XM-25 to be fielded in Afghanistan

[leadcounsel]

http://www.military.com/news/article/army-to-test-game-changing-gun-in-combat.html?wh=news

So I wonder if this is a good plan. One the one hand, yes, in an ideal situation you can put a precision grenade over/behind enemy cover.

However, what does it really do that a 40mm grenade or AT4 doesn't? And the weight and cost are astronomical.

That precision firepower will come at a high price: It's projected to run $25,000 per weapon. Yet, in Afghanistan today, Soldiers are forced to use much more costly systems like Hellfire missiles fired from Apache attack helicopters to hit a distant and embedded enemy with pinpoint accuracy, Lehner said.

The Army plans to spend $34 million on further development in 2011 with a production start slated for 2012, according to service budget documents. The service had planned to buy 12,500 XM-25s, but a final decision is awaiting a program review by senior Army officials.

Officials said today that the XM-25 is a specialized weapon that will be doled out selectively.

"It's potentially an arms room weapon, where you go in and say I'm going on this type of mission, I therefore need this type of capability," said Brig. Gen. Pete Fuller, the commander of PEO Soldier. "So, you take [the XM-25] versus something else."

The XM-25 weighs 14 pounds with a four round magazine.

:banghead:

$25,000 and 14 pounds each!!! You're kidding, right!!! Soldiers and Marines ALREADY carry 60-80 pounds worth of gear. This is an ADDITIONAL weapon system.

And the REAL kicker - I remember when they were working on these a decade ago! They are supposed to be a 'game changer' in Afghanistan; however they won't arrive in significant numbers until after 2012...! Aren't we supposed to be leaving Afghanistan by 2011..? So what 'game' are they to change?

 

[R.W.Dale]

what is it???

 

[Z-Michigan]

It's sort of a grenade launcher, but more precise and flatter trajectory. The article discusses it.

The price is over the top, but I can see real benefits to having this weapon available. The M203 won't do all the same, and most weapons that will weigh many times as much.

 

[Abel]

 

[Jorg Nysgerrig]

However, what does it really do that a 40mm grenade or AT4 doesn't?

Did you mean other than electronically programmable fusing to allow precision airburst on the other side of obstacles to defeat troops in defilade as point targets at 500-700 meters as opposed to effective point target ranges of 150m (M203) and 300m (AT4) with only impact fuses? Nothing really.

The comparison with the 40mm makes sense, but the AT4? Surely you can see how something designed to attack troops in defilade would have a different purpose than a single shot weapon designed for light armored vehicles and fortifications.

Soldiers and Marines ALREADY carry 60-80 pounds worth of gear. This is an ADDITIONAL weapon system.

This statement makes it sound like you think this will be standard issue for everyone, when the section of the article you quote says, "Officials said today that the XM-25 is a specialized weapon that will be doled out selectively. 'It's potentially an arms room weapon, where you go in and say I'm going on this type of mission, I therefore need this type of capability,' said Brig. Gen. Pete Fuller, the commander of PEO Soldier. 'So, you take [the XM-25] versus something else.'"

While it is certainly expensive, it promises to solve one of the oldest problems in warfare, defeating troops in defilade short of artillery or frontal assault.

 

[Float Pilot]

Hmmm.
A one inch projectile with electronic gear inside the warhead. Sorta like having a metal fragmenting cherry bomb going off next or near you.
I was already under-impressed with the kill radius of the 40mm rounds from the M-203.

Somebody is going to be spending some tax dollars. Just not the troops who could use the funds for something more practical.

 

[C-grunt]

Hmmm.
A one inch projectile with electronic gear inside the warhead. Sorta like having a metal fragmenting cherry bomb going off next or near you.
I was already under-impressed with the kill radius of the 40mm rounds from the M-203.

Somebody is going to be spending some tax dollars. Just not the troops who could use the funds for something more practical.

