JustinJ
Member
Why would anybody in one state limit his options by the regulations of another state? And realistically for home defense minimizing weight isn't such an issue, within reason.
50-state legal home defense carbine - a concept
- Thread starter cluttonfred
- Start date
- Status
Ed Ames
Member
Travel is the main reason.
I used to regularly travel to and through California. One of the little hassles of such trips is figuring out which gun(s) I can legally bring with me. Even some of the guns I brought with me when I moved out of the state are now verbotten, and most of what i've acquired since is strictly verbotten, so it can be somewhat of a pain to sort out.
Every hotel, camp site, and suchlike becomes my "home" for the night, so I still want a "home defense" capable gun.
For me, a good travel gun should not be semi-auto simply because of politics. Lever and pump are still quite quick but freak fewer people out for some reason. A 20ga pump, a m92 lever carbine, or anything similar should be fine.
I used to regularly travel to and through California. One of the little hassles of such trips is figuring out which gun(s) I can legally bring with me. Even some of the guns I brought with me when I moved out of the state are now verbotten, and most of what i've acquired since is strictly verbotten, so it can be somewhat of a pain to sort out.
Every hotel, camp site, and suchlike becomes my "home" for the night, so I still want a "home defense" capable gun.
For me, a good travel gun should not be semi-auto simply because of politics. Lever and pump are still quite quick but freak fewer people out for some reason. A 20ga pump, a m92 lever carbine, or anything similar should be fine.
Arizona_Mike
Member
- Joined
- Feb 15, 2013
- Messages
- 3,452
Given your latest post, get a Marlin Guide gun in .45-70 (small and light) and use cowboy level loads. I love my Brockman "hand mortar".
Mike
Mike
Pistol caliber carbines have more penetration, but less effect than high-speed, lightweight .22 projectiles from 5.45x39 and 5.56x45mm rifles. In other words, there is no good reason for not using one of these two rounds. Only moving up past .357 would make the rifle more effective, but pistol cartridges wound by using heavy, slower projectiles than intermediate rifle cartridges. This by nature means bullets from these cartridges penetrate more deeply in both tissue and in structural materials: these are NOT good defensive cartridges when you can put a .223 or 5.45x39mm in the same sized package.
John
John
OP
OP
cluttonfred
Member
Hmmm, what about 5.7 x 28 mm FN?
Ed Ames
Member
Re: the marlin guide 45/70... I think that's another great choice except that the caveat mentioned by JShirley applies in spades to 45/70.
I have a .454 casull lever carbine as my way of having all the problems of a 45/70 ... Overpenetration, recoil, oddball ammo, etc. ... times two since it holds 10+1 rounds.
I have a .454 casull lever carbine as my way of having all the problems of a 45/70 ... Overpenetration, recoil, oddball ammo, etc. ... times two since it holds 10+1 rounds.
Not effective enough. Intermediate cartridges are the "sweet spot" here. They are light enough to be easily controllable, but powerful enough to be decisive. And there are *many* .224 projectiles that have minimal penetration at high velocity, but dramatic terminal effects in tissue. In general, PCCs are an answer waiting for a question. They are not noticeably smaller than carbines in the 5.45x39-6.8 SPC classes.
John
Ed Ames
Member
As far as I can tell pistol caliber carbines have three reasonable justifications.
1) A way around NFA headaches. A sub2k is bulkier than a Glock shoulder stock but much easier to own.
2) A way to address some unusual logistical issues. The cowboy .44-40 of mythology.
3) A way to take advantage of specific surplus ammo availability. Anyone who stocked up on cases of surplus 7.72x25 probably wishes she had a 7.62x25 carbine. That cuts both ways - people used to make .30 carbine handguns.
1) A way around NFA headaches. A sub2k is bulkier than a Glock shoulder stock but much easier to own.
2) A way to address some unusual logistical issues. The cowboy .44-40 of mythology.
3) A way to take advantage of specific surplus ammo availability. Anyone who stocked up on cases of surplus 7.72x25 probably wishes she had a 7.62x25 carbine. That cuts both ways - people used to make .30 carbine handguns.
HoosierQ
Member
They already make one...it's called a Winchester Model 94. 
BSA1
member
Ditto head
Ditto on a Winchester (Marlin) lever action carbine in 30/30.
It is totally Politically Correct as it is mostly associated with movie and TV cowboys wearing white hats.
It is a common cartridge available from Farm Supply stores to Wal-Mart.
It is very effective out to 150+ yards.
It is simple and easy to use.
Recoil is easier on the ladies.
No one than Jeff Cooper described it as the perfect urban home defense gun.
Ditto on a Winchester (Marlin) lever action carbine in 30/30.
