Are you buying ammo at higher than market prices?

Warp said:

Are you saying that part of the market should be ignored when looking at the aggregate market?

I wouldn't think that you are as that would go against what 'market' means.

Click to expand...

Oh great... another 'answer a question with a question'....


No I'm not. That should have been apparent since I mentioned prices from unlicensed undocumented resellers AND I was the one pointing it out AND when I said a market has a price range.

Currently as relating to this thread, that generally being the undocumented unlicensed resellers are charging more than Wally, Midway, Cabelas. Hence, price range.

danez71 said:

Oh great... another 'answer a question with a question'....


No I'm not. That should have been apparent since I mentioned prices from unlicensed undocumented resellers AND I was the one pointing it out AND when I said a market has a price range.

Currently as relating to this thread, that generally being the undocumented unlicensed resellers are charging more than Wally, Midway, Cabelas. Hence, price range.

Click to expand...

No license is required to sell ammunition (not manufactured by you, etc), so I'm not sure why you are stipulating that.

What do you mean by 'undocumented'? It's pretty easy to search completed listings on Gunbroker if you want to go see documentation of what people are paying.

Private sales are part of the market, especially these days.

Warp said:

Walmart's ammunition counter does not exist in a vacuum. You simply can not ignore the rest of the store, and you simply can not ignore what people do in the rest of the store when they show up to look for ammo.

Nobody cares that you don't care what else Walmart sells, because it IS a relevant factor. If you choose to ignore the facts of the real world and you choose to ignore that which makes Walmart's decision work so well, your points become, well, pointless...and nobody cares.

Click to expand...

Ammunition is not a loss leader. Why. It's simple. The market for ammunition is a limited market when compared to food. Whereas everyone is need of such things as bread and milk not everyone is need of ammunition and a loss leader is used to draw in the largest number of people possible thus you use items that will generate the most in store traffic and ammunition won't do that. So for purposes of discussion the ammo counter at Walmart exists in a vacuum.

Queen_of_Thunder said:

A lot of people here say if Walmart raises its prices to some number they call the "market price" that everything will be ok. Not going to happen. First off as I posted earlier the "market price" of an item varies from locale to locale. Using Mike1234567 as an example the market price for 22lr will be higher in his area then it is where I live with 10 Walmart SuperCenters, a Dicks, Big5's, Sports Authority, 2 Academy Sports, Gun Ranges and numerous gun shops where I can purchase ammo. So all of this talk about Walmart raising prices is just Bunk.

BTW for those of you who think Walmart should raise prices I have questions. What makes you think the other retail outlets would follow Walmarts actions. What makes you think that Walmart wants to go from a low cost seller to the high cost retailer. I'm quite sure the other providers would love to see Walmart raise its prices so they can siphon off their customers.

Click to expand...

First you do not need to put quotations around market price. I read your post earlier saying there is no such thing. That is incorrect. Think gas. There are local variances and a national average. Same here. There is localized pricing, even at big box retailers.

Second, I think most of us using wal mart are not specifically referring to that company but hig nox retailers in general who use similar strategies. So nobody is 'calling Wal Mart'

Queen_of_Thunder said:

I'm having problems with that definition as Walmart is the only low cost retailer. None of the other big box retail outlets have the buying power of a Walmart.

Now if I accept your definition as to how "Walmart" is being used then people here are calling for retail outlets to violate the law by colluding on prices. So is this were we are today, asking retailers to break the law and control the price of ammo.

Click to expand...

This has mothing to do with collusion. Good grief.

Whereas everyone is need of such things as bread and milk not everyone is need of ammunition and a loss leader is used to draw in the largest number of people possible thus you use items that will generate the most in store traffic and ammunition won't do that.

Click to expand...

I completely disagree 100%.

Loss leaders are put out there to attract different markets. If Walmart advertises a loss leader for milk or cereal or frozen entrees I wouldn't notice but many others do. If they put out a loss leader for medical items like pain killers or vitamins, I may notice and a substantial market wouldn't. Not everybody buys the loss leaders. That's why each department has one or two.

Ammo does bring in people to the store. Read these threads. How many have mentioned checking out the ammo and leaving with other items. How many have gone in to buy an item and left with something entirely different. It's called cross-merchandising and it's deliberate and it works. Walmart does it better than anybody along with their buying power.

