Reality vs Fantasy: the case for .22 Carry

If you have medical issues, .22lr is great, I have been there. Low recoil easy follow up shots, and yes 10 rds of propperly placed .22lr will certainly stop your average aggressor. But its still not what I would consider a first choice defensive round. I have and shoot many forms of rimfire, I especially like .22 WMR, but you really must train to use it, not just pull it.

My NAA mini is easy to carry and I can forget its actually in my pocket.
Five shots of 22mag feels comforting!

I do carry my 9mm or .38spl every once in awhile but the NAA is still along for the ride.

Assuming that the 10 rounds were effective in stopping an attacker... explaining why you had to fire 10 rounds to stop a single attacker may be a less than enjoyable experience. It might be viewed by some as excessive use of force and not self defense.

The potential round count is an issue for me when it comes to choosing a 22 for self defense. All I can say is that if one will do, that is all I will fire whether it be with a 22 or the magnum of your choice. But I practice double taps with my DA 22 revolvers at close range and that is the more likely scenario if I ever had the need to use one to defend myself.

Duble Naught Spy said:

My NAA mini is easy to carry and I can forget its actually in my pocket.
Five shots of 22mag feels comforting!

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The bad guy(s) cares not one bit how you "feel" about your gun/caliber choice, especially one you forget is even in your pocket.

David E said:

The bad guy(s) cares not one bit how you "feel" about your gun/caliber choice, especially one you forget is even in your pocket.

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I think he was hinting on the "carry gun that you can carry 24/7" that makes it feel comforting. My FIE Derringer is usually in my pocket 24/7, feels quite comforting know I've got two shots that won't get in the way of my daily activities. Unless I'm up against multiple armed opponents who are motivated to hurt me (haven't seen nor heard of yet in my area) then I guess I'm in trouble. Most I have to worry about are stray dogs around here. I know, I know.."famous last words".
It's funny, once I got my CCW permit all of a sudden it's not that I am carrying (which is why I got the permit) it's what I'm carrying. Outside the internet I've never caught flak for carrying my .25 automatic..ever. Carry with what makes you feel comfortable, better than following the sheep and not.

Explaining why you fired multiple rounds at your assailant in court is quite simple, you were trying to stop him and were trained as such. Never heard of a case where the number of rounds being shot had any significant. Keep shooting until the bad stuff goes away.

Pyro said:

Explaining why you fired multiple rounds at your assailant in court is quite simple, you were trying to stop him and were trained as such. Never heard of a case where the number of rounds being shot had any significant. Keep shooting until the bad stuff goes away.

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You might want to research this a little more.

Jeff Cooper wrote about a case where he'd been called upon as an expert witness for the defense.

At issue wasn't the fact the defendant was justified in shooting the assailant. The problem was that he shot him so many times.

"Ladies and gentleman of the jury, we agree that the defendant was justified for his claim of self defense for one shot. Two shots, maybe. But 5 shots? My god, he wasn't interested in merely stopping the assault, he was bent on murder!"

The gun in question was a Beretta 84 in .380

The defense eventually won an acquittal, but had to overcome this obstacle in the process. The defendant immediately sold the .380 and bought a .45

Yeah, it comes up.

David E said:

Yeah, it comes up.

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Thanks for the info, first time I've heard of that sort of stuff.
Prosecutors will use anything.

I find it amusing that my post (#60) was not addressed.

Justin said:

I find it amusing that my post (#60) was not addressed.

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Reposted here for convenience:

Justin said:

Have you tried to test your own theories in any way? If so, how did you go about doing it?

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I was thinking about what I've shot with .22's. I've shot crows that have flown away, squirrels that jump from tree to tree and hang on to branches after they have been hit, my moms dresser when I was 10. Ahem, cough, cough. Don't tell her I don't think she ever knew. When you think about the kill zone on a squirrel compared to the total area, the kill zone is almost 1/2 of the target and those buggers still keep going. Because of the damage a .22 will do to the surrounding area I figured that a hit in half of the body would result in immediate incapacitation if not death.

