About Home Defense gun selection - why no shotshell revolvers

From the Judge:

Brassfetcher:
Federal 4-pellet 000 (2.5")---------15.2" (bare 10% gelatin, avg. 3 shots)
Federal 4-pellet 000 (2.5")---------11.4" (4-layer denim, 10% gelatin, avg. 3 shots)
2.5" barrel Taurus Judge Public Defender

ShootingTheBull410:
Federal 4-pellet 000 (2.5")-----------19.03" (bare ClearBallistics gelatin)
NobelSport 3-pellet .40" buck (2.5")----------17.54" (bare ClearBallistics gelatin)
2.5" barrel Taurus Judge Public Defender

Federal 5-pellet 000 (3")------------approx. 15.6" (13.25 to 17.5", bare 10% gelatin + ClearBallistics gelatin, avg. of 6 shots)
6.5" barrel Taurus Raging Judge Magnum

I think all this falls under do what makes you feel good. One day I may get a 410 shot shell packing pistol. But mostly I like the Bond Arms. Only really for snakes. I may get some pdx1 and carry it for back up. But social work seems best done with a performance I trust. I just feel better with my 9mm even if it's full of FMJ. I always get amused when I see threads like this. Basicly it was picking a fight from jump. I trust x why don't you see more x being recommended. Because half the world would laugh at you for picking x. Look everyone needs to and likely will do what makes them feel best. I doubt anyone is going to change their mind because of an Internet forum. I wouldn't grab a 410 for self deffense, smallest shot shell I'd go for is 20. But that's just how I feel. Sure you can get a gel test to look good on paper. But I trust what I've seen. 410 is for squirrels and rabbits. Personal opinion.

Goosey said:

From the Judge:

Brassfetcher:
Federal 4-pellet 000 (2.5")---------15.2" (bare 10% gelatin, avg. 3 shots)
Federal 4-pellet 000 (2.5")---------11.4" (4-layer denim, 10% gelatin, avg. 3 shots)
2.5" barrel Taurus Judge Public Defender

ShootingTheBull410:
Federal 4-pellet 000 (2.5")-----------19.03" (bare ClearBallistics gelatin)
NobelSport 3-pellet .40" buck (2.5")----------17.54" (bare ClearBallistics gelatin)
2.5" barrel Taurus Judge Public Defender

Federal 5-pellet 000 (3")------------approx. 15.6" (13.25 to 17.5", bare 10% gelatin + ClearBallistics gelatin, avg. of 6 shots)
6.5" barrel Taurus Raging Judge Magnum

Click to expand...

reckon any of em would break the skin
...................and leave a mark

I would like to know the distances.....this is the one thing where IMHO all these poo poo people miss the mark (get it) on these type of items.

How big is your living room....10-20 FEET. What is the pattern going to be at say that distance...half that distance....would it stop mr. bad guy. Me thinks it would.

Which perp would be the deadest, one killed with a Sig P226 a Kimber 1911 or a Judge.

Click to expand...

But I'm sure you can see why that's a specious argument. Presupposing the attacker IS dead, to judge how well whatever killed him did the job. It doesn't help determine how likely that choice of gun would be to get to that basic threshold of stopping/killing the threat.

If you've got a die with four sides and a die with 100 sides, either one of them might roll the number 3. If you manage to roll a 3 with both, you can then say neither one did a better job of rolling a 3. But you'd have to be off your rocker to conclude that both were equally good choices if you really wanted to roll a 3 -- or that you'd be equally likely to get a 3 the next time.

Goosey is providing actual information that indicates decent results. That's helpful, and might indicate that -- if that gun is as easy to shoot, as easy and fast to hit with, and if we discount the idea that you might actually need more than five shots, and if we do religiously limit the distance of engagement we're considering -- that type of load may be AS GOOD as a conventional 9mm, .40, .45 etc. round.

Are there BENEFITS though to the choice? Are there any reasons why, accepting that the shotshell revolver might be as good (within limits), one would choose it out of the available options?

If you've got (let's say) a Glock, and AR-15, a Mossberg 500, and/or a S&W 686 -- what would encourage you to decide to select the Judge above those for self defense?

I call bs

Click to expand...

Sorry, I don't understand. You call "BS" on what?

The Judge is a gimmick gun that turned out to have one or two effective loads.

As a full sized shotgun, the .410 is recommended as more of an expert's gun (due to the low payload), if low payload is required not to mangle game, or if medical issues require low recoil. They are not recommended for beginners since the low payload makes it difficult to hit with.

Chambering the .410 in a short barreled revolver doesn't fix this, and then you also get to brave Taurus' legendary quality control.

As demonstrated above, Federal's 000 buck is nothing to sneeze at, and it actually patterns surprisingly well. The problem is that everything other than Federal's 000 or a .45 LC (or the Governor's .45 ACP) presents some combination of excessive spread and/or insufficient penetration.

I really only see three reasons to buy a Judge:
1. You don't know better.
2. You have a particular interest in Federal 000 buck (it's pretty mean)
3. You want more horsepower (snakepower?) than shot capsules supply.