They often have loss leaders for whole chickens or steak. Many people have no use for steak but they offer it anyways. Same with ammo. They know it draws people into the store whether it's on sale, in stock or not. It's a draw that feeds their coffers. Don't dismiss the power of walking thru the doors of any business. That's one reason why I don't get some FFLs to not want the transfer traffic. Geez, you transfer a gun for $XX and they are in your store with money in their pocket. Do you know how much it costs a typical retailer to get a customer into your store? A lot more than you'd think. Ammo brings in people. To say otherwise means you don't understand merchandising.

RE Walmart marketing (pricing) strategy: Why is my local WM .223 Rem/5.56 NATO still $10.47/bx when other WM stores are now selling for $7.47/bx? How does WM strategy differ from area-to-area? How does this strategy help with WM "lowest prices" reputation? This is ordinary Federal LC XM193 and Independence XM193.

Agsalaska said:

First you do not need to put quotations around market price. I read your post earlier saying there is no such thing. That is incorrect. Think gas. There are local variances and a national average. Same here. There is localized pricing, even at big box retailers.

Second, I think most of us using wal mart are not specifically referring to that company but hig nox retailers in general who use similar strategies. So nobody is 'calling Wal Mart'

Click to expand...

So let me get this straight. You are using the term "Walmart" to represent the big box sporting goods companies like Dicks,Cabela's,Academy Bass Pro and others. Is this correct.

So when its said that walmart should raise its prices on 22lr to a "market price" what is really being said is that all of the big box sporting goods retailers should enter into a conspiracy to control the price of ammunition. Is this the position being pushed forward in this discussion, the violation of law. Pretty sure supporting the the violation of law is frowned upon by THR.

Mike1234567 said:

RE Walmart marketing (pricing) strategy: Why is my local WM .223 Rem/5.56 NATO still $10.47/bx when other WM stores are now selling for $7.47/bx? How does WM strategy differ from area-to-area? How does this strategy help with WM "lowest prices" reputation? This is ordinary Federal LC XM193 and Independence XM193.

Click to expand...

Don't feel bad my local walmart is selling it at that price too. I was kinda of shocked to learn that there was variation in prices from one walmart to another. I don;t know what made me think that there would be such price variation within one city.


OH well all of this walmart talking has me wanting to make a run of the walmarts in my area. Heck I'll check the Big5 too while I'm out. So I'm off to see if any 22lr is available close by.

Sam1911 said:

So you then must be saying you think the market price will fall BELOW what WalMart sold Bobby Hoarder that brick for?

So you think we'll see $10 - $15 bricks of .22s next year? Well, that's a bold prediction. I don't think many folks are going with you there, but I sure hope so!

Click to expand...

I think that the point is that there is no reason to buy readily available ammo at retail prices from private parties. There is some risk there. If Wal-Mart is filled with 525 bulk packs, someone will have to price below that to move It.

Surplus ammo like 7.62x25 and Yugo 7.62x39 is sold and gone. The only way to get that ammo is from private sales.

Warp said:

No license is required to sell ammunition (not manufactured by you, etc), so I'm not sure why you are stipulating that.

What do you mean by 'undocumented'? It's pretty easy to search completed listings on Gunbroker if you want to go see documentation of what people are paying.

Private sales are part of the market, especially these days.

Click to expand...

Just another way of saying scalper. Kind of like manual firing inhibitor thumb lever... LOL. (I was referring to business license. They are engaging in business with the intent to make a profit. Heck, tons of cities want people to get a business license if they have more than like 4 garage sales a year.)


Private sales absolutely make up part of the market. The key word is "part".

All I was saying is that one segment of the market doesn't determine what the market price should be at that is what it SEEMS like people are saying (scalper pricing or close to it.).

Scalping and Hoarding

Many of those posting to this thread don't realize they have confessed to being a scalper or hoarder. Others do realize this, and they don't care. Both are the major part of the problem.

Objectivity, by others viewing this thread, clearly discloses this.

If you have more than you need, for whatever reason, you have created the problem, and continue it.

