thread, I would want legal carry (CC or OC) on a college campus.
Learning self defense tactics has very little to do with it. From a distance (as clearly stated in the opening post), there is almost no way you could take down that man if it was necessary, assuming you were following the law and not carrying on that college campus. The only self-defense tactic you could need is the ability to run away fast and stay hidden, at which point you have conceded that this man is a threat, and you should be calling the cops in respect of another's peoples right to be safe. I only hope your hubris doesn't get you killed one day (or, since it seems you go armed everywhere, I hope you don't walk by me on a college campus with your weapon showing, b/c you know what I'll be doing!)
To those who attempt to say that I should be calling the cops on everyone with a bag. Yes, many people may be bringing weapons on campus in a concealed manner. However, its unreasonable to think that everyone with a bag on a school campus (remember those things, book bags? They generally carry books) is carrying a gun. I tried in the scenario to make it very clear this man was carrying a real gun, and tried to leave no room for doubt by making it OC. To those who say he was ROTC, at my college, the ROTC used m1 variants, and everyone here can recognize an AR 15.
To those who think this involves some meta question of 2A rights, you're wrong. Heller, in its ratio decidendi (I know fancy latin too!) ruled that prohibitions on carry on a school campus were OK.
To me, it boils down very neatly. In the opening thread I gave those looking for an opportunity to say "well he's not doing anything wrong in and of itself" (malum prohibitum vs. malum in se) lots of good ammo: i.e., "he's not doing anything," "just walking down the street," "He's not alarming," and I can understand the position of those who don't think some guys life should be "ruined b/c I was scared of his gun." After all, many of us have probably inadvertently (or knowingly) broken some gun law at one point or another.
However, to all those who wouldn't call, I hope that this scenario never presents itself to you. The potential price to be prevented far outweighs any inconvenience to this one man, especially when considering all the factors. As gun owners we have a responsibility ("with great power, comes great responsibility"
) to act in a manner befitting our exercise of that right. For example, when carrying a gun we have a duty (at least a moral one, in my opinion) to deescalate threats, and to not respond to insults or egging on. The man in this scenario has the duty not to carry in illegal and sensitive areas - V Tech was not that long ago, and there were over 50 casualties, with 32 dead. How would you feel if you had seen the V-Tech shooter with his Walter P22 and Glock 19, who, before the shooting, was just walking around campus, not doing anything crazy, and had not called the cops? Could you live with yourself? Would you really rather have people die than report a violation of a law you don't agree with? I know, I know, you don't think this guy is going to shoot anybody. But given his lack of respect for sensitive areas and criminal law (yes, everyone knows you cannot carry on a college campus. Everyone), I'm not willing to take that risk.I fully understand that this man may not be out to kill someone, and it would be regrettable if he had no criminal intent, and yet had his gun rights taken away. That doesn't add up enough though, given recent history and the scenario, for me to just walk on by. It's this kind of thinking that got me kicked out of my libertarian club in college; I guess things haven't changed. They were mad that I didn't support repeal of drunk driving laws, b/c a drunk driver hasn't actually hurt anyone!
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imac98374
Member
I don't know if I would consider an ar15 to be an appropriate defensive weapon on a college campus. Honestly, I have a hard time envisioning a scenario where an ar-15 is the right choice for a person in a public place in a civilian capacity.
Shytheed Dumas
Member
In a really weird coincidence, Fox News channel just reported a minute ago that an individual was seen on the campus of an upstate New York campus (RIT - Rochester) with a rifle. It has already made national news and the college is on shelter-in-place lock down. Somebody, and possibly many, people made many calls very quickly, which seems to moot this entire discussion.
Gtimothy
Member
You gave more information in your scenario than the OP did in his! If I had that much information about the guy walking down the street, such as reloading a mag and pointing it carelessly or firing it off into the air...Yeah I'd call the cops! Here in Florida we don't have licence plates on the front of our vehicles so that isn't even a suspicious thing. But in your scenario, there is enough to make a much more informed conclusion. I'd call the cops on these guys in a NY minute! Probably let them know that I had called the cops and the homeowner as well....from a safe distance with my weapon at the ready, not drawn. Like comparing apples to turnips.
Highgate
Member
Agreed.
99.9999% of Europeans would regard this whole conversation with incredulity.
To almost all Europeans it is TOTALLY INCONCEIVABLE that anyone would want or need to walk around anywhere in public with a uncased rifle strapped to their back.
