M16 20” @ 500 yards?

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taliv said:
I don’t know where anyone would get the idea that m855 had a tungsten core in the tip.
It does have a steel penetrator.

but it also fragments. Just not as well as m193.
This thread has a good post by ex-mod bart. And also a quote from the old ammo oracle site which sadly no longer exists. It explains the expected fragmentation performance and some testing by fackler. https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/what-the-m855-really-does.189504/
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Well, it may be just steel, but it was designed to penetrate, not to shatter. I’ve seen it past right through a 2x4 just over my head while pulling butts at the range, the same also with the M193. Now 5.56 with come apart when striking hard or thick surfaces, just like many other bullets, but it wasn’t designed to fragment.
I’ve fried 5.56 into vehicles and can tell you that it will penetrate a good bit.
 
Here is a good explanation of the SS109/M855 62 grain bullets. And yes they were designed from the get go for penetration at extended distances. The original intent of the SS109/M855 bullet was to penetrate the steal helmets used by the Soviet Bloc. It was never intended to penetrate modern body armor.

https://www.wideners.com/blog/green-tip-ammo/

Back on subject. Yes you can make hits at 400, 500, or 600 meters with the M16A2 and the AR15 using an A2 barrel. If you can see the target you can hit it at those ranges. And there is a good reason that the A2 rear sight has the elevation drum. It is meant to be used when shooting past 300 meters so that you don't have to use hold overs or as we called it "Kentucky windage".
 
JCooperfan1911 said:
Is it really possible for the small caliber .223/5.56mm to reach out to 500 yards with a 20” barrel? I know the lightweight bullets get blown all to heck the further they go and don’t buck the wind nearly as well as a .308.

I heard many conflicting information on this. Some say it’s a 300 yard affair max. Others say twice that is doable. I know the Marines qualified at 500 yards (meters?) with their M16s BUT had spotters and wind flags correct me if I’m wrong?

How realistically possible is it for a solo shooter in a field type situation, with an iron-sighted 20” AR-15, to hit a man-sized target at 500 yards assuming the rifle is capable of grouping well and the shooter is skilled? What goes in to judging windage at such a long range and is it even realistically possible without range flags and spotters?

Thanks!
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It is doable (and fairly easy from the prone as long as you can read the wind) to shoot an M16 or M4 at a stationary man-size target at 500 yards.

As a point of correction, Marines conducting normal annual rifle training do not use spotters at 500 yards. You shoot alone, but there is another Marine who sits on an ammo can about 5 yards behind you whose responsibility it is to signal the the Marines operating the range if there is an issue with your target point (such as you shot, but the Marines in the pits did not pull down the target to mark).
 
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taliv said:
I don’t know where anyone would get the idea that m855 had a tungsten core in the tip.
It does have a steel penetrator.

but it also fragments. Just not as well as m193.
This thread has a good post by ex-mod bart. And also a quote from the old ammo oracle site which sadly no longer exists. It explains the expected fragmentation performance and some testing by fackler. https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/what-the-m855-really-does.189504/
Click to expand...
They might get the idea that M855 has a tungsten penetrator because a tungsten-nylon and a tungsten-tin compound was an authorized substitute for the lead core.

12991009 - Slug (tungsten-nylon)
HEw93Oq.png
12999731 - Slug, lead free Alternate (tungsten-tin)
tyIlerA.png
 
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So to answer the question for good. As long as you can see the target and are capable of hitting a target at that distance with irons or a scope, then the A2 will definitely allow you to do so even with M855 ammo.
 
12Bravo20 said:
So to answer the question for good. As long as you can see the target and are capable of hitting a target at that distance with irons or a scope, then the A2 will definitely allow you to do so even with M855 ammo.
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Excellent. I am assuming an AK-47 with open sights would not be as useful at 500 yards?
 
With how the sights are on an AK along with its very loose tolerances and the ammo used, it would be a lot harder to hit a target at 500 yards with one. Not saying that you can't do it, but it will be harder to do.
 
Varminterror said:
What’s “effective”? Conversely, as a means of defining effective by defining its antonym, what’s “ineffective”?
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In a military context--not needing to call the MG squad to rain down ammo on the bad guys.

Issue AK is 3-4 MOA, or ±9-12" at 300yds, which ought to be "minute of bad guy." Such thing, in a military context, as "more or less."

7.62x39 will fly ridiculous distances, but it drops out of supersonic around 300m, and that round, per sovbloc design was meant to be aerodynamically base stable only in the Mach range. The 5.56 start out close to Mach 3 at the muzzle and will "carry" that supersonic stability a lot further. Especially in the heavier, better BC, bullets.
 
In military context "effective range" is where an average rifleman is expected to be able to hit a man sized target more times than not. Im not sure of the exact parameters that entails but from what Ive been told, no actual mil documentation Ive seen, it is basically the supersonic range of the rifle round mixed with certain gun details. Machineguns are different as they use the size of a beaten zone to determine effective range.
 
My point exactly - context is everything.

Folks talking about “effective range” without context, eh, it doesn’t make sense. Like @taliv’s comments, context matters. Iron sights are limiting. Mil-surp ball ammo is limiting. Fragmentation potential of ball ammo requiring a high impact velocity is limiting. I scratch my head at a claim that the effective range of an x39 is only 300m, broadly claimed. What we can do with a scoped rifle, quality ammo, and expanding bullets in the civilian world is very different.