+1

While the theory is awesome I dont think its going to be very effective in real life. Thats not a very big explosive and like Mr. Float Pilot, I was not overly impressed with the blast radious of the 40mm m203.

I think this round would work decently inside a building where the enclosed walls might bounce the shrapnel around a bit. But behind a wall or in a trench, I would think this thing would have to be pretty close to the badguys to do any damage.

If it has the same warhead as the Bradley 25mm gun, I retract my previous statements.

 

[leadcounsel]

While the theory is awesome I dont think its going to be very effective in real life. Thats not a very big explosive and like Mr. Float Pilot, I was not overly impressed with the blast radious of the 40mm m203.

Another great point.

Why not just outflank/outmaneuver the enemy. Or use a barret ($10,000) .50 caliber rifle that we already have? A barret will penetrate armor and cement or earth walls, has a faster rate of fire, longer distance, and is less expensive to buy and operate and much more practical.

But we're missing the MAIN reason it won't have any effect... it's because the article says it won't be largely fielded until 2012, which is when we're supposed to have completed large operations there!

 

[BsChoy]

A wounded man is worth 2 or three dead...It takes others out of the fight to help the downed man...this is a mainly wounding round it appears. It has merit but I would love to see what it does against the Taliban!

 

[taliv]

in the same vein as "jumped the shark",

i submit "defilade" as the inflection point when the US Military/Industrial complex switched its focus from warfighting to keeping up with Iron Man and Transformers

 

[Coronach]

I dunno. "Defilade" isn't exactly a new term, or tactic.

The XM-25's rounds will probably have a small blast radius, but IF it is capable of delivering them on target, it won't need to be big.

Why not flank them? Just a thought, but I bet that occurred to the people in the field already. We're not as smart behind our keyboards as we fancy ourselves, sometimes, and it strikes me as something more easily said than done. Why not use a .50? I suspect that they are. Still, hard to kill people in a trench that you cannot see. With this, if you know where the trench is, you can kill everyone in it- IF it works.

Mike

 

[Float Pilot]

A wounded man is worth 2 or three dead...It takes others out of the fight to help the downed man

A much repeated theory which held true for euro-centric warfare and even held true to a large degree in Viet Nam where 95-110 pound conscripts had the hope of being attended in an underground hospital facility after being shot with a U.S. 22 caliber rifle.

However, when engaging a 180 to 230 pound Saudi, Iranian or Chechen, who traveled for a thousand miles just to get the chance to kill his mortal and spiritual enemy,,, don't put too much stock in them worrying about making it out of the mountains alive.

 

[Al Thompson]

I can't quite make out the numbers on the slide, but if it's 300m for a point target, that should work. I had thought it was 800 (which is very impressive) but the figure below that seems to be 750m for area targets.

Like C-grunt, if that warhead is like a 25mm Bushmaster, good to go.

 

[LaEscopeta]

While the theory is awesome I dont think its going to be very effective in real life.

We are never going to know for sure if the theory is effective until we try it in real live. Or more to the point those serving in the military try it in real life. And those testing will be risking their lives in real life in the hope the theory works and it saves lives in the future. I just hope the guys testing it are real volunteers, who understand and accept the risk.

There is no progress without risk and occasional failure.

 

[Zerodefect]

You can laser range the wall your target is behind. Then set the gun to airburst 1m past that wall. Then shower your target with airbursting steel nasties right over thier head.

Evn if it is kinda wimpy, not much your adversary can do but run away.

That's pretty sweet. Except for the fact it looks like the gun from "Judge Dred"

 

[Sgt_R]

If it's a secondary weapon, the weight might pose a problem. But from the sound of things, it'll be one of those 'one per squad' deals. As a primary weapon, the operator shouldn't be carrying any more weight than the SAW gunner standing next to him.

R

 

[Owen]

it has the opportunity to be a game changer if it works out.

The Koreans have had a similar weapon fielded for a few years now, the K11. They basically took OICW and made it work.

