External Safety vs No Safety

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AF_Mike

AF_Mike

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Hello from North Dakota! New to the forums, although I've looked at the discussions here many times over the last few years.

So I wanted to hear from others about an issue I've been pondering lately. I know that there have been many heated debates about pistols with and without external safeties. One of the main arguments I hear from those that prefer pistols without them is that manual safeties can get you killed in a self defense situation because stress makes it harder to manipulate buttons, levers, etc. I've also seen videos where firearms instructors claimed to have seen people who were very experienced with pistols that have external safeties fail to disengage them during exercises in classes. So it would seem that the most popular accepted stance in the "self defense" world is that pistols without safeties are preferable to those that have them.

And here is where I get confused. AR's and shotguns like the 870 and 500 are extremely popular home defense firearms but they, and most other firearms in their category, have the dreaded external safety. However, I don't hear anyone discounting these firearms as viable self defense tools because of this feature. Now I know pistols are meant to be holstered (protected triggers) and long guns have slings (exposed triggers), but I'm mainly concerned with the stress aspect of self defense.

I think we all can agree that any deadly force encounter, inside or outside of our homes will be stressful. So I would think that despite practicing with both, if someone can't disengage the safety on a 1911 while confronting a would be carjacker, then they would have the same trouble with an AR during a home invasion right?

*For the record I prefer a pistol (S&W .45 Shield) without a safety for CCW for one main reason: it gets cold up here and I don't want to fumble with a safety while wearing thick gloves. However, I'm completely comfortable with my Moss 500 for home defense.

In my eyes there seems to be a disconnect in popular gun culture when it comes to defensive pistols and long guns. Why is a safety potentially deadly in a stressful situation outside of your home but completely acceptable in an equally stressful situation while in your house?

As a caveat, I would like to mention I'm not creating this thread to spark an argument. I'm simply hoping that someone more knowledgeable than me can help me learn something since I am by no means an expert. Anyone have any insight they can share to help me see the light?

Thanks!
 
I will only touch on the safety on an AR. With an AR carried slung, ones thumb should be on the safety prior to coming up to cover the threat. A pistol is often (not always) drawn clear out of the holster in the presence of an unexpected threat. Walking around with the safety indexed on the thumb (AR) makes it more intuitive to disengage it before shooting.

Those are thoughts from my experience, but I am no tactical god.

Solid carry choice with the Shield by the way
 
Welcome to the asylum Mike. Regarding - "...stress makes it harder to manipulate button, levers. etc...." If you believe that then you have to believe that driving in rush hour traffic makes it harder to manipulate turn signals, brakes, etc. Utterly absurd. If you someone cuts in front of you, you don't "think" about where the brake pedal is or how to press it. Either you know what you are doing or you don't. If someone draws a weapon and forgets or fumbles with the safety - that person was poorly trained - or has a functional disability and has no business operating any type of machinery. Period. Videos with "firearms instructors" are frequently filled with nonsensical opinions and misinformation. Youtube should require a basic IQ test before they allow anyone to post a video. There's a lot of James Yeager type guys out there "teaching". Don't fall for their "expert" advice. If any instructor tells you something that doesn't make sense - walk away.
 
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I've seen the driver in the car sitting next to me in traffic nail their gas pedal instead of brake pedal and smash directly into the car in front them. Same with people that put their car in drive when needing to reverse, it usually puts them through a garage door or front of a building. Things happen.

Not that it means one shouldn't have a safety lever on a gun if that person wants it. Just practice, practice, practice with whichever gun type you carry.

Personally, I prefer pocket guns without safety levers. Part of that is because I started on revolvers. Holstered OWB carry, I could go with or without a safety, but the truth is that my larger carry guns don't have safety levers either.
 
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AF_Mike said:
...In my eyes there seems to be a disconnect in popular gun culture when it comes to defensive pistols and long guns. Why is a safety potentially deadly in a stressful situation outside of your home but completely acceptable in an equally stressful situation while in your house?...
Click to expand...
No, there's not a disconnect, and a safety is not potentially deadly.

You'll probably find that those that object to manual safeties came up on Glocks and similar weapons and never learned any other platforms. Those who came of age when all semi-autos and long guns possessed manual safeties are capable of utilizing these weapons in real-life situations -- because they've trained on them. Everyone really needs to stop overthinking this stuff.

Trainers such as Rob Pincus perpetuate all the B.S. when they bash firearms with safeties and de-cockers and try to push Glocks and their own striker-fired pistols. The only consensus in the firearms community these days seems to be that there is no consensus. Yet, many of those with years of experience in both the military and law enforcement are decried as being dinosaurs, and the new-age trainers and instructors are pushing their agenda that guns, especially handguns, should not have manual safeties.
 
