Are rifles harder to master than a shotgun for HD?

Are rifles harder to master than a shotgun for HD?

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Like virtually any other HD question, this is unanswerable. The "best" gun for a HD situation is dependent upon an almost infinite number of factors and can pretty much only be determined after the fact.

qwert65 said:

I really think it depends on personal choice , training, AND the layout of the particular home. For example in my layout someone entering my bedroom would be about 10-12 feet away. I think a 4 inch pattern would be useful in a stresseful, just woke up situation

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What shotgun/choke/shell have you tested for a defensive, 4" spread at 10 feet?

Mossberg 500 cyl choke, - the cheap 2.75 army overruns

I know you hate the 5.7, Mach,

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No, I don't. I just hate the fanboyism and hyperbole surrounding it and the foremost firearms in which it is chambered. I actually intend to build a superlight bolt action pack rifle so chambered.

I also never offered an opinion on the P90 as an HD weapon, so you're arguing with me about things I never said. I simply 100% disagree with the assertion that civilian home defense had a thing to do with the P90's design parameters.

And it most certainly was designed to replace SMGs like the MP5PDW:

The FN P90 is a personal defense weapon (PDW) designed and manufactured by FN Herstal in Belgium.[9] Created in response to NATO requests for a replacement for 9×19mm Parabellum firearms, the P90 was designed as a compact but powerful firearm for vehicle crews, operators of crew-served weapons, support personnel, special forces, and counter-terrorist groups

-Wiki, cited references

However, as a semi-auto weapon for civilians, that low recoil facilitating better accuracy with a very high ROF is kinda useless, as the far more powerful 5.56x45 is more than controllable by even very small statured shooters in an AR weighing no more than the PS90 (6.3 lbs) and barely longer.

You can use your PS90 (or SBR'd P90 clone) if you like, but I'll keep my SBR'd AR

I figured my question would stir up some comment. What I was getting at was the fact that about 99% percent of the opinions you read about "what's the best home defense weapon" is just that, opinions.

WestKentucky said:

This guy didn't read the post...he's a dummy...look at that, it's me..

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Not at all. What no one points out is that the Box O' Truth test was done with cheap Wolf buckshot which uses nothing to control the pattern. Patterns from the Wolf are larger at range and open up more unpredictably than higher quality buckshot ammo. The patterns from the cheap Wolf is atypical

"...a blog..." Friggin' things are the absolute worst thing about the Internet. They opinions, usually of people who actually know very little. Saddest thing about 'em is there are people who think having one is a job and/or training for having a real job.
"...all you have to do is pull trigger..." Um, no. Anything that goes bang needs to be aimed. The only time you're even close to 'just pointing' a shotgun is when you're shooting birds or other flying things like clay targets.
"...noise and flash. Rifles are loud..." So are shotguns. Muzzle flash of a 12 gauge is about 2 feet plus long. Way bigger than a rifle's muzzle flash. Just isn't visible in day light. However, it's more about being inside when you fire either. Your hearing is permanently damaged with either, as well. A .22 CB will cause permanent hearing damage.

Always fascinated about concern for hearing damage in life and death situations.


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X-Rap said:

Always fascinated about concern for hearing damage in life and death situations.

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Well, if you are planning on surviving such situations, it isn't such a bad idea to plan on ways of retaining your pre-existing level of hearing (e.g., I keep a set of Peltors in my nightstand).

That said, if I happen to be, say, transiting a pedestrian tunnel when suddenly confronted with a L&D situation, one of the last things that I will be worrying about is my hearing.

X-Rap said:

Always fascinated about concern for hearing damage in life and death situations.

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I find it fascinating that some people don't care if they noticeably lose hearing or get tinnitus when it is preventable.

I also wonder if people realize that having all that hearing damage from the first shot fired may impair your ability to continue defending as well as your ability to communicate with others/family/first responders.

Suppressors come to mind, of course, here.

macgrumpy said:

Shotgun for me.

More hits on the target for the one or two shots you'll take during the couple of seconds that you'll have to shoot. I'd rather put 9 .33 caliber impacts on the target than one .223 caliber hit. A normal .223 round will put about 1300 ft-lbs of energy on the target but 9 double 00 pellets will deliver about 1500 ft-bls of energy. The average guy isn't going to be able to make a nice center of mass 9 round, 4 inch pattern with their AR, I'd bet that half those rounds will be sprayed all over the room. But with a shotgun you can put 9 .33 caliber hits inside of 4 inches with one shell.

Recoil? I doubt that the average person is going to notice it for the one or two shots that they are going to be able to get off. I'd only worry about it if I thought that I was going to get in to a protracted fire fight - which I don't see happening in a real home defense situation. Just remember, even with a shotgun you need to aim the front bead on to the target.