How large is the kill zone on a human compared to the entire body? Heart, brain and spine. 1/10th? Lungs would take a while to die. Now compare the size of the .22 cal round to the squirrel and his kill zone to that of a .22 cal round and a human kill zone.
A hollow point .22 round when expanded will be what, 1/2 square inch? That would make it relatively easy to hit the kill zone on a squirrel. If a squirrel is 8" long by 2" high that gives him a broad side surface area of 16 sq in. That means that round is going to take out about 3% of the body of that squirrel. What is that going to do to a human? At 72' tall and average width of 20" facing the attacker. That gives us 1440 sq in of surface area. That .22 HP is only going to effect damage on (if my math is close) .04% of the body. If I have to be anywhere near as precise when in a SD situation as I do hunting squirrels I would be screwed!

Now I know bullets affect more area than just the surface area of the flattened projectile. This is just a method of comparison that I have been thinking about today.
If anyone whats to jump on my estimates remember that's really all they are, and poor math.

After reading most of the posts on this thread I have come to realize that most of the people here do not realize the power of a 22. I carry a 45 acp conceal carry and also have a 9mm, 380 and a 327. I grew up on a cattle ranch and most of the animals killed there were with a 22. I have seen a lot of cattle shot and dropped with one shot with a 22. I have also seen a lot of misses and poor shots. Everything goes back to shot placement. It really does not matter whether it is 22 or 45 if it is in the right spot it will do the job.

Oh, it absolutely does matter. If it's about shot placement, we could carry needle guns and just put them in the temple every time.

Real life doesn't give you perfect shots.

You need to cause as many cm3 of tissue damage in as short amount of time as possible. I could do the math to demonstrate the difference between the best .22 you can use, and say, a 230 gr. HST that routinely expands to 1.5 times its original diameter, or even assume that neither one will expand. The odds are exponentially higher that the .45 will hit something that the bad guy needs to keep moving. Even more so when you compare which one is more likely to completely traverse a human target with each shot. A cow will stand still and let you put a bullet behind its ear. A bad guy won't.

And I used a .30 carbine pistol to dispatch cattle, after watching one take three .22s and keep screaming.

slicer22 said:

. I wouldn't care to carry anything larger than 9mm; I do wish there were a true pocket 9mm,

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Just how much smaller than a Kahr PM-9 do you need?

Sig has a new 9mm gun coming out, the 938, which is a slightly larger 238

coolluke01

You have perfectly illustrated the ineffectiveness of all handguns without very good shot placement. A squirrel hit with a .22 is about the same scale as a human being hit by an 88mm. Yet the squirrels live for a while without excellent shot placement. What should this tell us about the effectiveness of any handgun round?

igousigloo said:

After reading most of the posts on this thread I have come to realize that most of the people here do not realize the power of a 22. I carry a 45 acp conceal carry and also have a 9mm, 380 and a 327. I grew up on a cattle ranch and most of the animals killed there were with a 22. I have seen a lot of cattle shot and dropped with one shot with a 22. I have also seen a lot of misses and poor shots. Everything goes back to shot placement. It really does not matter whether it is 22 or 45 if it is in the right spot it will do the job.

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Cows don't shoot back.

Now yes, a .22, with excellent placement, will do the deed BUT generating that excellent shot placement under the stress of combat, especially self defense where it may come suddenly, is quite difficult.

The larger and more powerful the round the less need for exact placement.

Hence use the most powerful handgun you can control. For most folks that means something larger than a .22.

Deaf

A good 9mm will have almost 3/4 sq in of surface area. Proper shot placement and penetration will deal a deadly blow. The OP talks of deterring attacks. That's the best I think we can hope for with a few rounds center mass. We hope to stop the attack. I feel the more lead I can put in the BG the faster the better. I feel 9mm is the best for me. I can shoot it faster and more accurately than some larger calibers.
It would take almost 3 .22's to equal one 9mm in weight. If a 9mm is relatively ineffective for the quick kill how much more worthless is the .22. My instructor in LE academy told us to never bring a handgun to a gun fight. Bring your shotgun and deal with the situation with the right tools.
I think there is a point of diminishing returns. The difference between 9mm and 45 cal is not that great. IMHO. From what I can tell you might have a little bit better chance of nicking something vital with the larger caliber. But it's very nominal. Two shots center mass to get the BG's attention and two more with better placement if needed.

