Are rifles harder to master than a shotgun for HD?

At home defense ranges, the shotgun pattern does not spread enough to matter, this is not the "scattergun" of western movie fame.
Aim a shotgun, aim a rifle. Not much difference I can see.
As the range increases, the skill needed to get hits with a rifle increases, but the shotgun goes to a matter of luck and then is out of effective range altogether.

Some shotguns are semi auto, but not cheap like pumps. My pump 12 ga was around $300 with an extended tube on an 18.5" barrel. Compared to a rifle it is quicker to become proficient if your shotgun fits you well. At 15-25 ft buckshot will spread enough to do damage even if your aim isn't perfect. If you've trained and practiced with a rifle the playing field levels. You can now get a decent AR type for less than the price of a decent pistol and shotgun.

This is a link to a shotgun spread test: http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-42-precision-shooting-with-buckshot/

It has been said numerous times: decide what fits you well and practice, practice, practice.

I don't believe so. With proper training, application and technique, there should be very little difference in using either firearm for home defense or other purposes.

Naw, it's just bad advice.

A 12ga pump gun hits the shooter with around 25fp of recoil energy IIRC. That means the average shooter has a purple and green shoulder after their first 100 rounds, but even more it means difficult follow up shots.

An AR-15 hits the shooter with around 5fp of recoil energy. Less pain to learn, faster to use.

The ONLY advantage to a shotgun is that it is easier to find ranges that accommodate moving targets for shotguns, so you are less likely to build up a "freeze and fire" habit.

Jim Watson said:

At home defense ranges, the shotgun pattern does not spread enough to matter, this is not the "scattergun" of western movie fame.
Aim a shotgun, aim a rifle. Not much difference I can see.
As the range increases, the skill needed to get hits with a rifle increases, but the shotgun goes to a matter of luck and then is out of effective range altogether.

Click to expand...

+1

If you can learn to operate a pump gun, a semi rifle should be no problem.

Are we talking about learning to shoot accurately or learning how to operate the firearm mechanically?

I think it is much easier to learn to shoot a shotgun accurately than it is to become accurate with a rifle. You can shoot trap decently with about an hour of teaching. Learning to shoot tight groups with a rifle at 100 yards is a lot harder. Now if you are using a rifle for home defense and are shooting someone 5 yards away than there is no real skill needed to hit center mass.

A shotgun is generally a less expensive firearm to gain a "repeater" that is reliable.

Less proficiency is needed to hit a target or we would shoot rifles or pistols at clays, even if we are experienced with both. That said there is also the fact that they have a much shorter range where they can cause harm.

If none of that makes any sense, take a brand new shooter and a 4" clay target placed at 5-10 yards. Now count hits per target, timed, and see if a pistol, rifle or shotgun is faster.

Also note how long it takes to clear any malfunction and how often they happen.

No.
Most people are concerned about hitting a target with a rifle. At home defense distance a shotgun shot wad typically stays together. If it opens up to a pattern it is almost guaranteed to be 3 inches or less. If your shooting slugs it certainly makes no difference there. A shotgun and a rifle point shoot the same inside of a house.

The things that do make a difference are noise and flash. Rifles are loud. Deafening...literally. They are bright too. The noise and flash can distract and injure the shooter as much as they can the attacker. Shotguns are more of a dull thud noise which is still loud. It not nearly as damaging as a rifle. They typically have less flash as well due to faster burning powders used in shotshells as opposed to the slow. Tuning powders used in rifle rounds.

The thing that is very interesting right now in defensive arms are the higher velocity pistol caliber carbines. 300BO 357 mag, or my personal favorite 10mm auto, get substantial gains from longer barrels used on carbines as opposed to short barrels on pistols. You essentially get the recoil and noise of a pistol, the flash level of a shotgun, and the power of a low-end rifle round like 223. PCCs are taking stronger hold in the market each day for a reason.

OP, whoever wrote that should no longer be listened to.

