scenario

From the article:
1) Trost said police arrived at the station in less than 5 minutes, but that the robberies took place in just seconds.
2) BART police had increased the number of officers patrolling Oakland stations Saturday night because of a recent rise in the number of police calls. A BART police sergeant and an officer were in the station’s back parking lot on patrol when the station was stormed, Trost said. They were the first to arrive at the concourse after the crime was reported.
3) The images cannot be shared publicly, she said, because the attackers appear to be minors.
4) Robberies involving small groups invading stores and restaurants in the Bay Area are not unheard of. But incidents involving such large groups are rare.

1&2) 5 minutes from the back parking lot? When seconds count, help is only minutes away.
3) Why not? I know the law, but identify these little A- holes and let the citizens know who the enemy is.
4) Not for long.

Just me, I would always tend to fight. Not stupidly, but just to give bad guy the idea he is in for a bad day,

JeffG said:

Just me, I would always tend to fight. Not stupidly, but just to give bad guy the idea he is in for a bad day,

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And as they was headed back to camp
Carryin' a pretty good load
Who should they meet but the devil hisself
A prancin' down the road

He said, "You honery cowboy skunks
You better hunt your holes
'Cause I've come up from Hell's rimrock
To gather in your souls."

Says Sandy Bob, "Old devil
We boys is kinda tight
But you ain't taking no cowboy souls
Without you has some kind of a fight"

Vern Humphrey said:

And as they was headed back to camp
Carryin' a pretty good load
Who should they meet but the devil hisself
A prancin' down the road

He said, "You honery cowboy skunks
You better hunt your holes
'Cause I've come up from Hell's rimrock
To gather in your souls."

Says Sandy Bob, "Old devil
We boys is kinda tight
But you ain't taking no cowboy souls
Without you has some kind of a fight"

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Excellent!

Kleanbore said:

One who has expressed such a sentiment in a public medium may regret having done so, should the question of immediate necessity ever arise after a use of force incident.

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Point taken. But I will be damned if I will duck and run leaving undefended without hope.

Jeff White said:

Not every metro area covers their mass transit that way. Crime on the metrolink in St Louis is terrible. The train crosses many jurisdictions and the operator employs "security officers" with no police powers.

They do let off duty officers ride for free but I always reminded my officers that if you took metrolink up on their free ride, you were obligating yourself to take enforcement action if something happened.

Heck this type of scenario goes back farther then Bernie Geotz in NYC.

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In 2007 and again, in 2012, I took Metrolink to the NRA conventions in St. Louis. As I live in Illinois, I had to ride Metro through East St. Louis. Even coming back while it was still daylight had my head on a swivel. I was carrying a nylon "courier" bag big enough for a 3-ring binder. On the back was a velcro-closed pouch in which I had single-blade folder that I could open with one hand. And I practised doing just that as quietly as I could - JIC. The blade was "legal length" anywhere but on Metro where they say "No Weapons" - period. I also had a smaller 3-blade pocketknife in my pants but it takes two hands to open. Both knives had been sharpened to the point that I could shave the hair off of my forearm. As I had to go through East St. Louis and being a "middle-aged honkey", it occurred to me that a little "preparation" would be better than taking my chances.
Fortunately, nothing ever happened on those six round trips. And things have only gotten worse in the last 5 years. I'm not sure I would ride Metro into St. Louis now, even for free. I know that I haven't been on it since 2012.

JeffG said:

Just me, I would always tend to fight. Not stupidly, but just to give bad guy the idea he is in for a bad day,

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So do I.
If it comes to that, I am NOT above fighting "dirty" as the objective is to WIN. If I have to kick them in the knees (or slightly higher) to gain an advantage, I will. Double clenched fists to the head/jaw/belly also works. And, if you're built like me (short & heavy), head-butting them in the guts (actually, at the bottom of the breastbone) then raising your head quickly and hitting their chin with the back of your head to knock their head back will give you access to their windpipe. A quick jab there can put them down as (if you're good enough) you can collapse their windpipe and leave them strangling for air.
I do NOT advocate violence BUT, if it is already coming at you, take whatever steps you need to so you are the survivor. (Notice - I did NOT say "victor" as nobody really wins in a fight. What you are trying to do is to be able to "walk away" after it's over.)