Queen_of_Thunder said:

So let me get this straight. You are using the term "Walmart" to represent the big box sporting goods companies like Dicks,Cabela's,Academy Bass Pro and others. Is this correct.

So when its said that walmart should raise its prices on 22lr to a "market price" what is really being said is that all of the big box sporting goods retailers should enter into a conspiracy to control the price of ammunition. Is this the position being pushed forward in this discussion, the violation of law. Pretty sure supporting the the violation of law is frowned upon by THR.

Click to expand...

I have to give you credit queen. There are no barriers in the world today that can contain your imagination.

We are talking about allowing prices to adjust to market demand. Just like any other normal good. We are not discussing collusion.

Agsalaska said:

I have to give you credit queen. There are no barriers in the world today that can contain your imagination.

We are talking about allowing prices to adjust to market demand. Just like any other normal good. We are not discussing collusion.

Click to expand...

Really? Because most of what I read is that (paraphrasing) all of the retailers that are below about $30 need to raise their price to market price.

All while seemingly failing to realize or accept they those 'low price leaders' ARE in FACT part of the market price.

Market price being a price range due to the fact that its a free market.


Its simple really.

If the scalpers and CTD are selling it for $50 and Wally/Cabelas etc are selling it for $30, the Market price is a range of $30-$50.

(Using simple math for easiness) The Average Market Price would be $40.


But it seems that what is mostly being said in this thread is that Wally's/Cabelas need to raise their price to, or close to, the scalper pricing because that's supposedly market price.

And the fact is, Wally has risen prices... just not NEARLY as much as others have. But they have raised prices around me anyways.


But I don't remember seeing any posts that say the scalpers need to lower their price closer to Wally/Cabelas.


Walmart is no more the market price than the scalpers and vice versa. Market price is a range unless its being control.

22plinker said:

I'm not proud to say I overpaid for a pound of powder.
I was at the Peoria. IL .Bass Pro and they had a couple pounds of a powder I had been needing. They were unmarked but with that big a company I expected no surprises . At checkout I was hit with the $40 price for 1lb.
Rather than make a scene with a line behind me I just paid it.
Still regret that experience. We should always remember we vote with our wallet at these places .

Click to expand...

Good grief man, go to Dave's Trading post in Pekin. He has TONS of powder and he's not gouging.

I have paid slightly elevated prices for a few items. I'm at a point in my life where I can afford the luxuries that I couldn't in my youth. I enjoy the shooting sports, that's how I like to spend my spare time.
If I can afford to make a purchase that will let me enjoy myself shooting, that I couldn't do if I didn't make the purchase, I find it to be money well spent. Now I haven't purchased anything stupid expensive, at least by some standards. But I do shoot Eley Match .22 ammo (black box) which is expensive, but it was always expensive even before and it's what my Anschutz likes best. I bought enough reloading supplies to last me for a bit over a year and I will try to stay with that pattern.

I look at it this way, if I'm running out of say Varget and can't reload enough for another match, then that extra 10 - 15 bucks will give me another roughly 275 shots or three matches. When I look at the total expense of what I'm spending with gas, entry fees and other components, it's not that big of a deal. But I'm not out shooting every day either. Between rimfire and high power I'm only shooting about 80 shots a week. I can also practice with my Steyr air rifle if I feel I'm going through to much of my supplies too quickly.

OK I read through SOME of the posts in this thread then skimmed over the last half of the pages.

And now I'm going to trainwreck the whole thing.

How did a school shooting with an AR-15 lead to the most phenomenal shortage of 22 ammunition the world has ever seen?

I mean, here we are, sitting at our computers 14 months after the fact, and 22 ammunition is still scarce as hens teeth.

Yet I can run out and buy a case of 1,000 5.56mm ammo right now if I wanted to. (Tons of it sitting at the gun shop, not selling at the price they're asking.)

This absolutely baffles me.

I mean, it really, really does.

How did a school shooting with an AR-15 lead to the most phenomenal shortage of 22 ammunition the world has ever seen?

I mean, here we are, sitting at our computers 14 months after the fact, and 22 ammunition is still scarce as hens teeth.

