G3 rifles

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If you have a welded-on optics rail on your PTR / G3, it precludes installation of an ejection port buffer. The port buffer is one of the most useful / necessary accessories for this design rifle.
 
LRDGCO said:
MachIVshooter,

Axe grinding is not a particularly relevant expertise to the subject, but thanks for sharing. My remarks were directed to why anyone might prefer the G3 to an AR. As to the G3 / FAL fanduel, to each his own. Throwing out carbon fouling and fluted chambers while discounting the impact of carbon fouling on fiddly gas systems does not engender confidence.
Click to expand...

Gas fouling is such a big problem, which is why the vast majority of military and hard use self-loading firearms are gas operated.

[sarcasm]Soldiers learned long ago that they like dealing with reliability issues, so they discarded the reliability of HK's proprietary delayed roller-lock system for more finicky and less reliable gas operation mechanisms [/sarcasm]

I appreciate the history and the engineering of the G3, just like I enjoy getting nostalgic with the M1. But if we are being completely honest, there is plenty of reasons delayed blowback never really caught on. And real reasons why gas operation did.
 
Here is a good general question: Do you scope a G3? Yea or Nay? Why or why not?
 
One thing I liked about the HK 51/91 G3 Cetme in the 1980s was that it seemed most folks that owned them at the ranges I shot at abandoned their brass thinking it not reloadable. Tumble, FLR, trim and put it to work in an M1A or bolt gun happy as a clam.

One German friend insisted the G3 was very controllable in full auto fire... with the barrel shoved through a gun port ball in a Marder IFV!

I think I saw a grand total of one fired full auto on a German range...by a snotty French NCO that refused instruction and then insisted the weapon was broken and went full auto on its own...even when it was pointed out the weapon he tossed down on the range was set on Full Auto.

In my unit most every one had fired one, gotten mechanical training and had a chance to qualify with one by the time they had been in the outfit a year. Only a handful of us got any FAL experience. There may have been six or eight of us in the whole Company the whole three years I was enlisted in Germany that got to shoot the now standard FN MAG back in the early to mid 1970's, though about half got some experience with the MG1 to MG3 (7.62NATO MG42) Despite all the bad press I can not recall a single M60 gunner that liked the ferrin 'chine guns better in my unit.

Most of the guys that expressed an opinion on the G3 liked them...until they got to thinking about weight of gun and ammo for a "light fighter". The guys with little shooting experience before the service often thought the recoil of the G3 punishing and some quickly developed a flinch that had to be gotten rid of when they went back to their Poodle Shooters

Once again the arguments about troops "choosing" their weapons makes me chuckle. Government bean counters choose what weapons a soldier gets, not his preferences.

-kBob
 
Scoping a G3 is best accomplished in either of two ways:

1...Use a FACTORY claw mount with either a STANAG martial (people shooter) scope, or the 30mm ringmount with same. Very close (+-2") eye relief necessary.
2...Purchase a clone of the real HK, and use a pic rail, will be fine w/optic of choice. Much cheaper, and if done properly (just long enough for the ring spacing) will be fine.

Please see my previous pix in this thread for examples.

Conelrad
 
MistWolf said:
Blow back and delayed blow back systems are operated by the gas in the bore which makes them a type of gas operated system.
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You are technically correct sir, the best kind of correct. The case is a one use, throw away gas piston.

Most people would say that a firearm needs to have a separate gas piston besides the case for it to be considered ‘gas operated’. Even more fun are guns that primarily work by recoil but open when the bore pressure is still high to utilize the pressure pressure as an assist to open faster. Recoil + gas operated?

BSW
 
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MachIVshooter said:
PTRs run $900-$1,200 actual retail; There is but one DSA SA58 model that comes in under $1,400.

Be careful taking shots like that; you're far more likely to break rollers or develop headspace issues than the FAL is to crack locking blocks. There's a reason the FAL was adopted by far more nations, dubbed the right arm of the free world. It would have been a US infantry rifle if not for the corruption of Springfield Armory being in bed with the military at the time; the T48 outperformed the T44 in every fair test.