Vern Humphrey said:

And as they was headed back to camp
Carryin' a pretty good load
Who should they meet but the devil hisself
A prancin' down the road

He said, "You honery cowboy skunks
You better hunt your holes
'Cause I've come up from Hell's rimrock
To gather in your souls."

Says Sandy Bob, "Old devil
We boys is kinda tight
But you ain't taking no cowboy souls
Without you has some kind of a fight"

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I prefer Roger Miller and the code of the west...

"It's the code of the west
you must honor your neighbor
The code of the west
to your own self be true
The code of the west
you must do unto others
Do unto others before them others do it unto you!"

So when the bad guys are a-trying, do unto them before they do unto you!

Deaf

I rode BART in the late 80s and there were BART cops all over the place. Clean, professional NICE subway, much better than the L I had ridden in Chicago in "A" School. When I rode BART I don't believe I had any weapons but my smart mouth...which would have gotten me killed in this scenario.
If on the light rail in Phoenix, I would have to weigh the options and chose the one that had the highest probability of survival while staying within my legal rights. One option which would have made EVERYONE mad is to let loose a canister of high quality OC - the enclosed area will multiply the effectiveness, but it will affect everyone, user included, but the attackers will VERY likely seek to get off the train as fast as possible.

I like Option G - Don't take the train.

50 to 60 attackers - with or without weapons - in the process of committing organized and violent assaults is a direct and immediate threat to my life, and the life of those around me.

Period.

Whether or not I'd actually draw and/or shoot would depend entirely on the multitude of variables which are still in question regarding this hypothetical. But the one factor I wouldn't be overly concerned with was whether deadly force was justified. Not because I don't care about the law or the taking of human life, but because - with disparity of force added in - it absolutely is justified. The minute someone ahead of me was violently assaulted, that would be my clue that my life was certainly in jeopardy. It's not unheard of for people to die in 1-1 fistfights, much less a gang attack.

I do agree with you though, OP. In this situation there just aren't any good choices. The only good response involves depending on everyone else on the train to stand up for themselves and fight back, or depending on your attackers to care enough about you to avoid causing you serious injury. Either way you're screwed.

It's like watching a herd of herbivores give up one of their young to their predators... if only they had the instinct to fight back as a group, nothing could touch them. But they don't, so being the only sheep in the pack to fight back is a risky proposition.

I don't take the train, but in years past I worked for a company that put communications systems on the trains and in the stations in many cities around the USA. Now I will not ride any of those systems as they have become polluted with the wrong people that should not be on the street but in Jail. There is now always an excuse for the crime on the systems and the promise to add more security.

IlikeSA wrote:
...50-60 juveniles enter and start robbing/beating people. You are armed with your regular CCW...

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First of all, what are the laws in the jurisdiction this is taking place in? That must be established first since it will govern the potential actions that one can take.

Second, what are the court precedents in the jurisdicton? Have the prosecutors and courts consistently ruled that the threat of being robbed or of being beaten (but not to death, remember you're watching what is happening to the people in front of you so you have a good idea whether your life is in danger) is justification for shooting someone?

Third, do you have the capacity to resist? You're carrying a handgun with between 8 and 16 rounds. What happens if you fire into the crowd and instead of dispersing some of them decide to take vengence for their fallen comrade?

hdwhit said:

First of all, what are the laws in the jurisdiction this is taking place in? That must be established first since it will govern the potential actions that one can take.

Second, what are the court precedents in the jurisdicton? Have the prosecutors and courts consistently ruled that the threat of being robbed or of being beaten (but not to death, remember you're watching what is happening to the people in front of you so you have a good idea whether your life is in danger) is justification for shooting someone?