CapnMac said:
7.62x39 will fly ridiculous distances, but it drops out of supersonic around 300m
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What load are you shooting which falls transonic at 300m? Big 150’s?
 
Also, M193 or M855 probably wont fragment at longer ranges but they still yaw. A 62 grain hunk of steel hitting you at 1600+ FPS at 500 yards is going to go completely through you and probably is exiting sideways. You hit a guy in the chest with that he is going to die without immediate first aide.

In 2003 during the invasion of Iraq the majority of our fighting was in the open deserts of southern and southwestern Iraq. They average distance of our gunfights there were easily over 300 meters. Once we hit Baghdad it got closer, but most of the fighting was in the suburban areas where we still had wide open spaces, but more vegetation. Everyone in my unit was running either irons or red dots. Most of our budget went to the vehicles as we were a mechanized unit.

I spent my 2005 tour in the eastern province of Iraq called Diyala, close to the Iran border. Our AO consisted of a lot of farmlands, open plains, and thick vegetation where you got closer to the rivers. By this time every rifleman had a red dot and the machine gunners mostly had red dots or the Elcan M145 4x optic. My M240 had irons as my M145 was broken. There again most of our gunfights were at longer rnages. I had the longest shot in my battalion that deployment at 410 meters with my SDMR. I spotted the guy with my naked eye as he was engaging other guys from my unit I was overwatching. I could have hit him with irons as he gave me an easy shot. 1 round of M262 through the abdomen immediately took him out of the fight. My team leader spotted the guys immediately after my first shot and engaged the insurgent team with his red dot sighted M4 using M855. After the first guy went down the insurgents started taking cover and retreated from that position. I dont know if we hit any of the others. We ended up killing 4 or 5 insurgents total that gunfight, all by rifle fire. The guys down in the town were closer but still the closest engagements of that fight were about 200 meters.
 
Per military manuals the maximum effective range for the M16A2 rifle shooting M855 ammunition is 550 meters which is 601 yards. That is the max effective range for a point target. The maximum effective range for an area target is 800 meters. So yes the M16A2 shooting the M855 ammo is effective out to 600 yard as long as the shooter does his part.
 
rabid wombat said:
The military also use max range in contrast to max effective. It is definitional, and up to the user to achieve it.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ective-maximum-range-in-laymans-terms.458497/

https://www.militaryfactory.com/dictionary/military-terms-defined.php?term_id=3284
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The maximum firing range of the M16A2 is 3,600 meters (3,937 yards)
The maximum effective range on a point target is 550 meters (601 yards)
The maximum effective range on an area target is 800 meters (875 yards)

All three maximum ranges are in every M16A4 operators manual and training books given to new recruits. And all three max ranges are drilled into every soldier and marine recruit, they must know all three when asked.

And there are plenty of us that have used the M16A2 to successfully engage targets out to 600 yards. A lot of us have hit man sized targets at 500 meters during weapons qualifications.

My hats off to the guys that shoot very small groups at extended ranges. Shooting at targets for the military is a different thing though. All we have to do is hit the target. It doesn't matter if the enemy is wounded or killed, they are taken out of the fight either way.

And yes I have spent time on two way ranges in different parts of the world, every where from the jungles of Panama to the Middle East and mountains of Bosnia.
 
GunnyUSMC said:
The maximum effective range for the 7.62x39 is 300 meters.
Click to expand...

CapnMac said:
In a military context--not needing to call the MG squad to rain down ammo on the bad guys.

Issue AK is 3-4 MOA, or ±9-12" at 300yds, which ought to be "minute of bad guy." Such thing, in a military context, as "more or less."

7.62x39 will fly ridiculous distances, but it drops out of supersonic around 300m, and that round, per sovbloc design was meant to be aerodynamically base stable only in the Mach range. The 5.56 start out close to Mach 3 at the muzzle and will "carry" that supersonic stability a lot further. Especially in the heavier, better BC, bullets.
Click to expand...

Seven hits for 10 shots at 500yds…
 
Varminterror said:
“The furthest distance” is a range. And you’ve used “effectively” again here...



What’s “effective”? Conversely, as a means of defining effective by defining its antonym, what’s “ineffective”?
Click to expand...
Of all people on this forum, I would have thought that you were one that wouldn’t need something broken down to an elementary leave to understand. But then some people just have bad days from time to time.
The effective range is the distance in which you can hit a man size target, when talking about small arms in the military. But then this may be hard for some people that were never in the military to understand.
The max effective rang of a weapon is the maximum distance that the weapon is capable of hitting the target with enough accuracy and force to kill or disabled the target. Not all soldiers are capable of using a weapon at its maximum effective range.
I think that everyone here knows that a 5.56 round fired from a M16A2 is capable of traveling far beyond 560 yards, but this topic is not about how far the bullet will travel. It’s about, is the M16A2 capable of hitting a man size target at 500 yards. We have several members here that have engaged targets out to 500 meters with the M16 platform effectively.
43FDCD25-4138-4776-A185-24E7952100F9.jpeg
I hope that this post helps you understand what I posted earlier.
I have to admit that 90% of what I post is from memory and off the top of my head. Kind of like sitting around talking with friends. I may not be 100% correct at times, and I know that I’ve been wrong a time or two.
I’m not the guy that searches a database of stored info on my computer or the cut and past type. I try my best to be friendly and polite and won’t post something that I wouldn’t say to someone sitting at a table with me.
 
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