It is totally Politically Correct as it is mostly associated with movie and TV cowboys wearing white hats.
It is a common cartridge available from Farm Supply stores to Wal-Mart.
It is very effective out to 150+ yards.
It is simple and easy to use.
Recoil is easier on the ladies.
No one than Jeff Cooper described it as the perfect urban home defense gun.
David E
Member
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2008
- Messages
- 7,459
Is your last name Biden or Bloomberg by chance??
Ah, it can't be Bloomberg, he'd only allow 7 rounds.....
If I'm going to carry the weight and/or bulk of a rifle, then I want the power and range of a rifle. I'm shooting an AR-15 Steel match tomorrow that has targets out to 500 yds. Try that with any pistol caliber carbine.
Last edited:
tyeo098
Member
Lever action 1895 type action in 223 remington.
The .30-30 is only a good urban rifle with handloads- and then, probably only two. Traditional .30-30 rounds are heavy and relatively slow- penetrators, in other words. It can be loaded with any .308 bullets, so a varmint bullet can be loaded- but only 1 in the chamber, and 1 in the tube.
The Hornady FTX may solve this problem, but it'd be easier to pick a rifle that could use more than one brand of ammo.
Ed, none of those seem like real questions, which is a bit insulting. 1&3 definitely are not, and 2 is debatable. A 16" barrel is a 16" barrel, and surplus ComBlock rifle ammo is about as cheap as any centerfire ammo.
John
The Hornady FTX may solve this problem, but it'd be easier to pick a rifle that could use more than one brand of ammo.
Ed, none of those seem like real questions, which is a bit insulting. 1&3 definitely are not, and 2 is debatable. A 16" barrel is a 16" barrel, and surplus ComBlock rifle ammo is about as cheap as any centerfire ammo.
John
OP
OP
cluttonfred
Member
It's funny--odd, not amusing--how quickly people on this board resort to political characterizations. At no point did I say that I supported magazine capacity limits, nor any other gun control regulation. I said that I, personally, feel no need to carry a high-capacity rifle to protect my home and family. I don't think foreign invasion, armed gangs or zombie hordes are likely scenarios. Even in the most dire circumstances, I could grab my M1 Garand, M1917 Enfield or Lee-Enfield No4 Mk1*--even my old Marlin Papoose .22LR--and feel quite at ease. I also like revolvers and Colt 1911s. YMMV.
David E
Member
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2008
- Messages
- 7,459
No, you didn't. You said:
This is totally different from what you say now.
To your original question, your Politically Correct pistol caliber carbine would not sell.
Last edited:
Owl ... remember what I said.
If you make a good product - people will buy it.
But you have to design the carbine for the people who will really use it.
Experienced gun owners will probably not need the HD rifle you are talking about.
It's needed by ordinary people who have to defend their families.
The reason I wanted to put a carbine into the hands of my wife for HD is because she's got a better chance of hitting the target with two hands on the rifle. Not perfect - just better. Handgun loads will work fine - they will put down the assailant if they hit him. I'd prefer not to have rifle rounds inn the gun because they will penetrate multiple walls in the house. Remember - there are kids sleeping in bedrooms nearby. But the carbine has to be very user-friendly, easy to handle and point well, and easy to reload.
KISS - keep it simple.
good luck,
CA R
If you make a good product - people will buy it.
But you have to design the carbine for the people who will really use it.
Experienced gun owners will probably not need the HD rifle you are talking about.
It's needed by ordinary people who have to defend their families.
The reason I wanted to put a carbine into the hands of my wife for HD is because she's got a better chance of hitting the target with two hands on the rifle. Not perfect - just better. Handgun loads will work fine - they will put down the assailant if they hit him. I'd prefer not to have rifle rounds inn the gun because they will penetrate multiple walls in the house. Remember - there are kids sleeping in bedrooms nearby. But the carbine has to be very user-friendly, easy to handle and point well, and easy to reload.
KISS - keep it simple.
good luck,
CA R
barnbwt
member
- Joined
- Aug 14, 2011
- Messages
- 7,340
Noise. Every PCC I've seen is somewhat underwhelming to hear in action--which is kinda what you want in a defense gun, fired indoors. Where's the need for a 100+ yard cartridge for shotgun-range applications? Ammo is also cheap and can be shot at "pistol caliber only" indoor ranges for practice (few rifle ranges in urban settings). It can also be used in pistols (not much of a convenience, but a convenience nonetheless). A much-overlooked aspect of PCCs in today's consumer culture is that they are far, far, far easier and cheaper to build (not assemble) yourself, as well as to reload.