Third, do you have the capacity to resist? You're carrying a handgun with between 8 and 16 rounds. What happens if you fire into the crowd and instead of dispersing some of them decide to take vengence for their fallen comrade?

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Well they were on BART, so that says it all. BART=Bay Area Rapid Transit, IIRC. San Fran. Rode it a couple times, back in the 80's. Wasn't so bad then.

Telekenesis wrote:
I agree with Jeff. Brandish and hope they run, and if they don't, start shooting.

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Depending on the jurisdiction, you just bought yourself a murder or attempted murder charge depending on whether anyone dies from your volley of fire. Remember, you are not simply firing into a crowd of your assailants, but also your fellow passengers and in most jurisdictions that indifference to who you might hit is an aggravating factor.

Oh, and we haven't even mentioned the string of civil lawsuits from any of your so-called "victims".

entroy wrote:
Well they were on BART, so that says it all. BART=Bay Area Rapid Transit,

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Yes, BART = San Francisco Bay Area. But, the OP specifically asks that we "Please list the scenario as it applies to you." So, since I don't live in California and am unlikely to ever be in the Bay Area, the scenario only applies to me in the jurisdiction that I live, hence the first question. But, even if we're going to confine it to the Bay Area, you still didn't answer the questions:

• What does California law along with any local ordinances in the particular municipality that this is happening in say regarding the use of deadly force?
• How are the prosecutors and courts applying those statutes? Is the prospect of being robbed and beaten by (apparently) unarmed juveniles being regarded as sufficient justification for the use of deadly force?
• Do you (or the OP) have the capacity to resist? If you go after a crowd of 50-60 with 18 rounds, what happens if everyone hasn't surrendered after you fire your last bullet? And in the case of the OP, after he fires his first six in a crowded train car does he have time to reload before he is overwhelmed?

Depending on the jurisdiction and how the robbery unfolded, using deadly force could result in anything between a grand jury declining to indict to murder charges. That is why it is so important to not only know what the statute in your area says, but to be knowledgeable about how the laws are being enforced by the police and prosecutors.

This is a tough one.

If it is a well organized robbery, then giving up your wallet and keep your wife/kids/whatever safe may be the best option until things get violent toward you and yours.
If you can assess the situation and they are just there for wallets, then fine, take it and be gone.

I am not ready to kill, die, or be beat up for my wallet.
I am ready to kill, die, or be beat up to protect my wife/family.

That's the thing about a well organized hit. They are ready, they have numbers and then there is you, by yourself (because you cannot count on ANYONE helping you).
This taking place in CA on BART has little bearing for me because it is legal for me to carry in this state. All of it including when I have to visit that dreadful city.

Engaging the bad guys could go your way and they flee... or not and people start getting hurt or killed in a situation that should have been a business transaction style robbery.

If it looks like they are trying to kill folks on the train, then its game on and what happens happens.

Indeed it's a tough area. One of the toughest things is you are depending on predicting the behavior of violent, irrational people. If you decide they aren't going to really hurt anyone and guess wrong, you have thrown away your chance to protect yourself. If you decide they ARE going to hurt or kill people, you wind up having to prove it in court.

I've thought about this one a lot-
I carry both my county and my state permit in my wallet- What if they are able to read... and see I have a permit and that means a gun.... I have thought about finding a way to carry them like dog tags- when I am forced travel to unsafe areas for business I often put them in a separate pocket just in case but I have forgotten them and put them in the washer. If they just want my wallet and phone they can have them but the tables would turn quickly.

Ghost In The Fog said:

I've thought about this one a lot-
I carry both my county and my state permit in my wallet- What if they are able to read... and see I have a permit and that means a gun.... I have thought about finding a way to carry them like dog tags- when I am forced travel to unsafe areas for business I often put them in a separate pocket just in case but I have forgotten them and put them in the washer. If they just want my wallet and phone they can have them but the tables would turn quickly.