I recognized the issue of different types of safeties long ago.

I've conditioned myself to sweep my thumb along the slide on the draw. This pushes down a 1911 safety or pushes up a safety on a PPK or Beretta. This has worked for me for over 40 years.

The finish is worn on my Glocks from doing this repeatedly even though there is,no need to do it. I do it instinctively on the draw.

My shotguns all have tang or 870 style safeties. I have a similar drill using my thumb and index finger when I prepare to fire.

I've used ARs/M16s/M4s for nearly 50 years. Everything with them is pretty much second nature.

You can deal with anything if you give it some thought and practice.
 
Thanks for the replies everyone. You guys are pretty much echoing what I was already thinking, but I figured I would put the question out there in case I was completely off base.

I believe practice is the biggest factor here. I know from experience that if you are unfamiliar with an external safety it can cause issues. For example, shortly after I had bought my first 1911 I was practicing firing & reloading and after one mag change I accidentally re-engaged the safety when trying to get back on target. At that point, I maybe had 200 rounds through the gun. However, now that I've shot it once a month over the course of a year and half I have zero issues with it. Like others have mentioned, I just instinctively rest my thumb on the safety as soon as I put hands on it. Although I haven't had to use it a defensive situation (and I pray I never do!)
 
If one chooses to carry, Make yourself familiar with your firearm. I carry a Colt 1911 cocked and locked, you need to develop muscle memory so you do not have to think about taking the safety off. If you can't devote the time to know your weapon, than you shouldn't be carrying.
 
I think if someone steps on their throttle when intending to step on their brake - that person has a physical/pyschological/neurological problem and should under no circumstances ever be issued a license to operate a motor vehicle. But that's just me. And failing to "find" or to operate a safety - or pressing on the throttle instead of the brake are both absolutely NOT in the category of "things happen". I have seen pilots land an aircraft and "forget" to lower their landing gear. "Things happen" doesn't work in that case either.
 
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A lot of things have become "fact" since Al Gore invented the Internet.

Glocks, for example, are far from the unbreakable, ultra reliable handguns they are made out to be. I learned years ago especially on THR not to criticize them.

"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend." Maxwell Scott
 
It's a valid point - there is a certain amount of "that safety will get you killed" with pistols, yet the same instructor or user picks up an AR or most any long gun and nary a peep about it.

Note carefully how they present the scenario - the perp ambushes the gun carrier, he has an extremely limited time to react, and if he doesn't swipe the safety off the perp shoots him dead on the spot. Now lets do a reality check - what happens nationwide when someone presents a gun to defend themselves? One study of three million presentations had the perp turning tail and running, or at the least it stopped their aggressive behavior. Armed or not. It's an extremely limited situation where two opponents draw down on each other, and it relates more to machismo and High Noon than anything else.

The scenario also involves the gun carrier apparently being totally clueless about the impending confrontation.That can happen - if the perp has in mind to ambush someone which does happen. And in that regard, they usually come from behind to gain the advantage. The good guy is often beat down first before he even is able to react by reaching for a gun. Worst case, he's shot, then once on the ground is shot to slide lock.

I would say that being AWARE of who's around you is far more important than which gun you choose to carry. If they get you unaware then safety or not you gave them the killing advantage. Fail.

As for "it takes another split second to sweep off the safety and pull the trigger," the answer to that when pistols were first adopted by the police was the DA/SA action. A lot of cops carried the same condition we carry a DAO pocket gun today, loaded no safety with the longer DA trigger pull. That IS safe, we accept it and it is still done.

For all the arguments pro or con on safeties, the better answer is "be aware of your surroundings" because if you don't even know you need to draw a weapon, you will be behind the curve pulling one out against one already aiming at your midsection. That is a much bigger and more frequent cause of death.
 
Good points and all very true. It also totally amazes me when I read guys talking about how they carry a different sidearm for their CCW depending on their "mood" or "dress". That is a Very Bad Idea. One gun - one set of operating procedures and as much practice with that one gun as you can achieve. Imagine if every cop got to choose a different weapon from a rack for duty every day of the week.
 
With the wide selection of firearms available in our great country it is easy to match a firearm to the users preferred method of operation.

Gun 'riters among others are very fond of criticizing semi-autos that have a magazine disconnect. The usual argument being is if the user loses the magazine they still have a single shot pistol. The problems with this argument are;

How many times has a documented incident happened when the magazine fell out of the gun without user knowning and then the user having to fire the gun in self-defense? (Other than by soldiers in combat).