Yet I can run out and buy a case of 1,000 5.56mm ammo right now if I wanted to. (Tons of it sitting at the gun shop, not selling at the price they're asking.)

Click to expand...

People don't want to pay the current price to shoot .223, or to replace the .223 they have at home if they dip into their stash. But they all still want to shoot, and .22 is cheap and plentiful... or it was...

danez71 said:

Really? Because most of what I read is that (paraphrasing) all of the retailers that are below about $30 need to raise their price to market price.

All while seemingly failing to realize or accept they those 'low price leaders' ARE in FACT part of the market price.

Market price being a price range due to the fact that its a free market.


Its simple really.

If the scalpers and CTD are selling it for $50 and Wally/Cabelas etc are selling it for $30, the Market price is a range of $30-$50.

(Using simple math for easiness) The Average Market Price would be $40.


But it seems that what is mostly being said in this thread is that Wally's/Cabelas need to raise their price to, or close to, the scalper pricing because that's supposedly market price.

And the fact is, Wally has risen prices... just not NEARLY as much as others have. But they have raised prices around me anyways.


But I don't remember seeing any posts that say the scalpers need to lower their price closer to Wally/Cabelas.


Walmart is no more the market price than the scalpers and vice versa. Market price is a range unless its being control.

Click to expand...

Close. The market price is the average sales price. The reason 'scalpers' exist is because of shortages caused by the bare shelves at the big box retailers. The reason those shelves are bare is because they are priced well below the average sales price. There is a pretty simple philosophy that if you consistantly sell thru a product before your next shipment you have that product underpriced. Scalpers as you call them fill the void. but they do not create it. We do not want the big retailers to raise their prices to the highest price, just the average. The scalpers only exist because this has not happened. If it would, and invenotry would become more available, the scalpers would disappear. It is never healthy for any product to have a variance in price on like items loike we see right now for 22lr. Market forces will always try to pull them closer.

There have been a lot of posts discussing wal mart and other big boxes about why they are behaving this way, whether it is short term or long term strategy, pricing contracts, or something else. And unless you work there nobody will know for sure. But the above paragraph is the problem at a very basic level founded on very basic supply and demand and supply chain economics. There is plenty of good debate about why it persists and how it affects, either positively or negatively, the entire industry, and thats all good topic. But the basic problem is what it is.

The problem with scalpers would end very quickly, if they were made to pay taxes on the profits they make flipping their retail purchases, IMO of course. Also as they seem to have made a ongoing business they should be required to obtain the required licenses and permits to operate their so called business. Again IMO.

We could stop the scalping if the internet went away. Then nobody would understand why there is a shortage and nobody could go to GB and pay stupid prices.

That's not going to happen any more than WM is going to change their corporate pricing strategies to help alleviate a problem with availability of a non-essential item that maybe 3% of their customers even know they stock.

Now if toilet paper gets to be in short supply.......

Gun Master said:

Many of those posting to this thread don't realize they have confessed to being a scalper or hoarder. Others do realize this, and they don't care. Both are the major part of the problem.

Objectivity, by others viewing this thread, clearly discloses this.

If you have more than you need, for whatever reason, you have created the problem, and continue it.

Click to expand...

What is the definition of "more than one needs"? When I had my .22 LR rifles I was shooting a LOT of that caliber. After selling my rifles I now need NONE of it. I WAS going to buy at least one rifle in .22 LR but, given the current ammo shortage, I'm no longer inclined to. The 14K or so rounds I bought a few years ago (when it was cheap and easy to find) would normally have lasted a year or two at my then level of consumption. Many of us bought ours years ago... at the very same time anyone else could have but didn't. Now that we despicable hoarders have more than we need we're suddenly evil. Well, I have and you don't. You could have but didn't. Sour grapes...

EDIT: I've bought precisely 600 rounds in the last four years... a 100 rd box of Rem Match and a 500 rd brick of Thunderbolt. I bought those in the last couple months (just to see if I could) and I GAVE the 500 rd brick away. I'm giving the 100 rd Match away too soon. So you can't accuse me of gouging. The stuff I bought years ago when anyone else could have... I'm selling on GB for every dime I can get. BTW, I have a six month supply of food stashed away. Food is cheap and plentiful right now. When a disaster strikes are you going to be bitter about my lack of hunger while your family goes hungry or are you going to be responsible and stash food and water away for a rainy day... while it's plentiful and cheap now? Isn't it better to have what one needs and stop buying in the very lean times when others are scrambling to survive?