Most of you guys sound like you are talking about the kind of gun fight a military person or a cop would get involved with, not the kind of situation an average person would get in to with a home invasion situation.

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Even though I personally keep a handgun for HD, I agree with macgrumpy. Of course,not everyone leads the life style where they can leave a shotgun or rifle laying out. Even if is is just over night. Not to mention that a lockable case next to the nightstand that size is unacceptable in most cases. I have something I can keep out of reach from little hands that I don't have to worry about picking up in the morning. It all depends on the individuals needs.

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On area of "competence" with a firearm has been left out in the thread - cleaning and servicing. If someone cannot disassemble, clean, and reassemble their firearm correctly their chances of having a working firearm when they need it diminishes significantly. For me that is a big strike against semi-autos for people that aren't willing to take the time to learn how to use a firearm. (Which sadly is most gun owners)

In my opinion the best gun for home defense is a full frame revolver. Easy to shoot, easy to clean, easy to properly and safely store.

It doesn't get much easier than a Glock for disassembly and cleaning. Throw a light on it and there you go.

JSH1 said:

On area of "competence" with a firearm has been left out in the thread - cleaning and servicing. If someone cannot disassemble, clean, and reassemble their firearm correctly their chances of having a working firearm when they need it diminishes significantly. For me that is a big strike against semi-autos for people that aren't willing to take the time to learn how to use a firearm. (Which sadly is most gun owners)

In my opinion the best gun for home defense is a full frame revolver. Easy to shoot, easy to clean, easy to properly and safely store.

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...what?

A monkey could field strip and re-assemble most of the popular semi auto handguns today...and an AR15 style rifle too.

I think most gun owners would have no problem at all doing necessary maintenance on the popular semi auto handguns (or an AR type rifle). I mean, it doesn't really get any easier than that.

Of course not all home owners go through thousands of rounds in their firearms either. I don't think that someone needs to shoot that many rounds or practice THAT much to be "compitent". I have been around guns my whole life. I have hunted, target shot (for fun), and sight my rifles in every year before hunting season. I have many guns that range from handguns, shotguns, and rifles. There are very few of my guns that I have put thousands of rounds through. There are some I have not put hundreds through. They stay clean, oiled, and are considered very reliable. I don't believe that everyone needs extensive training or cases of ammunition shot to be competent.
Just my 2 cents.

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Warp said:

...what?

A monkey could field strip and re-assemble most of the popular semi auto handguns today...and an AR15 style rifle too.

I think most gun owners would have no problem at all doing necessary maintenance on the popular semi auto handguns (or an AR type rifle). I mean, it doesn't really get any easier than that.

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That is easy to say that if you know how to do it or have someone to teach you. If you are the typical person that goes to the gun counter, buys the gun, at takes it home? No so much.

evidrine said:

Of course not all home owners go through thousands of rounds in their firearms either. I don't think that someone needs to shoot that many rounds or practice THAT much to be "compitent". I have been around guns my whole life. I have hunted, target shot (for fun), and sight my rifles in every year before hunting season. I have many guns that range from handguns, shotguns, and rifles. There are very few of my guns that I have put thousands of rounds through. There are some I have not put hundreds through. They stay clean, oiled, and are considered very reliable. I don't believe that everyone needs extensive training or cases of ammunition shot to be competent.
Just my 2 cents.

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This is where quantifiable, measurable, repeatable standards are highly valuable.

I'm just going to chime in on the difference in sound argument. I've been next to folks shooting AR's/AK's at the local indoor range I frequent, but today was the first time there was someone shooting a shot gun.

7-8 lanes to my left a young man was blasting 12g slugs off and 3-4 lanes to my right was a couple of guys taking turns with an AR. It was a night and day difference in the sound. The shot gun was waaay louder than the rifle.

I'm just glad I wan't in the next lane over from the guy shooting the shot gun. And the 2ft muzzle flash someone else mentioned on here was very present in the medium light of the range from 25-30ft away.

Yeah...12 gauge shotguns firing buck/slugs are indeed very loud, even more so with the 18-20" barrels typically seen on an HD use shotgun. The only thing that, IME, would make the AR noticeably harsher, is if somebody were to unwisely put a nasty muzzle brake on their supposedly defensive AR (and not have a suppressor over the top)

Warp said:

Yeah...12 gauge shotguns firing buck/slugs are indeed very loud, even more so with the 18-20" barrels typically seen on an HD use shotgun. The only thing that, IME, would make the AR noticeably harsher, is if somebody were to unwisely put a nasty muzzle brake on their supposedly defensive AR (and not have a suppressor over the top)

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Yeah, I've been next lane over from that as well (brake on an AR), still no comparison to the sound of that shot gun.

