About Home Defense gun selection - why no shotshell revolvers

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Box-o-Truth published this:


  • The 3 inch .410 shells did slightly better than the 2 ½ inch shells did. But most of them still failed to make the 12 inch minimum penetration standard. However, a few loads made the minimum penetration standard.
  • Some of the pellets deviated sharply from their path and left the water jugs.
  • The longer barrel of the 28 inch shotgun made quite a difference in penetration. It seems that the short 3 inch barrel of the Judge is its main limitation.
  • Even at 7 yards, the pattern of the Judge is too wide, and will cause some of the load to miss a bad guy. Not only are you responsible for every pellet you send down range, but if they miss him, they do not Stop him.

https://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-53-the-taurus-judge-revisited/

Far less than optimal, I'd say. I cannot fathom why anyone would choose one over a smaller firearm with less recoil, greater capacity, and better terminal ballistics.
 
Oh the Box Of Truth using birdshot counterpunch. It was garbage reporting then and it still is now. Why do so many people to this day still use the Judge shooting birdshot as the standard for judging it's capabilities as a defense weapon. Come on now, the ammo for this weapon has made quite a leap since it was introduced.
Guess what-- a pellet gun can kill as one recently did. Do I need to link to the article?
I don't remember saying killing was the object simply a comparison statement. And please define a lawfull defenders objective for me. My understanding is that's to do what's needed to stop the active threat. Correct me if I'm wrong but I understand that law enforcement is taught to shoot center mass. I would think that center mass hits usually wouldn't produce a favorible outcome for a perp.
 
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The implications here are that a Judge isn't a viable choice for use as a home defense weapon.
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As I've stated over and over again, what we know is that the Judge is capable of killing or seriously wounding someone, sometimes, with some ammo, under some conditions. But what we don't seem to have evidence for is why it would be a better choice than a whole lot of other common defensive arms which appear to have long track records of success, ease of getting hits, speed of engagement, more flexibility and capability over greater distances, can fire more rounds before reloading, and so forth.

WHY is it the right choice, when the purely objective facts seem to indicate that many other firearms would be considerably better?

If a Judge kills a perp would it not be just as usefull as the other two?
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Again, IF. You're jumping to assume that you'll prevail, and trying to use your own assumption to persuade others that your assumption is correct. It's totally circular. Trying to lift yourself into the air by yanking on your own shoelaces.

The question isn't could it work. The question is why would this be a GOOD choice when you should be stacking the odds as heavily as possible in your favor and other weapons don't come with the large question marks?

Never performed any gel test I leave that up to the Experts but I've killed many boards and overripe mellon perps and steel targets.
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Ok, so you've shot steel targets and melons and boards. That gives us something to measure your approval with, at least.

Also good to see another mod piling on the heep. At least we know you guys are minding the store.
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That's silly. Neither Kleanbore nor I are acting with Moderator authority in this, just asking questions and putting concepts out there for consideration. Do you think it would be better if we took a group of some of the more experienced members of the forum and told them they aren't allowed to participate in discussions because asking questions or making an argument would be "piling on?"

If your point is solid you should be able to support it solidly no matter what your member title is.

Also are you putting all your eggs in the penetration basket. I put the majority of mine in the accuracy basket.
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Interesting. Somebody else brought up penetration numbers, but I think this is the first time you've mentioned accuracy.

So, since you're touting your accuracy, what accuracy are you able to achieve with the Judge, and at what speed? Are you faster making accurate shots with it than you are with a more common style of handgun, shotgun, or rifle?
 
According to the Wikipedia article on The Judge (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taurus_Judge), quoting the Shooting Times, it is Taurus' best selling firearm. The gun press may not be impressed with it. The majority of the posters here may not be impressed with it, but it clearly strikes a note with a certain segment of the gun-owning population that sees a place for it in their household.
 
I can routinely keep shots in a seven inch group at 21'. As to how fast I don't time my shots. I don't practice as much for speed as I do for accuracy nor do use the spray and pray method. Mod authority huh. Anyone that"s able to read can form their own opinion in arena. I thought formums were for learning new things and sharing different opinions on various subjects. I'm not telling anyone to use a Judge for self defense. I'm not nor have I stated in this thread that the Judge is any better in it's role than any other firearm in existance. I've been acused of that so please point it out to me. But sure seems like a couple mods are doing their best to convince me otherwise. I'm new on here and had high hopes THR was a great place to join and learn. Looks like THR takes the same attitude as other forums about the Judge. Can't work, junky Taurus, gimmick. It may be your junk but it's gold to me. Don't waste bandwith trying to convince me otherwise.
And I repeat (_-its not better than any other firearm for selfdefense).
 