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When I went through the NRA Refuse To Be a Victim class and the follow-on Instructor Training suggested we all carry a "drop wallet" with some expired credit cards and a little cash for realism just in case we decided to comply first.

Plan2Live said:

When I went through the NRA Refuse To Be a Victim class and the follow-on Instructor Training suggested we all carry a "drop wallet" with some expired credit cards and a little cash for realism just in case we decided to comply first.

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That is a really good idea- but soon I will need Batmans utility belt to carry all of my crap to prepare for an event that will never happen! LOL.
In thinking about the drop wallet though, I think it is a great idea but "what if"- yeah, yeah, what if schmut if... other than on a BART train, and I know that this is what this thread is about, but I think this applies as far as the gang mentality goes. Wouldn't a bad guy who is good at his, uhm,... job know that when I reached in to give him my wallet it would not be the same pocket I put my wallet in after I used it to pay for gas, groceries, food etc. if he was watching me? I know that is taking it to the extreme but isn't that what we all prepare for?
What if you have a second wallet, how do you hide it yet still be able to use it? Growing up in less than a safe neighborhood in Southern (K) California when I was in junior high I used to have my lunch money taken all too frequently. The local wanna be gang guys used to be waiting at the back gate to the school for the scrawny kid that was alone and they would demand my money and anything else shiny that might interest them. When I gave up my money, they frequently stuck their hands in my pockets to find out what else I was trying to withhold from them- which usually contributed to the severity of the beating I would take.
I did learn one valuable life lesson from all of those friendly interactions with the local V-13 that when I did finally have the courage to stand up for myself when confronted by a single gang member, it was me who was expelled from junior high and the gang rolled on. When I was "allowed" to return to public high school and after the initial confrontation by the same gang members, I was kind of off limits and we ignored each other for the rest of our time in school together. Weird- but yet another of the many hard knocks on the road to adulthood and applied to everyday life.

Ghost - there was a similar situation on a school bus for the high school I used to go to a couple of years ago.
One kid starts pounding on another kid near the back of the bus for no apparent reason. First kid is the smaller kid and "black". Bigger kid is white. Bigger kid did NOTHING to defend himself because the school has a policy that, even if you are just defending yourself, YOU get suspended as well !!
The blasted schools are teaching our kids to be WIMPS and not to defend themselves when attacked !
I guess the "powers that be" want a nice, subservient class of wage-slaves.

IlikeSA said:

You're seated on this train car as either a single person or a married person with or without children, when 50-60 juveniles enter and start robbing/beating people. You are armed with your regular CCW (its not necessarily California, for the purposes of the scenario). Please list the scenario as it applies to you.

Part of developing strategies and tactics is placing oneself in a scenario and making the decision in advance. Please play out some alternative scenarios, and discuss the best options.

http://www.sfchronicle.com/crime/article/BART-takeover-robbery-50-to-60-teens-swarm-11094745.php

For me: I typically carry a .357 magnum revolver with 12 extra rounds for reloads. I am married with no children, and my wife does not carry.

Option A: comply and hope that we don't get hurt.
Option B: draw and start shooting.
Option C: attempt hand to hand
Option D: run and hope my wife can keep up
Option E: run, and try to cover my wife's retreat
Option F: brandish and see if they will run, if not, start firing at my attackers.

I don't think there is a good option here. What are other alternatives and what would you do?

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I've gotten in the habit of scoping out escape routes in most situations and trying to stay out of situations without escape routes. Naturally, I tend to avoid cruise ships, airplanes, and trains. When I do end up on a bus or a train I scope out exit strategies before taking a seat.

Most Amtrack trains have a number of cars strung together, so there is usually a chance to exit one car and enter another. I like all the odds much better by escaping the car with trouble and setting up in the next car (or the furthest one I can get to). Covering the door with a drawn pistol maximize the odds and creates a bottleneck for all the bad guys to go through. Once the first one or two get shot, I think the rest will retreat from there.