G3 rifles

mshootnit · Dec 31, 2018

If you saw my post in a different thread then you might know that I have a new PTR-91 coming in... this model:
PTR-91 KFM4R

https://ptr-us.com/product/kfm4r-ptr-104/

I mildly enjoyed this video on G3 Rifles, but really wanted to share because of the interesting comments about the rifle(below the video in the youtube site) from actual G3 military users. To see the coments you may want to view this in the youtube app
G3 Has Been a Workhorse
Video:

ifit · Dec 31, 2018

Congrats on the rifle, seen that video and a few more on the history of the G3. I have a Ptr32, only cause i can afford to shoot more of the 7.62x39

AlexanderA · Dec 31, 2018

I have a PTR-91 as well as an FAL. Of the two, the FAL is head and shoulders better (also more expensive).

BigBlue 94 · Dec 31, 2018

I have a century arms cetme that goes bang every time I pull the trigger. I know it's not in the same class as the ptr or actual g3, but I enjoy it.

mshootnit · Dec 31, 2018

AlexanderA said:
I have a PTR-91 as well as an FAL. Of the two, the FAL is head and shoulders better (also more expensive).

DSA rifles are actually cheaper than PTRs. If you want to pick up another FAL for when your first one breaks.

LRDGCO · Dec 31, 2018

The PTR is great and you will enjoy it. I don't hate the trigger on mine but I'm also okay with it being a 1.5-2MOA rifle. There's a chap in Colorado Springs, Bill something(?), that does "match" trigger packs if you so desire.

Take "precision welded rail" with a grain of salt. The one on my GIR was sufficiently low at the rear end that I had to shim the rings to get a Sightmark Photon to adjust low enough to hit POA at 100 yards. It's a really nice piece of Cold War history and a great "battle rifle". It does not mind being dirty. Enjoy!

GBExpat · Dec 31, 2018

Congrats on the new PTR-91, mshootnit!

I have 2 CETME C (G3 progenitor) Variants and 3 FALs (I built 2 with mostly STG-58 parts and I also still have my original Century FrankFAL).

I have a G3 kit that I have not yet built.

I like the FALs better (probably since they are more "accessible" and no welding involved in the build), but I enjoy shooting the CETMEs a little bit more.

Enjoy!

MachIVshooter · Dec 31, 2018

mshootnit said:
DSA rifles are actually cheaper than PTRs. If you want to pick up another FAL for when your first one breaks.

PTRs run $900-$1,200 actual retail; There is but one DSA SA58 model that comes in under $1,400.

Be careful taking shots like that; you're far more likely to break rollers or develop headspace issues than the FAL is to crack locking blocks. There's a reason the FAL was adopted by far more nations, dubbed the right arm of the free world. It would have been a US infantry rifle if not for the corruption of Springfield Armory being in bed with the military at the time; the T48 outperformed the T44 in every fair test.

The CETME/G3 design has it's place in gun development & firearm history, but it's at the bottom of the list for me. And yes, I own one. So-so accuracy, violent action, poor suppressor host, optics mounting solutions suck, accessory options not great in general. With .308 ARs well under $1,000 these days, I don't know why anyone would bother with them quite frankly.

LRDGCO · Dec 31, 2018

MachIVshooter said:
The CETME/G3 design has it's place in gun development & firearm history, but it's at the bottom of the list for me. And yes, I own one. So-so accuracy, violent action, poor suppressor host, optics mounting solutions suck, accessory options not great in general. With .308 ARs well under $1,000 these days, I don't know why anyone would bother with them quite frankly.

Presumably there are those who understand physics and therefore take issue with the "violent action" theory and perhaps do not wish to encumber themselves with a fiddly, temperamental gas system. Others perhaps shun ubiquity. The joys of choice!

briansmithwins · Dec 31, 2018

The G3 and the whole series of roller delayed blowback operated guns are an interesting implementation. In theory you eliminate the entire gas system making roller delayed cheaper and lighter. In practice, the materials required end up weighing and costing as much as a gas operated firearm.