I would much rather instruct somebody in using a rifle for HD, than a shotgun, given just an afternoon or an hour or whatever. The shotgun will be heavier on recoil, heavier on pain (to the shooter), slower on follow up shots, probably heavier, hold less ammo, probably be prone to short stroking esp by a novice in a stressful situation, is harder and slower to reload, shall I go on?

An AR type carbine is a good answer here. Though if you can run it, a shotgun is a lot better than a handgun

jmorris said:

A shotgun is generally a less expensive firearm to gain a "repeater" that is reliable.

Less proficiency is needed to hit a target or we would shoot rifles or pistols at clays, even if we are experienced with both. That said there is also the fact that they have a much shorter range where they can cause harm.

If none of that makes any sense, take a brand new shooter and a 4" clay target placed at 5-10 yards. Now count hits per target, timed, and see if a pistol, rifle or shotgun is faster.

Also note how long it takes to clear any malfunction and how often they happen.

Click to expand...

I'd like to take you up on that bet. With self defense appropriate buckshot in the shotgun, of course.

Are you giving them as much time as they want to line it up and make one single shot?

Let's take a new shooter and put, 10 yards away, 1 yards apart, a pair of clays, and have the shooters hit them first with a pump action 12 gauge with buckshot, and then a red dot sighted AR15 in 5.56. On the clock, starting from ready.

If we are talking about developing all of the skills one might be taught in a basic carbine course or basic defensive shot gunning course I think the opposite is true. I think a shotgun is more difficult to be proficient with in the full gambit of skills and manipulations. Also shotguns are less universal so the manual of arms is often unique to a particular gun. Some guns are more difficult to use than others. IMHO pump guns are tougher to use than many semi autos. For smaller statured people a lightweight carbine is often easier to use than a shotgun with defensive ammunition.

Someone suggested shooting at 4" clays I'm guessing in their test they are imagining using birdshot and not slugs or even buckshot. I'd suggest getting three idpa targets and shooting an el presidente with defensive loads from a shotgun (particularly the often vaulted pump gun) and then do so with an AR.

I have heard folks who actually teach classes for each type of weapon express the same opinion.

If you are just talking about picking up a loaded gun and shooting it at something at relatively close range until it stops firing I don't know there is a huge difference either way.

Girodin said:

If we are talking about developing all of the skills one might be taught in a basic carbine course or basic defensive shot gunning course I think the opposite is true. I think a shotgun is more difficult to be proficient with in the full gambit of skills and manipulations. Also shotguns are less universal so the manual of arms is often unique to a particular gun. Some guns are more difficult to use than others. IMHO pump guns are tougher to use than many semi autos. For smaller statured people a lightweight carbine is often easier to use than a shotgun with defensive ammunition.

Someone suggested shooting at 4" clays I'm guessing in their test they are imagining using birdshot and not slugs or even buckshot. I'd suggest getting three idpa targets and shooting an el presidente with defensive loads from a shotgun (particularly the often vaulted pump gun) and then do so with an AR.

I have heard folks who actually teach classes for each type of weapon express the same opinion.

If you are just talking about picking up a loaded gun and shooting it at something at relatively close range until it stops firing I don't know there is a huge difference either way.

Click to expand...

In that case I would vote very strongly against the pump action 12 gauge shotgun and very strongly for the AR15 style rifle.

Or a full size 6 shot double action revolver firing .38spl +P

Respectfully I must disagree.

If I had to locate, load, chamber a round in the dark during a high stress situation, my Remington 870 is second nature to me. My Colt AR is not. I am not ex-military and raised to shoot birds, deer and such.

I am not saying I am normal, just that my 870 is simple to operate in any situation. Not saying a shotgun is the better weapon for HD, but easy to deploy.

I'd like to take you up on that bet. With self defense appropriate buckshot in the shotgun, of course.

Are you giving them as much time as they want to line it up and make one single shot?

Let's take a new shooter and put, 10 yards away, 1 yards apart, a pair of clays, and have the shooters hit them first with a pump action 12 gauge with buckshot, and then a red dot sighted AR15 in 5.56. On the clock, starting from ready.

Click to expand...

Sure, the red dot AR would be about 1.5" high on every target fired at at that range, assuming it was not sighted in for 10 yards, so you loose a lot of your margin for error from the start.