There were two guys exactly 2 lanes over to my left today that were shooting some kind of lever action rifle though. That was almost as loud as the shot gun and considerably louder than the AR guys to my right.

I wish I would've talked to them. The rounds looked almost like .45's to me but I have no idea what they actually were. But they were LOUD.

Well, if you are planning on surviving such situations, it isn't such a bad idea to plan on ways of retaining your pre-existing level of hearing (e.g., I keep a set of Peltors in my nightstand).

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I think the idea he was conveying was that you have seconds to save your life and/or others. While it might be a once in a lifetime event you and those you protect are safe, tinnitus be dammed.

Exactly, I have severe hearing loss and tinnitus and know that it is cumulative.
There are many things in work and recreation that I would do differently to preserve my hearing if given the chance but worrying about that one small chance that I'd have to shoot in an enclosed environment to save me or my family isn't even on the radar.
Having shot in such confines in the past I've never found them debilitating or disorienting albeit loud so everyone do as they wish but my advice is to save your hearing day to day rather than freak out over a statistical improbability.

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I simply 100% disagree with the assertion that civilian home defense had a thing to do with the P90's design parameters.

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Oh, of course it wasn't designed for civvies; my point is the military design parameters align almost perfect with domestic defense needs --kinda like that SBR 223 of yours in that respect. A happy coincidence

However, as a semi-auto weapon for civilians, that low recoil facilitating better accuracy with a very high ROF is kinda useless, as the far more powerful 5.56x45 is more than controllable by even very small statured shooters in an AR weighing no more than the PS90 (6.3 lbs) and barely longer.

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By ROF I'm not referring to its cyclic rate, but to the speed at which a shooter can easily reacquire a target and deliver a subsequent shot; it's very rapid with the PS90. It's also rapid with 223 compared to battle rifle cartridges, because neither is enormously powerful objectively, but still jumps around more than 5.7 (especially in a lightweight SBR format). Is the additional power really worth it at close-contact distances? In my estimation, no, since a COM shot with 5.7 or 223 will both be grave, but your calculus may be different. If that SBRd AR is also suppressed (looks like a can, there) then I agree it's a very formidable & capable platform for defense; but a two-stamp gun simply isn't in the offing for everyone.

It's also funny that you'd bring up the 'armor piercing' portion of the NATO requirements, considering 223 far exceeds them by virtue of its 3X higher ballistic energy --just something I've noticed in many 5.7 threads from folks; it gets tossed out as some 'ridiculous' feature with no applicability to civilians, who then turn around and advocate for a bullet that will do the exact same thing and then some without the need for fancy ammo . Me, I don't really care about the AP feature; I love that it shoots like a rifle but kicks like a pistol carbine.

I just hate the fanboyism and hyperbole surrounding it and the foremost firearms in which it is chambered.

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I'm a huge fan, but not a fan boy; I agree there are a lot of people with wildly unrealistic expectations out there, namely those who think 5.56 is even a competitor rather than service-pistol rounds. It's lower-end 9mm effectiveness. Which is also exactly good enough (but not much more than that) as a hundred years' experience has shown. The 5.7 is able to approximate that performance while exceeding both weight, capacity, and range limits of its nearest competitors. My logic is a domestic defensive role means range is of the very short variety, which means there is no need for a cartridge powerful enough to deliver decisive blows through light cover hundreds of yards away; this suggests something in the pistol-power range of cartridge. The PS90 is probably the best PCC available by the numbers*, hence my endorsement of it.

TCB

*By the numbers means not factoring in personal preference (although it's much lighter than an MP5, and softer shooting than a 9mm AR)

PS- would love to hear more about that 5.7 bolt gun. I've long suspected the blowback nature of its platform is a severe limiting factor to the cartridge's potential. Its small, brief pressure impulse suggests that stuffing a heavy-for-caliber VLD bullet in there would yield a very quiet subsonic round (miniature Blackout, in other words) that is still centerfire

... rather than freak out over a statistical improbability.

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That pretty much sums it up for most of us, just something to talk about and will never be an issue (but you could also be "that guy").

I can tell when something is moving around my chicken coop at any hour of the day or night 100 yds from where I am sleeping. The alert is enough to wake me, at least better than my wife can keep me from snoring.

The likely hood of getting inside my house is, well not very likely but that is mostly due to the fact that armadillos can run anywhere they want except in the few thousand square feet I irrigate around the house, if your inside that area, your not allowed, and I know if something that small is there.

However, skunks get a pass, even if I was having a good dream....

It always amazes me that folks will spend so much time thinking about what to do once someone is inside their house but they never spend any time knowing what is going on right outside.

Anyone knows that you can get in something, most houses it would be as simple as a rock. Knowing something is there before entering would give you an advantage that is likely greater than what kind of defensive tool you pick. Even more so if you know from what location.