LGS had Blazer Brass ammo 9x19 at $16.99 per 50. Gee, I would hate to live where the only ammo source is Walmart.

Agsalaska said:

Close. The market price is the average sales price. The reason 'scalpers' exist is because of shortages caused by the bare shelves at the big box retailers. The reason those shelves are bare is because they are priced well below the average sales price. There is a pretty simple philosophy that if you consistantly sell thru a product before your next shipment you have that product underpriced. Scalpers as you call them fill the void. but they do not create it. We do not want the big retailers to raise their prices to the highest price, just the average. The scalpers only exist because this has not happened. If it would, and invenotry would become more available, the scalpers would disappear. It is never healthy for any product to have a variance in price on like items loike we see right now for 22lr. Market forces will always try to pull them closer.

There have been a lot of posts discussing wal mart and other big boxes about why they are behaving this way, whether it is short term or long term strategy, pricing contracts, or something else. And unless you work there nobody will know for sure. But the above paragraph is the problem at a very basic level founded on very basic supply and demand and supply chain economics. There is plenty of good debate about why it persists and how it affects, either positively or negatively, the entire industry, and thats all good topic. But the basic problem is what it is.

Click to expand...

I agree enough with what you said to not quibble about it.

However, In regards to the bolded part.......

If...IF... what some are saying is true (its the scalpers, hoarders, preppers etc causing the shortage) then what could/would happen is that those same people buy everything on the self at the stores, create the shortage again, and sell it even higher.

IOW, Wally etc raise price to the fictional $40 average price, Sam Scalper, Phil Flipper, and their friends buy it all up and instead of selling it for $50... they now sell it at $60.

That would fall under market manipulation.

Eventually, that theory reaches critical mass and no one buys 22 at all causing a major shock to the system.

I'm not saying Im convinced that's the case. Just playing out that theory.


IME, if Wally raised to the fictional $40, it will only very marginally helpful UNLESS people stopped buying from scalpers as to take that demand out of the equation. (Its not really taking the demand totally out, its taking the real net demand and funneling it back through the tradition supply chain, thus eliminating the new scalper middleman.)


Don't like the term scalper? I don't mean it derogatory. Would you prefer unlicensed undocumented reseller?

danez71 said:

I agree enough with what you said to not quibble about it.

However, In regards to the bolded part.......

If...IF... what some are saying is true (its the scalpers, hoarders, preppers etc causing the shortage) then what could/would happen is that those same people buy everything on the self at the stores, create the shortage again, and sell it even higher.

IOW, Wally etc raise price to the fictional $40 average price, Sam Scalper, Phil Flipper, and their friends buy it all up and instead of selling it for $50... they now sell it at $60.

That would fall under market manipulation.

Eventually, that theory reaches critical mass and no one buys 22 at all causing a major shock to the system.

I'm not saying Im convinced that's the case. Just playing out that theory.


IME, if Wally raised to the fictional $40, it will only very marginally helpful UNLESS people stopped buying from scalpers as to take that demand out of the equation. (Its not really taking the demand totally out, its taking the real net demand and funneling it back through the tradition supply chain, thus eliminating the new scalper middleman.)


Don't like the term scalper? I don't mean it derogatory. Would you prefer unlicensed undocumented reseller?

Click to expand...

No. I dont mind the word scalper. And, to address what I bolded, the reason I do not believe this would happen is everything bought is not being resold. Only a % of it. What % is anyone's guess. But I think it is fair to assume that it is well less than half. The economics of the price increase would discourge hoarding, making it impossible for resellers to profit off of those that do not. To your point, it certainly would continue to a point. But eventually, if the big box raise prices, the amount being bought for personal consumption would decline no matter what the scalpers did. Also, they have limited capital. If all of a sudden the price doubled many of the resellers could not continue to do what they are doing today. The high resellers disappear because there is product on the sales floors.

If it did happen, however, you are right. Eventually nobody buys anything. And you know what happens then? Deep discounts.