Reality vs Fantasy: the case for .22 Carry

[Kachok]

^^^^^But their families can (unless you are protected by statute) so that is irrelevant.

Not really, in cival court it is one persons word vs anothers if he lives, he could claim that he was not really holding that knive to you, he was just asking what time it was. Third parties can only speculate what happend and that does not carry as much weight, ask any judge. Besides I perfer badguys very very dead, I am just cold like that. I don't use a 357 myself (I am a 40 cal guy) but it sure works for him.

 

[JRH6856]

^^^^
Yes, really. You said "can't sue". Once you get to court, you have been sued. Who might have a better chance at winning is an entirely different question.

 

[Kachok]

Very true, I should have said "sucessfuly sue". Anyway you look at it if someone attack me with a knive (again) I hope they die right then and right there, otherwise they might get off scott free as happend in my case. You know someone who gets away with that will just do it again.

 

[coolluke01]

Kachok. I might suggest that you remember that anything you say on here is public information. If you were ever in a SD situation the things you have just said could be used against you.

Besides I perfer badguys very very dead, I am just cold like that.

It's just something to think about.
I try and make sure that the things I say on here would not be easily used against me. Things that make you look like a hard, premeditating, bada$$ might not be what you want a jury to think.
Just a thought.

 

[Kachok]

Kachok. I might suggest that you remember that anything you say on here is public information. If you were ever in a SD situation the things you have just said could be used against you.

It's just something to think about.
I try and make sure that the things I say on here would not be easily used against me. Things that make you look like a hard, premeditating, bada$$ might not be what you want a jury to think.
Just a thought.

That is why I never list my real name, not here, nor on my linked e-mail, nor on my PC regestration, and I use a public internet connection Big brother is watching.

 

[coolluke01]

That helps. But it's far from foolproof. The ability to find and tie public info to you is amazing.

 

[JohnBT]

"Third parties can only speculate what happend and that does not carry as much weight, ask any judge. "

I have, they say those third parties are frequently called witnesses and their testimony certainly does carry weight.

 

[Kachok]

I make it a point to never leave any way to trace me online, there are people that have been looking for me for years with no luck (not the law don't worry LOL) There are steps you can take to ensure nobody shy of the CIA can find you.....trust me.
Third party witness would carry weight, not third party speculation. I don't know too many scum of the earth lowlifes that bring their mom along for roberies.

 

[Prosser]

An easy prediction is that despite all the emphasis on bigger calibers, the gun industry is in the process of shooting themselves in the foot.
The absurd cost of ammunition in the larger calibers is driving the industry to develop .22lr firearms, at a pretty amazing pace.

I'm delighted by the number of 1911 .22lr's that are coming out currently, at very reasonable prices.
Colt even came out with a couple.

While the industry may want to have us all shooting expensive ammunition,
the new guns, and current economy are going to create a resurgence in the popularity if the .22lr.

The combination of excellent quality guns, cheap price, accurate shot placement, and high capacity are going to put the .22's back in the game.

People like high capacity 9mm's.

I see no reason one of these days we won't be seeing high capacity
.22lr 1911 like CCW guns.

 

[Bullz]

Reasons not to carry a .22lr include but are not limited to:
Failure to feed
Failure to fire
Failure to extract

I have had way more problems with .22lr than with centerfire ammo. Just the fact that .22lr is not as reliable as centerfire is reason enough for me. The only case rupture and squib I ever had was with .22lr.

So even if I thought the .22lr had adequate terminal ballistics (it doesn't) it would lose out based on reliability.

I totally agree with this point. I have several .22lr guns, including pistols and they all fail to fire due to poor primers from time to time. Even my bolt gun will catch crummy primers. And that's on high end ammo. I get about 1 - 2% failure rate on bulk ammo.

I mean, honestly, if the .22 goes through someone's skull, it's going to stop them and probably kill them. But... if the round doesn't even go off, or gets miss fed or whatever... you're done. That's just a simple fact. A rimfire cannot be trusted in an autoloader for self defense. You could carry it in a revolver because at least that way you can pull the trigger again and get a fresh round - then hope to god your luck changes and you aren't too late after the first shot flopped. However, I'm guessing you'd still be DONE. With my luck, I'd have a revolver full of rounds with bad primers.