Let's not forget the real enemy here: the M14.

BSW

AlexanderA · Dec 31, 2018

MachIVshooter said:
PTRs run $900-$1,200 actual retail; There is but one DSA SA58 model that comes in under $1,400.

The CETME/G3 design has it's place in gun development & firearm history, but it's at the bottom of the list for me. And yes, I own one. So-so accuracy, violent action, poor suppressor host, optics mounting solutions suck, accessory options not great in general. With .308 ARs well under $1,000 these days, I don't know why anyone would bother with them quite frankly.

I agree with everything you say above. My DSA FAL cost considerably more than my PTR-91, and that's even after I added upgrades to my PTR, such as replacing the plastic "Navy" trigger housing with a metal housing, and the slimline forend with a bipod forend.

MachIVshooter · Dec 31, 2018

LRDGCO said:
Presumably there are those who understand physics and therefore take issue with the "violent action" theory and perhaps do not wish to encumber themselves with a fiddly, temperamental gas system. Others perhaps shun ubiquity. The joys of choice!

Yeah, what would I know about gun design. I've only scratch built some of the lightest repeating firearms extant, and it's not like I manufacture precision parts with aerospace materials every single day or anything....

As for a "fiddly" gas system, have you ever actually used an FAL? Gas system adjustment, on the rare occasion it's really needed, is literally rotating a knob. The only time it's more involved than that is when incorporating a suppressor, reducing the gas plug port size, which is easily done by welding & drilling or tapping and installing a set screw that is in turn drilled smaller. They'll run without that mod, but violently.

Conversely, the CETME/G3 with it's fluted chamber can develop issues from carbon fouling even when the rollers are fine. When it's working right, cases go at least 20 feet and are deformed from the flutes, almost not reloadable. And suppressing a G3? If you actually get it to run reliably after swapping around locking pieces & rollers, your ears will still be pelted with 150 dB+ port noise, and you practically need a gas mask.

I'm well aware that you're sweet on the PTR. I also couldn't care less if some people want to run with a design the Germans pirated from the Spaniards, but it has it's flaws & shortcomings, which we need to be honest about. That doesn't include absurdly baseless ad hom.

JONWILL · Dec 31, 2018

I had a three of them. HK91, Greek SAR3 (Springfield) and a PARS import Portuguese one

I personally think they really out shine the FAL and M-14

Shorter, easy to add a collapsible stock( literally a 1 minute change over). Scope mount is rock solid.
Bipod folds right into the forend.

Cheap and easy to make. Mainly stamped parts with some forged. Basically think large M3 Grease Gun

LRDGCO · Dec 31, 2018

MachIVshooter,

Axe grinding is not a particularly relevant expertise to the subject, but thanks for sharing. My remarks were directed to why anyone might prefer the G3 to an AR. As to the G3 / FAL fanduel, to each his own. Throwing out carbon fouling and fluted chambers while discounting the impact of carbon fouling on fiddly gas systems does not engender confidence.

mshootnit · Dec 31, 2018

MachIVshooter said:
PTRs run $900-$1,200 actual retail; There is but one DSA SA58 model that comes in under $1,400.

Be careful taking shots like that; you're far more likely to break rollers or develop headspace issues than the FAL is to crack locking blocks. There's a reason the FAL was adopted by far more nations, dubbed the right arm of the free world. It would have been a US infantry rifle if not for the corruption of Springfield Armory being in bed with the military at the time; the T48 outperformed the T44 in every fair test.

The CETME/G3 design has it's place in gun development & firearm history, but it's at the bottom of the list for me. And yes, I own one. So-so accuracy, violent action, poor suppressor host, optics mounting solutions suck, accessory options not great in general. With .308 ARs well under $1,000 these days, I don't know why anyone would bother with them quite frankly.

MachIVshooter said:
Yeah, what would I know about gun design. I've only scratch built some of the lightest repeating firearms extant, and it's not like I manufacture precision parts with aerospace materials every single day or anything....