All things being the same, the win will be with the kid with the shot gun. Yeah, a shooter can hit with accuracy but there is obviously somewhat more accuracy needed with a gun that makes "a hole" vs one that makes more than one hole, or a larger hole, depending on distance.

We are talking about 9-15 .330 pellets on 00 buckshot (2.75-3" shells) vs a single bullet with a rifle or pistol.

If you have ever hunted coyotes, and had them running to a decoy and missed with a rifle, you would understand the "bonus" that buckshot gives.

I have practiced with lots of different stuff but I think most would be better off with something that dispersed shot vs a single round at hitting targets.

Would you rather have. Pistol, rifle or shot gun for this target? Note that it's movement is predictable and limited.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02FNsp4-6NQ

This was just brought up on Tom Gresham's podcast when someone called in with the exact same question.

Conventional wisdom across most trainers seems to be that an AR is much easier to learn and operate than a shotgun.

As an owner of both, I'd have to agree.

SwaneeSR said:

Respectfully I must disagree.

If I had to locate, load, chamber a round in the dark during a high stress situation, my Remington 870 is second nature to me. My Colt AR is not. I am not ex-military and raised to shoot birds, deer and such.

I am not saying I am normal, just that my 870 is simple to operate in any situation. Not saying a shotgun is the better weapon for HD, but easy to deploy.

Click to expand...

I don't think we are talking about experienced shooters who have developed so called muscle memory or unconscious competence with one particular firearm type but not another.

Obviously those with a lot of training, practice, experience, etc, with A and not so much with B are likely to be better with A.

jmorris said:

Sure, the red dot AR would be about 1.5" high on every target fired at at that range, assuming it was not sighted in for 10 yards, so you loose a lot of your margin for error from the start.

Click to expand...

No, actually, it wouldn't. **

jmorris said:

All things being the same, the win will be with the kid with the shot gun. Yeah, a shooter can hit with accuracy but there is obviously somewhat more accuracy needed with a gun that makes "a hole" vs one that makes more than one hole, or a larger hole, depending on distance.

Click to expand...

Buckshot at 10 yards doesn't spread much, and I'll bet the majority of "the kid" who do this will pull the second shot (and maybe the first) flinching at the recoil. If they don't just point in the general direction and expect the Hollywood shotgun pattern to do the work for them and miss them all by a mile.

jmorris said:

We are talking about 9-15 .330 pellets on 00 buckshot (2.75-3" shells) vs a single bullet with a rifle or pistol.

Click to expand...

And we are talking about an optic on an AR hitting a 4"+ target at 10 yards.

jmorris said:

Would you rather have. Pistol, rifle or shot gun for this target? Note that it's movement is predictable and limited.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02FNsp4-6NQ

Click to expand...

I would rater have my AR than a pistol or a pump shotgun with buck

**You may not have much experience shooting AR's or other rifles at close distances. It would be a little bit LOW at 10 yards, not high, since the sights/optic are above the boreline. Of course, as soon as you tell somebody that at home defense type distances it will hit an inch or two low, that solves any possible issue there...not to mention realizing that when firing a rifle at a home invader, hitting 1.5" below point of aim probably won't be an issue at all

basicblur said:

This was just brought up on Tom Gresham's podcast when someone called in with the exact same question.

Conventional wisdom across most trainers seems to be that an AR is much easier to learn and operate than a shotgun.

As an owner of both, I'd have to agree.

Click to expand...

Also that ^^

taliv said:

my money is on the AR, stipulating the it is properly configured and that the AR is shot first, as after the brand new shooter shoots two rounds of defense ammo through the shotgun, they will be yanking the crap out of the AR trigger with no hope of hitting anything.

after 20 minutes of instruction and practice, i'll bet their AR times improve by 75% and their shotgun times improve maybe 30%.

in a more complex test, like el prez, the AR would smoke the shotgun, even if you excluded the magazine change to make it fair

that said, the shotgun is certainly an appropriate choice for HD as long as the user understands its disadvantages (long, slow, over penetration, low capacity magazine) and is not unnecessarily mentally encumbered by Democrat mythology (racking the slide will scare bad guys away)

Click to expand...