The CX4 would be a wonderful tool if only Beretta could just sell it for 300$. Never heard anything negative about those besides price and the fact it isn't an AR (the AK guys didn't seem to knock it, though
).The "Volks-Karabiner" I'd like to see is a simple blowback tube-gun in pistol caliber that uses AR FCG, safety, and grips, and can be made with the crudest and smallest of manual mills or sheetmetal brakes with little else than a barrel-tap. 3-5 round capacity tube magazine that is easy to make. Less than 100$ in materials, less than 8 hours labor. Cheap, dependable, effective force multipliers good for deterrence and not much else, including sale. A Liberator rifle. It could even be made as a bolt-action in more restrictive environments.
Once outright bans on classes of weapons are struck down (and they will be, unless our RKBA is completely revoked) the strategy will logically shift to making the hobby expensive and out of reach of as many as possible. Inner-city gun stores and FFLs will be driven to shut down, and firearms/ammo distribution will be cut off or taxed prohibitively. Home-building could become a viable means for disadvantaged and disenfranchised folks to get their hands on tools that are capable of defending them (and representing them to the rulers who keep them in bondage
). Cheap parts kits are gone, so the next build-a-gun solution will need to come from whole cloth.TCB
FourTeeFive
Member
The trigger for me was a big negative. Yes, I've read all about the fixes, but I ended up selling mine.
I do, however, love my Olympic Arms K9-GL.
witchhunter
Member
I already have mine.....Winchester Model 1894 .30/30
ECVMatt
Member
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2004
- Messages
- 2,870
CA Raider,
You do not understand terminal ballistics- as I said, and hundreds of scientific tests have conclusively proven, lighweight, fragile bullets at high velocity penetrate less in structures or tissue than handgun bullets do. This is one of the 3 main reasons most SWAT teams have gone to the M4 or AR15 carbines instead of the MP-5 and similar subguns.
Yes, there are many people who believe slow= less penetration. All of these people fail to understand basic principles of bullet dynamics. This article took 2 seconds to find. In the first article penetrating a standard wall plugged the .40 HP and increased penetration to over 3x as much penetration as the .223 HP it was tested against.
John
You do not understand terminal ballistics- as I said, and hundreds of scientific tests have conclusively proven, lighweight, fragile bullets at high velocity penetrate less in structures or tissue than handgun bullets do. This is one of the 3 main reasons most SWAT teams have gone to the M4 or AR15 carbines instead of the MP-5 and similar subguns.
Yes, there are many people who believe slow= less penetration. All of these people fail to understand basic principles of bullet dynamics. This article took 2 seconds to find. In the first article penetrating a standard wall plugged the .40 HP and increased penetration to over 3x as much penetration as the .223 HP it was tested against.
John
USAF_Vet
Member
I'd rather see this as a pump action carbine rather than a semi auto.
While that may limit the gun to rimmed pistol rounds, I don't think that is a major draw back.
Lever actions are ok, but I have ways felt it is too easy to break cheek weld and lose your sight picture with a lever action. Not so with a pump.
So here is my suggestion, although some features are not 50 state compliant.
Polymer stock to save weight.
Short, pump action
16.5" slim profile barrel.
AR style A frame adjustable front sight that should be able to cowitness a RDS.
Integrated top rail optics ready receiver with folding BUIS.
Basically, I'm describing a pistol caliber carbine based on the classic pump action shotgun.
It's user friendly, easy to use, the only real downside is the difficulty in reloading rounds quickly. I've seen some pump action .22 rifles, but I've never handled one. Not sure how they load.
While that may limit the gun to rimmed pistol rounds, I don't think that is a major draw back.
Lever actions are ok, but I have ways felt it is too easy to break cheek weld and lose your sight picture with a lever action. Not so with a pump.
So here is my suggestion, although some features are not 50 state compliant.
Polymer stock to save weight.
Short, pump action
16.5" slim profile barrel.
AR style A frame adjustable front sight that should be able to cowitness a RDS.
Integrated top rail optics ready receiver with folding BUIS.
Basically, I'm describing a pistol caliber carbine based on the classic pump action shotgun.
It's user friendly, easy to use, the only real downside is the difficulty in reloading rounds quickly. I've seen some pump action .22 rifles, but I've never handled one. Not sure how they load.
Ed Ames
Member
I don't know if pumps or levers are easier to work while holding your sight picture. It might actually vary from person to person.
I do know that they used to/maybe still do sell pump HD rifles to get around the legal issues of semi-auto. It should even make JShirley happy since they were available in 5.56 and 5.45.
gunwebsites.net via Google search
I do know that they used to/maybe still do sell pump HD rifles to get around the legal issues of semi-auto. It should even make JShirley happy since they were available in 5.56 and 5.45.
gunwebsites.net via Google search
- Status