As for a "fiddly" gas system, have you ever actually used an FAL? Gas system adjustment, on the rare occasion it's really needed, is literally rotating a knob. The only time it's more involved than that is when incorporating a suppressor, reducing the gas plug port size, which is easily done by welding & drilling or tapping and installing a set screw that is in turn drilled smaller. They'll run without that mod, but violently.

Conversely, the CETME/G3 with it's fluted chamber can develop issues from carbon fouling even when the rollers are fine. When it's working right, cases go at least 20 feet and are deformed from the flutes, almost not reloadable. And suppressing a G3? If you actually get it to run reliably after swapping around locking pieces & rollers, your ears will still be pelted with 150 dB+ port noise, and you practically need a gas mask.

I'm well aware that you're sweet on the PTR. I also couldn't care less if some people want to run with a design the Germans pirated from the Spaniards, but it has it's flaws & shortcomings, which we need to be honest about. That doesn't include absurdly baseless ad hom.

Listen this is a G3 thread. It is not a G3 vs. FAL thread. The G3 was and still is a very reliable, serviceable military rifle. The users of which often only complain of weight. But they exude great confidence in the old
Schulterbrecher!

mshootnit · Dec 31, 2018

MachIVshooter said:
Yeah, what would I know about gun design. I've only scratch built some of the lightest repeating firearms extant, and it's not like I manufacture precision parts with aerospace materials every single day or anything....

As for a "fiddly" gas system, have you ever actually used an FAL? Gas system adjustment, on the rare occasion it's really needed, is literally rotating a knob. The only time it's more involved than that is when incorporating a suppressor, reducing the gas plug port size, which is easily done by welding & drilling or tapping and installing a set screw that is in turn drilled smaller. They'll run without that mod, but violently.

Conversely, the CETME/G3 with it's fluted chamber can develop issues from carbon fouling even when the rollers are fine. When it's working right, cases go at least 20 feet and are deformed from the flutes, almost not reloadable. And suppressing a G3? If you actually get it to run reliably after swapping around locking pieces & rollers, your ears will still be pelted with 150 dB+ port noise, and you practically need a gas mask.

I'm well aware that you're sweet on the PTR. I also couldn't care less if some people want to run with a design the Germans pirated from the Spaniards, but it has it's flaws & shortcomings, which we need to be honest about. That doesn't include absurdly baseless ad hom.

So what FAL do you recommend? No one denies that it is a good rifle....

mshootnit · Dec 31, 2018

GBExpat said:
Congrats on the new PTR-91, mshootnit!

I have 2 CETME C (G3 progenitor) Variants and 3 FALs (I built 2 with mostly STG-58 parts and I also still have my original Century FrankFAL).

I have a G3 kit that I have not yet built.

I like the FALs better (probably since they are more "accessible" and no welding involved in the build), but I enjoy shooting the CETMEs a little bit more.

Enjoy!

Thanks for your interesting insights!

mshootnit · Dec 31, 2018

MachIVshooter said:
PTRs run $900-$1,200 actual retail; There is but one DSA SA58 model that comes in under $1,400.

Be careful taking shots like that; you're far more likely to break rollers or develop headspace issues than the FAL is to crack locking blocks. There's a reason the FAL was adopted by far more nations, dubbed the right arm of the free world. It would have been a US infantry rifle if not for the corruption of Springfield Armory being in bed with the military at the time; the T48 outperformed the T44 in every fair test.

The CETME/G3 design has it's place in gun development & firearm history, but it's at the bottom of the list for me. And yes, I own one. So-so accuracy, violent action, poor suppressor host, optics mounting solutions suck, accessory options not great in general. With .308 ARs well under $1,000 these days, I don't know why anyone would bother with them quite frankly.