The CETME/G3 design has it's place in gun development & firearm history, but it's at the bottom of the list for me. And yes, I own one. So-so accuracy, violent action, poor suppressor host, optics mounting solutions suck, accessory options not great in general. With .308 ARs well under $1,000 these days, I don't know why anyone would bother with them quite frankly.
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All that and in Sniper variation very accurate with a great optic mounting system IMHO. I won competitions in early/mid 80s with a tuned HK91 , It was stone reliable. I still have it with more than 10,000 rounds thru the polygonal barrel after a couple roller replacements, yes it is worn and about 4MOA accurate where it once was 1 MOA when new. My two FALs, one L1a1 on an imbel reciever , the other a Steyr 58 on an Imbel reciever , both by Arizona Response Systems on as new kits , cannot do better than 1.5 MOA for the Steyr and 2+ MOA for the L1a1 .
But I agree with you sir. Last five years have gone AR10 which is far superior.
 
Got a C91/G3 on spec for a good price. Couldn't be happier. Sold my Zastava M76 (or 77, I forgot which) and needed a .308 semi replacement. Lighter, easier to shoot, more accurate....not to mention I more than doubled my money in the first Covid rush.
 
Looked at objectively, with cost not being a factor, the FAL is better than the G3. But economics tilt the balance in favor of the G3. Not only is the G3 cheaper to make, but H&K was willing to license offshore production (something FN would not do). Thus, you had countries like Greece, Turkey, and Pakistan adopting the G3 and producing it in their own factories. This is why the FAL ended up not being "the right arm of the free world."
 
AlexanderA said:
Looked at objectively, with cost not being a factor, the FAL is better than the G3. But economics tilt the balance in favor of the G3. Not only is the G3 cheaper to make, but H&K was willing to license offshore production (something FN would not do). Thus, you had countries like Greece, Turkey, and Pakistan adopting the G3 and producing it in their own factories. This is why the FAL ended up not being "the right arm of the free world."
Click to expand...

HK would not just license but help set up a factory. Sheet metal and stock goes in, rifles come out. That’s why Iran still uses the design.

BSW
 
AlexanderA said:
Looked at objectively, with cost not being a factor, the FAL is better than the G3. But economics tilt the balance in favor of the G3. Not only is the G3 cheaper to make, but H&K was willing to license offshore production (something FN would not do). Thus, you had countries like Greece, Turkey, and Pakistan adopting the G3 and producing it in their own factories. This is why the FAL ended up not being "the right arm of the free world."
Click to expand...

Hmm...
"The FAL has been used by over 90 countries, and some seven million have been produced.[1][4] The FAL was originally made by Fabrique Nationale de Herstal (FN) in Liège, Belgium, but it has also been made under license in fifteen countries"

Bourne, Mike (2007). Arming Conflict: The Proliferation of Small Arms. Basingstoke: Palgrave-Macmillan. pp. 66–67. ISBN 978-0230019331.

"For a few years, FN FAL rifles were also produced under license by the Greek PYRKAL (ΠΥΡΚΑΛ) factory. FN FAL and FALO rifles were in use by the Greek Army Special Forces and IV Army Corps from 1973 till 1999, and are still in use by the Greek Coast Guard."

" 23px-Flag_of_Turkey.svg.png Turkey: Used by Turkish Land Forces as G1 between 1960s - 1980s."

" 23px-Flag_of_Pakistan.svg.png Pakistan: Used by the Pakistan Army. In service with small numbers used during the Cold War."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_FAL

Comparing the G3 to the FAL,

"The FAL has been used by over 90 countries, and some seven million have been produced."
while the G3 numbers are;
"(the G3) rifle proved successful in the export market, being adopted by the armed forces of over 40 countries.[6] Of that figure, 18 countries undertook domestic production of the G3 under license."
Wikipedia states elsewhere that a high estimate of G3 production numbers are in the 7.8 million range.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most-produced_firearms
 
The Greek standard rifle is the G3. I haven't seen any FALs currently being used there. But increasing numbers of M16s / M4s are in use with the Greek special forces. In the confrontation along the Greek-Turkish land border (on the Evros / Maritza river), both sides are conspicuously using G3s. (The Greek ceremonial guards in Athens are still using M1 Garands.)
 
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