I think you need to understand how the gun magazine business model works. Most of them are highly attuned to what their advertisers want printed about their guns. If a shot shell revolver manufacturer was a major advertiser and wanted this kind of an endorsement you would start seeing it.
 
knot4reel said:
Wait.......Whaaaaaaaat. Define 3/4 plywood. Was it plain or treated? Are you sure it was 20'? Did you capture this event on super8 or an Iphone? All in fun guys, but I hope some of you might take off the blinders at least for a little while. :what: If it's what you use go for it, if it's not what you use go for it.
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3/4" marine plywood. standard target boards we use. punched it with ease. yes, 20' but no didn't take video or pics of it.
However, I could take it back to the range again and snap a few. Gotta find some more leftover denim though.
 
hdwhit said:
According to the Wikipedia article on The Judge (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taurus_Judge), quoting the Shooting Times, it is Taurus' best selling firearm. The gun press may not be impressed with it. The majority of the posters here may not be impressed with it, but it clearly strikes a note with a certain segment of the gun-owning population that sees a place for it in their household.
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And here's another Wikipedia citation that will help explain that phenomenon:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/There's_a_sucker_born_every_minute
 
knot4reel said:
Also good to see another mod piling on the heep. At least we know you guys are minding the store.
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Presumably, mods become mods because they exhibit -- among other things -- a higher-than-average knowledge of firearms combined with the skills to convey this knowledge on a forum setting like THR. And Sam1911 and Kleenbore are doing a good job explaining the downsides to using a .410 revolver as a SD weapon.

Nobody here is saying that a .410 revolver loaded with buckshot won't work as an SD firearm. What we're saying is that it's not as good a choice compared to other handguns: It has several disadvantages to other similar handguns without a single advantage. For example, a full-sized .357 revolver is smaller and yet is still more effective at stopping a threat (even if the .357 Mag is loaded with .38 Special defensive ammo).

I can only think of two reasons to ever buy a .410 revolver: If you want a fun range toy or you need a handgun that can take out small pests like snakes or rats.
 
knot4reel said:
I don't practice as much for speed as I do for accuracy nor do use the spray and pray method.
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It is important to understand that, because violent criminal attackers are not stationary two dimensional targets placed at a set distance, it is extremely important to be a able tp balance speed and precision in defensive shooting. The proper balance will be situationally determined, and it will depend upon the distance, upon the number of attackers, and upon the speed at which the attackers are moving.

Step one, before practice. should be to fail oneself of some good, realistic defensive handgun shooting training.

The toolset is less important than the skillset, but some of us have learned in training that our first choice in weaponry did not prove ptimal when put to the test.
 
Theohazard said:
Presumably, mods become mods because they exhibit -- among other things -- a higher-than-average knowledge of firearms combined with the skills to convey this knowledge on a forum setting like THR. And Sam1911 and Kleenbore are doing a good job explaining the downsides to using a .410 revolver as a SD weapon.

Nobody here is saying that a .410 revolver loaded with buckshot won't work as an SD firearm. What we're saying is that it's not as good a choice compared to other handguns: It has several disadvantages to other similar handguns without a single advantage. For example, a full-sized .357 revolver is smaller and yet is still more effective at stopping a threat (even if the .357 Mag is loaded with .38 Special defensive ammo).