And also that ^^

WestKentucky said:

No.
Most people are concerned about hitting a target with a rifle. At home defense distance a shotgun shot wad typically stays together. If it opens up to a pattern it is almost guaranteed to be 3 inches or less. If your shooting slugs it certainly makes no difference there. A shotgun and a rifle point shoot the same inside of a house.

The things that do make a difference are noise and flash. Rifles are loud. Deafening...literally. They are bright too. The noise and flash can distract and injure the shooter as much as they can the attacker. Shotguns are more of a dull thud noise which is still loud. It not nearly as damaging as a rifle. They typically have less flash as well due to faster burning powders used in shotshells as opposed to the slow. Tuning powders used in rifle rounds.

The thing that is very interesting right now in defensive arms are the higher velocity pistol caliber carbines. 300BO 357 mag, or my personal favorite 10mm auto, get substantial gains from longer barrels used on carbines as opposed to short barrels on pistols. You essentially get the recoil and noise of a pistol, the flash level of a shotgun, and the power of a low-end rifle round like 223. PCCs are taking stronger hold in the market each day for a reason.

Click to expand...

This guy didn't read the post...he's a dummy...look at that, it's me..

So ummm. Yeah... everybody else is pretty well nailing this one. I'm gonna go sit in the corner and think about what I did now.

-Recoil; better for most reasonable defensive rifles
-Size; shotguns are required to be longer by our stupid laws
-Rate of fire; better for more common self-loading rifles, recoil recovery much faster
-Accuracy; at defensive domestic distances, both are equal
-Terminal effect; both will go entirely through a guy with beaucoup expansion/disruption effects, but pellets tend to go futher beyond that to a degree
-Range; with a rifle, you at least have a fighting chance engaging something far away, on the extreme off-chance you would be justified in doing so
-Dual-use; rifles are simply more adaptable to a range of roles than shotguns, from defense, to sport, to...politics. About the only thing a rifle can't do that a shotgun can is shoot flying clays/birds (unless you're really damn good, I suppsoe) and possibly escape gun-banners the longest
-Capacity; considering your pellets are inside a ping-pong ball volume or smaller at most defense distances, it is entirely realistic that a shot will miss, even at near-contact range. Combine that with the potential for needing multiple hits to come out ahead (not even shotguns are necessarily one-hit stops, certainly not moreso than a high velocity expanding rifle bullet) and that 3-5 capacity tube is a bit worrisome in the same vein as 5-6 shot revolvers vs. semi-autos.

I am told there is literally nothing better at dishing wanton destruction to everything inside a small room than a semi/auto twelve gauge; basically a shoulder-fired Claymore. But that isn't really what a defensive weapon is all about

TCB

Louis Awerbbuck referred to the shotgun as the thinking man's weapon and the hardest of the three systems. The pistol was the easiest.

in a more complex test, like el prez, the AR would smoke the shotgun, even if you excluded the magazine change to make it fair

Click to expand...

Depends on how you score it. If the bare idea of El Presidente is to make four holes in three targets, I am putting between 9 and 27 holes in the target at one go. I should be excused from reloading and doing it again.

IMO, a carbine like the AR (and especially the AR) is more appropriate in the defensive role, except that it is going to be more detrimental to hearing. For all the reasons mentioned above, plus it's ability to defeat armor if you're that unlucky individual who faces such a threat, and because lightweight 5.56mm projectiles are less likely to leave a residential structure than handguns, shotgun slugs, and even many varieties of buckshot.

My primary HD weapon is a 7.5" AR with a Noveske KX3 on the front, an Aimpoint PRO on top, and a Streamlight TLR-1HP on the hand guard. Also at hand is a Glock 20 with a TLR-1. My shotguns? They're all in another room with my hunting rifles and milsurps. I have an 11-87 Police with ghost ring sights, which is substantially better as a combat type shotgun than your average 870 or mossy 500, and I still choose the AR.

For a new shooter a Ruger 10/22. I am fine with a 10 round magazine.