Otherwise, I suspect you'd be better off with a dedicated .44 or .45 revolver, or birdshot capsules for something you already own.

Sam1911 said:

But I'm sure you can see why that's a specious argument. Presupposing the attacker IS dead, to judge how well whatever killed him did the job. It doesn't help determine how likely that choice of gun would be to get to that basic threshold of stopping/killing the threat.

If you've got a die with four sides and a die with 100 sides, either one of them might roll the number 3. If you manage to roll a 3 with both, you can then say neither one did a better job of rolling a 3. But you'd have to be off your rocker to conclude that both were equally good choices if you really wanted to roll a 3 -- or that you'd be equally likely to get a 3 the next time.

Goosey is providing actual information that indicates decent results. That's helpful, and might indicate that -- if that gun is as easy to shoot, as easy and fast to hit with, and if we discount the idea that you might actually need more than five shots, and if we do religiously limit the distance of engagement we're considering -- that type of load may be AS GOOD as a conventional 9mm, .40, .45 etc. round.

Are there BENEFITS though to the choice? Are there any reasons why, accepting that the shotshell revolver might be as good (within limits), one would choose it out of the available options?

If you've got (let's say) a Glock, and AR-15, a Mossberg 500, and/or a S&W 686 -- what would encourage you to decide to select the Judge above those for self defense?

Click to expand...

Sam I seriously believe I have touched a nerve with you. Seems like my replys draw the most attention from you. I really do enjoy reading your posts but I'm going to have to consider getting a translator. A lot of your words are above my education level. What I understand most is what I see with my own eyes be it scientific testing or my own homebrewed testing. Also what the Fed 000 load puts out the end of the barrel I hesitate to call a pellet OOOO.

Me kinda thinks gel testing can only be considered usefull information if the the gun and ammo are the normal platforms and not something shot from a Gimmick.

Sam I seriously believe I have touched a nerve with you. Seems like my replys draw the most attention from you. I really do enjoy reading your posts but I'm going to have to consider getting a translator. A lot of your words are above my education level.

Click to expand...

I apologize. You've posted some strong sounding statements about how much you approve of this gun style for self defense. I'm asking if you have reasons that you believe this guns is MORE suitable for self defense than any of the much more commonly chosen types.

If you like the gun, that's great. You may really be bored or even put off by something common like a Glock in 9mm or a pump shotgun in 20 or 12 ga. But would you be able to suggest a reason why a Judge would be BETTER for self-defense than one of those more boring options?

And if not, why would you suggest someone (or choose for yourself to) select a gun that isn't as good in some ways when the shots you (might have to) fire would be by far the most crucial of your entire life?

What I understand most is what I see with my own eyes be it scientific testing or my own homebrewed testing.

Click to expand...

And what have you seen? What performance have you tested and why do you feel it was better than a 230 gr. .45 JHP slug at 850 fps, or a 125 gr. JHP at 1,100 fps, or whatever other self-defense load you might choose?

Also what the Fed 000 load puts out the end of the barrel I hesitate to call a pellet OOOO.

Click to expand...

An 000 buckshot is .36 caliber, round without any expansive cavity, and weighs 70 gr. Four of them leave the barrel at about 1,200 fps. from the Federal load.

Most folks would say that a cartridge that hit an attacker with a 70 gr. .36 caliber bullet would be a pretty borderline choice for defense. Something like a .32 ACP, except firing round balls like a colonial era musket, instead of conical hollow points that have been developed for better performance over the last 100 years. Now what happens when four hit at once? Well, the effect certainly will be greater, but how much is hard to quantify. It certainly isn't the same as a 280 gr. slug hitting the same target. Nor something expansive like a JHP.

So about the best we can possibly say, I think, is that it might be AS GOOD as another common round, under limited circumstances. But the gun firing it is big, heavy, and only holds five rounds.

So...why does it become THE choice?

On the the left side-------OMG way too much over kill
On the right side----------OMG your kidding right. Can barely incapaciate a snake

Me kinda thinks gel testing can only be considered usefull information if the the gun and ammo are the normal platforms and not something shot from a Gimmick.

Click to expand...

Well, gel testing is one of the ways we get some idea of how bullets damage something sort of like real tissue. If we're going to compare apples to apples, it gets somewhat closer than almost anything else we have to leveling the field.

But your point about the gun or platform is extremely important.

99% of an adequate defensive shot is in your capacity to hit the target under great stress, and in a vital spot. So, figuring out whether that style of firearm helps you to do that fastest and bestest is really important. I may not like 9mm Glocks much, but if I can put faster hits on target with one than with a pump shotgun, or with a .45 1911, or with a .410 revolver, it's pretty irresponsible of me to deliberately hold myself back by insisting on keeping something else ready for defending my loved ones.

Sam1911 said:

Well, gel testing is one of the ways we get some idea of how bullets damage something sort of like real tissue. If we're going to compare apples to apples, it gets somewhat closer that almost anything else we have to leveling the field.

But your point about the gun or platform is extremely important.