 

[Z-Michigan]

While the theory is awesome I dont think its going to be very effective in real life. Thats not a very big explosive and like Mr. Float Pilot, I was not overly impressed with the blast radious of the 40mm m203.

1) Is this the most devastating weapon possible? No, of course not. A nuke would be more effective, as would be a 155mm shell, or even those tiny little 25mm shells can only penetrate a couple inches of hardened armor.

2) Do I want to be on the receiving end of this less than incredibly devastating weapon? NO! Just like having someone point a .22 LR at you, while it may not be the biggest manstopper you sure don't want to be on the wrong end of it.

I also think criticism of the weight is silly. It wasn't long ago that the average grunt's rifle was 11-12lbs with a single loaded magazine, and I haven't noticed average grunts shrinking in the last couple decades. Sure, body armor is a new heavy thing to carry, but radio gear and field rations have gotten much lighter in the same time.

 

[John Parker]

Why not flank them? Just a thought, but I bet that occurred to the people in the field already. We're not as smart behind our keyboards as we fancy ourselves, sometimes, and it strikes me as something more easily said than done. Why not use a .50? I suspect that they are. Still, hard to kill people in a trench that you cannot see. With this, if you know where the trench is, you can kill everyone in it- IF it works.

Mike

Flanking makes sense, but this is where the Afghan really shines: breaking contact. It's not easy to catch a guy while wearing pounds of armor and equipment at 8,000 ft. Especially when the guy you are chasing has a rifle, 2-3 magazines, sandals, is dressed in a piran tumban and has been running those mountains since the day he was born. We used to go out on ATVs after guys watching our FOBs...no luck catching them even then.

They are supposed to be a 'game changer' in Afghanistan;

For an insurgent, the point isn't to win by killing more of the occupiers...it's to make the situation non-sustainable for them by denying them time and space to operate in and turn the population against them. We've killed far more Taliban, HIG, HIK, AQ, AS, etc than they have NATO, but that doesn't matter, because each day we lose support and legitimacy and therefore become less effective. Killing the insurgents is great, but oftentimes it's counterproductive to the strategic effort. (say WHAT?!?! Killing the ENEMY is counterproductive to the WAR EFFORT?) It's extremely frustrating to the guys on the ground and goes against almost everything that TRADOC pushes. Sure, there's the COIN manual, but as anyone who has deployed knows, they don't train you on HA, CA, and FID before going overseas, but rather on contact, contact, contact. It's a different ballgame, folks.

 

[HorseSoldier]

A wounded man is worth 2 or three dead...It takes others out of the fight to help the downed man

+1 on the various "not really" responses on this old myth.

On the other hand, one wounded man, after waterboarding, can be worth the equivalent of hundreds of dead enemy soldiers but I'm guessing that doesn't look good on a power point slide for Congress and all.

 

[paintballdude902]

Target acquisition/fire control (XM104).
Weight: 2.54 lbs
4x thermal sight with zoom.
2x direct view optical sight.
Ballistic computer.
Digital compass.
Laser rangefinder.
Ammunition fuse setter.
Environmental sensors.

you know what all that stuff means to me? more crap to fail. digital compass???common man

 

[Zerodefect]

Thats why this weapon isn't your primary, and also why no one fights alone.

One or 2 per group in the field should help.

 

[Al Thompson]

more crap to fail

That was my thoughts about red dot sights several years back. I was wrong.

 

[Mags]

A wounded man is worth 2 or three dead...It takes others out of the fight to help the downed man...this is a mainly wounding round it appears

Really!? Do you really think the Taliban give a care for their wounded? IT IS AMERICAN MEDICS WHO TREAT THE TALIBAN WOUNDED. God, I hate hearing that BS about a wounded enemy taking more enemies out to take care of him.

 

[C-grunt]

Isnt this the same system that nearly killed one of the testers when the round malfunctioned and detonated right outside the barrel?