Well for one thing, G3 semi autos cycle faster than the AR10's meaning you can rock out harder. If a G3 bolt could talk, it would ask why everyone waits so long to get moving! Also, if the rollers break you can still use the BCG as a deadly weapon by itself, either by throwing or simply as a hammer ( self defense of course)

MachIVshooter · Dec 31, 2018

LRDGCO said:
MachIVshooter,

Axe grinding is not a particularly relevant expertise to the subject, but thanks for sharing..

Since when is being frank about the attributes or detractors of a given platform axe grinding?

LRDGCO said:
My remarks were directed to why anyone might prefer the G3 to an AR.

You quoted me, and cast a thinly veiled insult at me. If you're speaking generally, then speak generally. And maybe add something substantive, rather than being dismissive and condemning in the vaguest way.

LRDGCO said:
Throwing out carbon fouling and fluted chambers while discounting the impact of carbon fouling on fiddly gas systems does not engender confidence.

Please tell us about all your experience with the lack of reliability due to carbon fouling in a gas system (a self-limiting problem in reality) with the FAL, AR platform, SCAR or any of the many others. And when you're done there, do a little light research on the problems with carbon fouling causing stoppages in G3 pattern guns with suppressors, as you seem convinced that a somewhat fickle delayed blowback locking system is superior.

mshootnit said:
So what FAL do you recommend? No one denies that it is a good rifle....

DS Arms or a quality build on an Imbel or FN receiver.

mshootnit said:
Well for one thing, G3 semi autos cycle faster than the AR10's meaning you can rock out harder. If a G3 bolt could talk, it would ask why everyone waits so long to get moving!

How fast is your trigger finger?

The AR10 is capable of cycling reliably up to 900-1,000 RPM. Faster than that, the bolt will outrun the magazine. I'm not speculating, have run the snot out of a postie I built.

Firing @ :55

mshootnit · Dec 31, 2018

"How fast is your trigger finger?"
Fast enough to tell the difference between a G3 and an AR10.

mshootnit · Dec 31, 2018

MachIVshooter said:
Since when is being frank about the attributes or detractors of a given platform axe grinding?

You quoted me, and cast a thinly veiled insult at me. If you're speaking generally, then speak generally. And maybe add something substantive, rather than being dismissive and condemning in the vaguest way.

Please tell us about all your experience with the lack of reliability due to carbon fouling in a gas system (a self-limiting problem in reality) with the FAL, AR platform, SCAR or any of the many others. And when you're done there, do a little light research on the problems with carbon fouling causing stoppages in G3 pattern guns with suppressors, as you seem convinced that a somewhat fickle delayed blowback locking system is superior.

DS Arms or a quality build on an Imbel or FN receiver.

How fast is your trigger finger?

The AR10 is capable of cycling reliably up to 900-1,000 RPM. Faster than that, the bolt will outrun the magazine. I'm not speculating, have run the snot out of a postie I built.

View attachment 818745

Firing @ :55

I'm sorry, you do realize this is a G3 thread, correct?

MachIVshooter · Dec 31, 2018

mshootnit said:
I'm sorry, you do realize this is a G3 thread, correct?

If you don't want to discuss the other platforms, then that should have been your position from the get go, refraining from disparaging remarks about other platforms which most definitely invite discourse on them. Near as I can tell, you don't actually own any of the 3 rifles being discussed in this thread, so maybe you should talk less and listen more, might save you the embarrassment of things like asserting that you can squeeze of rounds faster than Bob Munden or Jerry Miculek.

mshootnit · Dec 31, 2018

I do own several of the rifles discussed. I have owned I guess about 4 PTR's 1 Vepr 308, Four AR10's, 2 M1a standards, 1 M1A National match, 4 or 5 Saiga 308's. But no FAL.
The G3 gas been adopted by many countries, and extensively proven.
Do you have any cool G3 info to add to this G3 thread?

Odd Job · Dec 31, 2018

Turn the heat down in this thread, folks, or I'll lock it.

ifit · Dec 31, 2018

Let's see some awesome pics G3s

G3 rifles

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