I can only think of two reasons to ever buy a .410 revolver: If you want a fun range toy or you need a handgun that can take out small pests like snakes or rats.
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We can all presume can't we. Example of your 357 revolver. In the dark it will surely blind you. be hard to get accurate follow up shots, and with 357 ammo probably over penetrate. Get my drift. Name any weapon on your nightstand for home defense and I can give you any number of reasons why it might not be the best choice to use said weapon. Love .357, have several and enjoy shooting them but its not gonna be on my nightstand because I'm more confident with the Judge being there by my choice. I appreciate everyones concern about my choice but it is what it is. Carry on.
 
knot4reel said:
We can all presume can't we. Example of your 357 revolver. In the dark it will surely blind you. be hard to get accurate follow up shots, and with 357 ammo probably over penetrate. Get my drift.
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Apparently you didn't read my entire post. Notice I said the following:

"For example, a full-sized .357 revolver is smaller and yet is still more effective at stopping a threat (even if the .357 Mag is loaded with .38 Special defensive ammo)."

knot4reel said:
Name any weapon on your nightstand for home defense and I can give you any number of reasons why it might not be the best choice to use said weapon.
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Of course. Every weapon has its downsides. The key is to balance the downsides with the upsides. And in the case of .410 revolvers, there aren't any upsides to them compared to many other revolvers, and there are several downsides.

And I wouldn't recommend using less risk of over-penetration as a reason to use a .410 revolver, considering .410 buckshot loads tend to penetrate below the recommended minimum in ballistics gel out of those short barrels. It's one thing to limit over-penetration, and it's another thing to limit penetration to the extent that your rounds are unreliable at stopping a threat.
 
knot4reel said:
We can all presume can't we. Example of your 357 revolver. In the dark it will surely blind you. be hard to get accurate follow up shots, and with 357 ammo probably over penetrate. Get my drift. Name any weapon on your nightstand for home defense and I can give you any number of reasons why it might not be the best choice to use said weapon. Love .357, have several and enjoy shooting them but its not gonna be on my nightstand because I'm more confident with the Judge being there by my choice. I appreciate everyones concern about my choice but it is what it is. Carry on.
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FWIW, knot4reel, it wouldn't be my first choice, but if it's yours, that's your choice. I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise.Keep training and practicing with it, that's good advice for all of us, whatever our SD choices.
 
I use pistol shot shells for snakes, work ok for that job and I don't have to slow down on the tractor to kill a snake but if someone was wearing safety glasses and a jacket, my rounds wouldn't be vey lethal at the same distance and we are taking about feet vs yards.
 
Theohazard said:
"For example, a full-sized .357 revolver is smaller and yet is still more effective at stopping a threat (even if the .357 Mag is loaded with .38 Special defensive ammo)."
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.38 spl defense ammo. Guess that would be JHP that by many experts is labeled ineffective because of the inconsistant expansion and that if it does expand not enough penetration. FBI load maybe? Dropped because something better came along. See it"s like a dog chasing his tail huh
Forgot, as for penetration see post #80.
 
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knot4reel said:
38 spl defense ammo. Guess that would be JHP that by many experts is labeled ineffective because of the inconsistant expansion and that if it does expand not enough penetration. FBI load maybe? Dropped because something better came along. See it"s like a dog chasing his tail huh
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Your grasp of history is inaccurate.

Quite a number of years ago, "many" experts did question the effectiveness of standard .38 Special ammunition for self defense.

The "FBI load" came about around 47 years ago. It is now produced by several manufacturers, and it tests very well. They meet current FBI test standards for expansion and penetration.

They were at one time carried by police officers in many major cities.

Not so today--most law enforcement officers carry double-column semi autos with loads that meet FBI standards.

The reason is simple--magazine capacity.
 
The majority of the posters here may not be impressed with it, but it clearly strikes a note with a certain segment of the gun-owning population that sees a place for it in their household.
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Sure it does! It's weird. It's interesting. It's wacky fun. And Taurus has done a massive and adroit job of marketing it. Looking at their traditional place in the world of firearms manufacturers, it would be astonishing if it WASN'T their best selling item. It's practically the only thing they sell that sets them apart from the herd of makers, in which they have always been a second- or third-tier player.

Imagine if Kia suddenly came out with a car that could lift off the ground and float for a few seconds. It would be their hottest seller and create a lot of buzz in the automotive world, but it wouldn't actually be a better commuter car and folks would mostly buy them to goof off with. But many true fans would come up with exuberant theories why the new Kia's strange quirk makes is a great choice for getting to work.
 
I've asked why you feel the Judge is a good gun to choose for defending your life, out of so many options. Your answers are a little confusing.

And I repeat (_-its not better than any other firearm for selfdefense).
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Love .357, have several and enjoy shooting them but its not gonna be on my nightstand because I'm more confident with the Judge being there by my choice.
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Now, I'm not going to try to convince you of anything, but I'm (once more) going to ask plain questions.