I don't care who you are or how you rationalize it... A gun carried for defensive purposes has to work reliably and so does the selected ammunition - otherwise there is really no point. If you need a small gun, get one that fires a centerfire cartridge and be sure you test the ammunition for predictable function.

A taser or a knife are both more effective than a .22. Seriously, if you're going to be close enough to push it up someones teeth, you're going to have a much higher success rate with a taser contact vs a bullet contact... and unless the taser kills him, there's no way you'll be on trial for homicide after the fact. Win win. (disclosure: I'll take my .45 to a taser any day).

 

[JRH6856]

I don't know too many scum of the earth lowlifes that bring their mom along for roberies [sic].

Apparently you don't know many "scum of the earth lowlifes." Father, brother, sister, wife, son, daughter...kin is kin.

 

[kayak-man]

history has shown that small 25 ACP firearms and even .22 shorts to had been quite popular amongst the masses in prior decades............i guess without the various gun rags, shooting school experts, and internet information available back in teh dark ages, people still made choices and actually survived."

You're right, small guns have been popular for a long, long time, but we'd be doing ourselves a disservice if we didn't look at the big picture;

I have a pistol in my gunsafe that belonged to my great grandfather. Its a Whitneville Armory .22 (Think NAA Mini, in .22Short, with a seven shot cylinder and a 2.75" barrel, manufactured in the 1800s), and he carried it as a back up gun when he was a cop in San Francisco. I know I wouldn't want to carry a .22Short today, back then, even a small gunshot wound could be lethal due to infection. We've come a long way since then. I wasn't there, so I can't be sure, but I'd imagine that knowing a single gunshot wound could be a death sentence, or cost you a limb, well, I think that would be quite a deterrent. Now though, I think a lot of career criminals aren't going to be intimidated by a smaller gun. They might think twice, and some of the small time guys might be shaking in there boots, but I'm willing to bet theres a couple guys out there who have done time, been stabbed and shot, and will look down the barrel of a .22 and think "Hey, I can take that." I'm not saying that a .22 is useless, or that you shouldn't carry one. Just that medicine has changed over the years, and every now and then, we need to step back and look at the big picture.

I see no reason one of these days we won't be seeing high capacity
.22lr 1911 like CCW guns.

If someone made something like a 1911 in .22LR, but with a 3", or maybe a 2.75" barrel, that would be a neat little backup gun, or as another poster pointed out, great for "No Recoil Orders." or maybe something like the Ruger SR22. Personally, if I was going to carry a .22, I'd want it to be a double action revolver, due to the sometimes unreliable nature of the ammo. Barring that, one of the autos like a 1911 where you have an actual slide you can easily manipulate would be next on my list.

Chris "the Kayak-Man" Johnson

 

[Prosser]

Colts 1911 22's are 80 of real size, one of the reasons I won't be buying one.

Have to bring this in as a single shot, but, a bunch of these are coming up:
https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=59751
Beretta's 87 Cheetah

Sig makes a 22 long rifle Digital desert Camo A

And the Walther P22 has had decent reception.

A bunch of Taurus, and others with very short barrels, and 10 round capacity.

 

[Kachok]

Apparently you don't know many "scum of the earth lowlifes." Father, brother, sister, wife, son, daughter...kin is kin.

Oh I know lowlife scum very very well, I spent years working for the Texas prision system LOL. Maximum security William G. McConnell unit, at the time it was the most dangerous prision in north America, more staff assults, and uses of force then the rest of the system COMBINED!! We called it the gladiator unit.

 

[Prosser]

Sounds like fun work.

Watched some nut jobs in our local area working for a DA. NOT fun.
One guy tried to bust out of handcuffs in the DA's office.

He was lucky he failed, and was wrestled to the ground and taken off by a couple LEO.

 

[JRH6856]

Oh I know lowlife scum very very well, I spent years working for the Texas prision system

I guess you do. I won't try to argue with that.

 

[Kachok]

Sounds like fun work.

Watched some nut jobs in our local area working for a DA. NOT fun.
One guy tried to bust out of handcuffs in the DA's office.