99% of an adequate defensive shot is in your capacity to hit the target under great stress, and in a vital spot. So, figuring out whether that style of firearm helps you to do that fastest and bestest is really important. I may not like 9mm Glocks much, but if I can put faster hits on target with one than with a pump shotgun, or with a .45 1911, or with a .410 revolver, it's pretty irresponsible of me to deliberately hold myself back by insisting on keeping something else ready for defending my loved ones.

Click to expand...

See, we can agree on something.

Great! That's the only way to get anything useful out of discussions and debates is to figure out what we do agree on and then work from there to sort out what we don't agree on and why.

Sam1911 said it all so well. I must say that one thing we see here is that when folks pick a gun or carry method that reasoned expert opinion finds not optimal, it takes some cognitive effort to realize that you are wrong. Most, however, fall for the cognitive bias of selective information processing and ignore the reasoned expert opinions as they can't face what they perceive as a drop in their self-image as a perceived expert gunfighter.

It is the same thing that we see in the threads that suggested open carry of large Single Action revolver is better that concealed carry of a modern semi in most environments.

I have to say, we picked up a judge a few years ago, and I thought it performed admirably at 20 feet with PDX1 shells in it. Was rather surprised at the damage it did to a denim covered 3/4 plywood sheet. Still have it as the bedstand gun. Don't recall it having an unmanageable recoil- and the wife never complained while we ran a box of shells through it.

Trigger was kinda poor at first, but it's been smoothed out since.

IMO, it functions well in the capacity we're using it in. but i wouldn't likely use it outside those parameters.

anothernewb said:

I have to say, we picked up a judge a few years ago, and I thought it performed admirably at 20 feet with PDX1 shells in it. Was rather surprised at the damage it did to a denim covered 3/4 plywood sheet. Still have it as the bedstand gun. Don't recall it having an unmanageable recoil- and the wife never complained while we ran a box of shells through it.

Trigger was kinda poor at first, but it's been smoothed out since.

IMO, it functions well in the capacity we're using it in. but i wouldn't likely use it outside those parameters.

Click to expand...

Since my only experience with .410 is with long guns (which I absolutely love for rabbit and squirrel, even if squirrels have occasionally shrugged off solid hits) I'm trying to get a grasp on the recoil of these things.

How fast can you get 5 good hits (lets say 8" plate)? I know with my 9mms I can get consistent 5 rounds COM out to 15 yards from the holster in under 4 seconds, under 6 with my .45s. Timed and movement try to replicate stress.

I'm no pistolero but if I could only get, say, 2 or 3 hits in that time, I'm thinking 5 147 grain hollowpoints trump a scattering of non expanding 70 grainers.

Now, thats just my theory. I don't know the recoil of the Judge to fairly compare.

For SD slow fire recoil means nothing to me, likely everyone is rushing that first shot anyway and follow up hits are equally or more important, IMO

anothernewb said:

I have to say, we picked up a judge a few years ago, and I thought it performed admirably at 20 feet with PDX1 shells in it. Was rather surprised at the damage it did to a denim covered 3/4 plywood sheet. Still have it as the bedstand gun. Don't recall it having an unmanageable recoil- and the wife never complained while we ran a box of shells through it.

Trigger was kinda poor at first, but it's been smoothed out since.

IMO, it functions well in the capacity we're using it in. but i wouldn't likely use it outside those parameters.

Click to expand...

Wait.......Whaaaaaaaat. Define 3/4 plywood. Was it plain or treated? Are you sure it was 20'? Did you capture this event on super8 or an Iphone? All in fun guys, but I hope some of you might take off the blinders at least for a little while. If it's what you use go for it, if it's not what you use go for it.

FWIW heres a link to Hickok45s video. Seems pretty OK at certain points/ammo. Be a fun gun regardless, IMO

......bs?
The thread title is "why no shotshell revolvers for HD?"

I think the gun magazines and Internet forums are so obsessed with double stack 9mms, and 1911s that anything else gets laughed out of contention.

If you think that a combination of .410 shotshells and .45colt isn't effective for HD, you're kidding yourself.

I don't own a judge, but I have shot them on more than one occasion. A fun gun to shoot, no doubt about it. For someone that already has .410s or .45colts, or both.....?
If ruger made one, I would own one.

Shot out of a rifled barrel flies in a spiral, sends the shot all over and leaves big holes in the pattern.
"...a pump shotgun can be short-stroked..." Only if you don't practice or are unfamiliar with that particular pump gun. Shotguns require aiming too.

If ruger made one, I would own one

Click to expand...

A .410 Blackhawk would arouse my interest.

I must be the only one that has taken the time to research the Federal handgun .410 000 buckshot load. How it's designed and what makes it hold a tight pattern out to self defense range of 21'.

Kleanbore said:

Completely meaningless.

What have you found about penetration?

Click to expand...

The implications here are that a Judge isn't a viable choice for use as a home defense weapon.
If a Judge kills a perp would it not be just as usefull as the other two?
Never performed any gel test I leave that up to the Experts but I've killed many boards and overripe mellon perps and steel targets. Also good to see another mod piling on the heep. At least we know you guys are minding the store.
Also are you putting all your eggs in the penetration basket. I put the majority of mine in the accuracy basket.