Slicer, as I wear cargo shorts and an untucked T-shirt pretty much year round, my .40 cals tend to sit at home and rest, but I don't fully embrace the adage, "Better a mousegun in your pocket than a .45 in your dresser." It doesn't have to be either or. I usually carry a Taurus Model 85 .38 special that you can pick up in stainless steel for right around $300.00. Its kept alone in my front right pocket inside of an Uncle Mike's Inside-the-pocket holster. Even in the cargo shorts with a dress belt, it doesn't sag and isn't obvious.

I recently picked up a Kahr CM9 9mm that is about the same overall size, but flatter, and two or three more rounds. You can find them new for under $400 on-line if you hunt around a bit. It works in an Inside-the-pocket holster too, but is even better in an inside the waistband holster positioned at about 5 O'clock (Never use a small of the back holster. In the event of a fall, car accident, or being shoved over, it is too easy to permanently damage your spine, which comes in handy often.).

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Here is my 2 cents with out reading all the replies.
First my credentials on this matter; 26 years as a paramedic just outside of Washington DC in an area that sees on average close to 200 homicides per year. I have run hundreds of shootings in those years. I also spent 5 years as an investigator with the Medical Examiners office.
Shot placement is most important. I have seen plenty of people survive multiple hits from both 9mm & 45 ACP. I have never seen anyone survive a well placed hit from a 22. They have a nasty habit of ricocheting inside the human body & tearing apart multiple organs & blood vessels as they bounce off of bones. They are also very efficient and have the same effect when bouncing around someones head.
A homicide detective back in the '60s once told me that he had seen more people killed with a 22 (when they were popular for carry) than with all other calibers combined.
I will admit to carrying a 45 & do adhere to the idea that kinetic energy is a hard thing to argue with, but especially at close range a 22 is hard to beat if you want to drop someone like a brick.
Again just my personal observation of real GSWs over 26 years.

So you have seen people survive well placed hits from 9mm and .45? All the gunshot deaths were from .22?

Fallout mike, What I took from boscoman's post is:

*Placement is everything, but I think we knew that.

*Multiple hits from a large caliber are probably not as effective as a well placed hit from a small caliber. But I think we knew that too.

*The terminal performance of a small caliber bullet is different form that of larger calibers. Smaller, lighter bullets are more prone to deflection inside the body and this deflection can cause a small caliber bullet to be as effective as a larger caliber bullet if the bullet is properly placed.

So placement is everything, but we knew that.

bosco, frankly I'm less interested in yours or the ER doc's observations than I am in the coroner's.

And how can you possibly say that "at close range a .22 is hard to beat if you want to drop someone like a brick."? How can you say that any other bullet will be less effective, be less likely to penetrate, more likely to act unpredictably, and less likely to case significant cavity trauma than a .22?

Observations about how many people are hit and killed with .22s say more about how many there are than how effective they are. From your own description, these deaths from .22s sound more like hits on unsuspecting victims. Like the cows mentioned above, they usually have the common courtesy to stand there and let you shoot them, and aren't trying to shoot you back.

When I was 16, me and a few friends were out in the desert with our .22s, shooting anything that moved. (Along with plenty of things that didn't.) We don't know who fired the shot. (We agreed that it wasn't me, I was reloading with the action open at the time,) but my buddy looked down and had a hole right below his right rib section. And an exit wound in the rear, just to the right of the spine. We said a very naughty word, and carried him about a mile back to the truck, and drove as fast as we could to the hospital. He walked out of the ER 20 minutes later with three stiches and a band aid. The bullet entered the front at a shallow angle, skimmed the outside of the skin, did a u-turn, and exited on the other side. It hit nothing but skin tissue. (I now know that the color and amount of blood should have told me the wound was not as serious as I thought it was. But it's still cool to report to basic training and tell the guy giving the first aid class that I have in fact treated a gunshot wound.)

This is one story, from one guy, in one situation. But the fact is, bullets with lower mass do unpredictable things. If my friend had been hit with pretty much ANYTHING besides a .22, would he have made it back to the truck? Would he have lost a lot of blood? One thing I'm pretty certain of, he wouldn't have walked out 20 minutes later with a few stitches.

Placement is everything in a world where the bad guy lets you have perfect placement. The rest of the time it's about causing as much cavity trauma as possible in the shortest amount of time possible. The ten ring may well be ideal, but when I'm fighting for my life, I'll accept the eight ring.