He was lucky he failed, and was wrestled to the ground and taken off by a couple LEO.

We had one guy in McConnell that could not only break his handcuf chains but actualy RIP THE CUFFS OFF!!! That was one scarry dude! Fortunetly he was the type that if you did not mess with him he would leave you alone, and would only rip the cuffs up to scare newbies. Thank goodness because I was not fixing to wrestle him down LOL. He even kicked down his door a few times when someone pissed him off! Yep 1 1/2" thick steel door on rolling steel hinges, he kicked it completly out of the framework.
We had another guy who broke the bulletproof glass with his fist, mind you his hand was a bloody mess afterward, but the glass was all busted up.

 

[JohnBT]

BUT BY GOD IF YOU SHOT THAT BIG BUGGER WITH A .22 IT WOULD STOP HIM FROM ALL HIS MISCHIEF.

If he even noticed. Now imagine that guy on the street after a night of smoking crack or crank.

 

[Prosser]

That's pretty scary, actually REALLY scary.

MY own caliber choices tend to error on the side of size and caution, but,
it's better to have something then nothing at all...

 

[Kachok]

BUT BY GOD IF YOU SHOT THAT BIG BUGGER WITH A .22 IT WOULD STOP HIM FROM ALL HIS MISCHIEF.

If he even noticed. Now imagine that guy on the street after a night of smoking crack or crank.

I would not even want a 40 against someone that tough, give me a 454 or a S&W 500 loaded for bear LOL

 

[Certaindeaf]

Hey homeslice, what's the word?

 

[JohnKSa]

But the odds are exponentially greater that multiple hits from larger bullets are going to hit something the bad guy needs to keep moving.

They are greater, but not exponentially greater. I've spent a good deal of time running monte carlo simulations to get a feel for how a slightly larger caliber actually improves the odds of damaging something important and while it's clearly true that a larger hole damages more and has a better chance of damaging something important, the actual difference in the odds is much more accurately described as "a small increase" than as "exponentially greater".

If you want to look at it from a wound volume standpoint, you'll get more or less the same answer. Using the old FBI wounding statistics available online, one can determine that the commonly recommended self-defense calibers/service pistol calibers (9mm/.357SIG/.40S&W/.45ACP/10mm/.357Mag) will all damage two to three and a half ounces of tissue. If you consider what percentage of an adult human that amounts to (0.1% for a 180lb person), it becomes clear that it's FAR more about WHAT 0.1% of tissue is damaged than it is about whether the percentage of tissue damaged is 0.08% or 0.12%.

Now, if we're talking about .22LR vs. 10mm, that's a little different story.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

They are greater, but not exponentially greater. I've spent a good deal of time running monte carlo simulations to get a feel for how a slightly larger caliber actually improves the odds of damaging something important and while it's clearly true that a larger hole damages more and has a better chance of damaging something important, the actual difference in the odds is much more accurately described as "a small increase" than as "exponentially greater".

If you want to look at it from a wound volume standpoint, you'll get more or less the same answer. Using the old FBI wounding statistics available online, one can determine that the commonly recommended self-defense calibers/service pistol calibers (9mm/.357SIG/.40S&W/.45ACP/10mm/.357Mag) will all damage two to three and a half ounces of tissue. If you consider what percentage of an adult human that amounts to (0.1% for a 180lb person), it becomes clear that it's FAR more about WHAT 0.1% of tissue is damaged than it is about whether the percentage of tissue damaged is 0.08% or 0.12%.

Now, if we're talking about .22LR vs. 10mm, that's a little different story.

Exactly. If that .08 is muscle, lungs, or even heart, the BG will probably still be able to get a round or two off in your direction before succumbing. If that .08 is spinal tissue, everything from that part down is out like a light.

 

[mljdeckard]

I already have a Ciener .22 conversion kit for my 1911, with three 15 rd mags. It would fit all my holsters and accessories. I don't plan on carrying it.

 

[JRH6856]

If that .08 is spinal tissue, everything from that part down is out like a light.

Or more. CNS shock, especially spinal trauma often causes immediate and complete temporary paralysis. Its like the body freezes up until the brain can figure out what is still working.