Forget the legal rights etc you have in the USA which might make it technically legal - socially I would think it very impolite at best to carry a rifle around anywhere in public in this way. What point are you trying to make? "Hey I'm a big man. I know my rights." What about all those people you scare whilst walking around like Rambo?
In the UK it's difficult enough carrying a cased weapon around. You get some VERY funny looks. And if I took a cased weapon into McDonalds or similar I would probably be arrested.
(We have to keep weapons in transit in our cars, hidden, when we take breaks - and preferably locked down).
I think that the more restrictive UK approach is fairer on the general public.
zxcvbob
Member
Like the Westpoint graduate (I assume he was retired military) who let his CCW peek out from under his shirt at a Costco in Los Vegas? Somebody called in a "MWAG!!" and they evacuated the store -- LVMPD shot him as he exited the store (shooting into a crowd of people?) and then waited until he was good and dead before make any attempt to render aid. It was a good shoot, of course. In Los Vegas, they are always ruled to be justified. The whole investigation was just a character assassination of the victim.
I wouldn't want that on my conscience either.
fallout mike
Member
So tipro, I once again ask, do you call the cops when you see underage college kids drinking? Its against the law. And deaths attributed to DUI is a little more than murder.
jimmyraythomason
Member
FOX news just reported that the MWAG on the New York college campus was in fact a man carrying an umbrella with a Samarai sword handle. A lot of wet pants over that.
Shytheed Dumas
Member
...and the Rochester incident has already been resolved as an individual carrying an umbrella with a samarai sword handle. I think this only goes to show that somebody will call within seconds if someone is seen on campus with a gun, legally or not. College campuses are heavily populated for most of the day.
Sorry, would have responded above if I had seen it. And I would phone the police once they got into the driver's seat. I see your point though, and have trouble elucidating the distinction between the act of just drinking, and just walking with a gun. But rephrasing it will help.
Would I call the police if I knew that my neighbors were out of town and their teenage son and his girlfriend were over there drinking, and that she was spending the night? (Don't know how I would know this, but it's hypothetical). No I wouldn't. Would I call the police if he had one beer at 18 years old and drove his girlfriend to dinner? Probably not. If he had finished a bottle of vodka before driving? Definitely.
It's close to how I would handle the hypothetical posed at the start. Would I call the cops if I saw a man walking down a country road with his rifle? Certainly not. My wife's family lives in the country, and they and all their neighbors go hunting all the time. I unfortunately cannot live out there right now, but would if I could (I actually like my in laws - well, some one them). My wife's 11 year old cousin just killed his first rabbit and called us "city folk" to brag about it.
Anyways, would I call if I saw the man in the hypothetical walking down the city street with a rifle? No, unless there was something else alarming. If I saw a man with a rifle walking through a college campus? Yes.
imac98374
Member
Not everyone on a college campus attends the school, and not all college kids are under 21. Everybody OCing a rifle has a rifle.
Not everyone who is drinking is going to drive home. One of the nicest parts about drinking in college was that there was always someplace to sleep within walking distance it seemed.
JustinJ
Member
I guess it depends on who you believe but numerous witnesses reported that he was acting strange, refused to comply and drew his gun. If i called the police on our hypothecial AR carrier and he acted that way my conscience would be clean.
fallout mike
Member
Highgate, the more restrictive gun laws in england is only fairer to the criminals. But hey, at least yall fit in more socially.
fallout mike
Member
How do yall know they won't drive after drinking? I've had 5 friends murdered at the hands of drunk drivers in 5 separate accidents. It happens quite a bit.
fallout mike
Member
Tipro, we mostly agree with your op. Several people has turned it into more and that is what we are arguing. Some say they would call no matter the location and whether legal or not. Some say the law is the law and needs to be reported if broken whether you agree or not.
Ashcons
Member
Dang, I was just about to post about the MWAU call to the police at Rochester 
Would I sue you, and successfully demand your expulsion from school, for making false and/or misleading statements to the police about me? Yes. If I'm not breaking the law, and your actions could reasonably have been anticipated to cause a violation of my civil rights, the police lawyer is going to throw you under the bus.
JustinJ
Member
Good luck with that one. If there you are walking down a street with an AR15 and a person calls the police and says "there is a man walking down the street an an AR15" you may have a little trouble convincing a judge or jury false or misleading statements were made about you. Why? Because they weren't!
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