You say you agree that is isn't better than other firearms for self-defense, but then say you are more confident with it in that role than others, like the .357 revolvers you own.

And, as self-defense is a "for-all-the-marbles" last chance desperate attempt to keep yourself or your loved ones from a violent death, I'm asking how you come to that decision?

You say you shoot for accuracy, not speed. Setting aside Kleanbore's incredibly important point about speed being crucial against moving, aggressive, living targets, are you saying that you are MORE accurate with the Judge than with your .357 revolvers or other firearms?

You say you don't put your hopes in penetration (though some of the various penetration tests appear to record up to 19" in gelatin, which is plenty, though the projectiles are small). What DO you put your hopes in, then? What mechanism of wounding do you feel the Judge applies better than other firearms with more conventional characteristics?

You obviously don't have a concern for the low capacity. 5 shots will be enough, or it won't be, but you'll take your chances. Which is well enough, but of course having more rounds would be A benefit, so what things do you like about the Judge that are more important that having more shots between reloads? (And faster reloads.)

So, what IS the compelling point which has lead you to choose the Judge? Or the compelling balance of factors?

You own other firearms. You don't choose them for self defense use, and you do choose the Judge. What are the negative factors that get you to store away your other guns because the Judge is better than they are?
 
WHY is it the right choice, when the purely objective facts seem to indicate that many other firearms would be considerably better?
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Those convinced against their will are of the same opinion still.

Dale Carnegie
 
I do not know anyone who has purchased a .410 revolver.

I know some people who have been impressed by the advertising, by the videos and the images of targets, and by what they imagine they might do with the gun. All are neophytes. Some have fired guns at the range or at the farm, but none has ever participated in any really good defensive pistol training.

And that's the acid test. If someone can take one of these gadgets to a course such as the I.C.E. PDN Combat Focus Shooting regimen, run through a day or two of the rills, and convince himself and the instructor that that it is an adequate choice, it would be a viable selection.

The developer of that course makes no secret of the fact that he does not think highly of .410 revolvers. He did participate in a video with a Taurus rep recently in which he said that, with the new Winchester PDX1 ammunition, he would feel adequately equipped to face a carjacker at a distance of 10 to 15 feet. He did not say that he would choose one, or recommend one to anyone else.

But he can handle any firearm very competently.

Most or the better-known trainers and writers hold the .410 revolver concept in much lower regard.

I have taken the Combat Focus Shooting course, and I would much prefer a good semiautomatic pistol.
 
Kleanbore said:
Your grasp of history is inaccurate.

Quite a number of years ago, "many" experts did question the effectiveness of standard .38 Special ammunition for self defense.

The "FBI load" came about around 47 years ago. It is now produced by several manufacturers, and it tests very well. They meet current FBI test standards for expansion and penetration.

They were at one time carried by police officers in many major cities.

Not so today--most law enforcement officers carry double-column semi autos with loads that meet FBI standards.

The reason is simple--magazine capacity.
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IE something thought to be better came along. Why did the FBI jump on the .40 bandwagon? Why are they now jumping on the 9mm bandwagon? As I think I have clearly stated allready but certain posters want to keep asking why why why why, I don't need to justify my choice to anyone except myself. But feel free to keep trying. Did you watch the video in the link I posted #80 if so what did you think about it. If not why didn't you watch it? I reread what you suggested. What's your opinion about his opinion and more importantly WHY.
 
Theohazard said:
Presumably, mods become mods because they exhibit -- among other things -- a higher-than-average knowledge of firearms combined with the skills to convey this knowledge on a forum setting like THR. And Sam1911 and Kleenbore are doing a good job explaining the downsides to using a .410 revolver as a SD weapon.

Nobody here is saying that a .410 revolver loaded with buckshot won't work as an SD firearm. What we're saying is that it's not as good a choice compared to other handguns: It has several disadvantages to other similar handguns without a single advantage. For example, a full-sized .357 revolver is smaller and yet is still more effective at stopping a threat (even if the .357 Mag is loaded with .38 Special defensive ammo).

I can only think of two reasons to ever buy a .410 revolver: If you want a fun range toy or you need a handgun that can take out small pests like snakes or rats.
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Mods become mods because they are level headed and have the time and ability to keep things on track.
 
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