(The fact the user now only has one bullet left also means the do-do they are in is very, very deep).

What I have seen is the magazine release button being pushed and the magazine being partially released while the gun is in the holster. This is a result of using a holster that is either improperly designed or using a holster that was not designed for the gun. Since it can happen regardless if the gun has the magazine disconnect or not it is a failure of the holster not the gun or it's design.

It ignores that being able to disable offers significant safety advantages;

For a LEO there have been incidents documented of ejecting the magazine enough to disable the gun saved the officers life.

For the gun owner the magazine disconnect is a excellent safety feature in homes with children. While I taught my children at a young age about gun safety I liked being able to disable the gun by removing the magazine and then engaging the thumb safety for another safety measure. The magazine went to a separate storage location but was accessible to adults.

Now that my adult children having rug rats of their own my revolvers are all going to go into the gun vault when they visit. I have pretty much switched to semi-autos for edc anyway and I will up the safety level with one that has the magazine disconnect.

I know about the empty chamber but isn't it the unloaded gun that causes accidents?

And if I have a c.r.s moment and forget to clear the chamber the gun is still unable to be fired.
 
Tirod said:
It's a valid point - there is a certain amount of "that safety will get you killed" with pistols, yet the same instructor or user picks up an AR or most any long gun and nary a peep about it.

Note carefully how they present the scenario - the perp ambushes the gun carrier, he has an extremely limited time to react, and if he doesn't swipe the safety off the perp shoots him dead on the spot. Now lets do a reality check - what happens nationwide when someone presents a gun to defend themselves? One study of three million presentations had the perp turning tail and running, or at the least it stopped their aggressive behavior. Armed or not. It's an extremely limited situation where two opponents draw down on each other, and it relates more to machismo and High Noon than anything else.

The scenario also involves the gun carrier apparently being totally clueless about the impending confrontation.That can happen - if the perp has in mind to ambush someone which does happen. And in that regard, they usually come from behind to gain the advantage. The good guy is often beat down first before he even is able to react by reaching for a gun. Worst case, he's shot, then once on the ground is shot to slide lock.

I would say that being AWARE of who's around you is far more important than which gun you choose to carry. If they get you unaware then safety or not you gave them the killing advantage. Fail.

As for "it takes another split second to sweep off the safety and pull the trigger," the answer to that when pistols were first adopted by the police was the DA/SA action. A lot of cops carried the same condition we carry a DAO pocket gun today, loaded no safety with the longer DA trigger pull. That IS safe, we accept it and it is still done.

For all the arguments pro or con on safeties, the better answer is "be aware of your surroundings" because if you don't even know you need to draw a weapon, you will be behind the curve pulling one out against one already aiming at your midsection. That is a much bigger and more frequent cause of death.
Click to expand...
Nothing can be added to this!
 
Drail said:
Good points and all very true. It also totally amazes me when I read guys talking about how they carry a different sidearm for their CCW depending on their "mood" or "dress". That is a Very Bad Idea. One gun - one set of operating procedures and as much practice with that one gun as you can achieve. Imagine if every cop got to choose a different weapon from a rack for duty every day of the week.
Click to expand...
Great point. I do alternate occasionally; when my back pain is manageable I carry my compact because I can shoot it so well. When pain prevents, I carry my subcompact.
Same make, same controls on both guns.
 
My take is simple. The odds of needing to actually use a weapon for self defense are much less than the possibility of injury or death due to accidental or negligent discharge. Safety first always. However that needs to be accomplished is up to the shooter in his/her choice of gun and how and if he/she practices its use. For me, a safety is mandatory on a SAO and a DA/SA but somewhat optional on a DAO.
 
I shoot revolvers, DAO, and DA/SA semiautomatics. For first trigger pull I have a heavy trigger. For all but the DA/SA, I have that all the time. For the one that is sinless action after the first round I am likely hot and engaged with a threat. My P226 TACOPS has the SRT that gives me quicker reset for accurate followup shots.

What I don't like are light trigger pulls of SAO with the hammer cocked even with a manual safety for self-defense as they are easy to fire all the time from first shot forward. It is not my personal preference. I want a heavy trigger pull for the first shot for stressful situations so I have some leeway.
 
Drail said:
I think if someone steps on their throttle when intending to step on their brake - that person has a physical/pyschological/neurological problem and should under no circumstances ever be issued a license to operate a motor vehicle. But that's just me. And failing to "find" or to operate a safety - or pressing on the throttle instead of the brake are both absolutely NOT in the category of "things happen". I have seen pilots land an aircraft and "forget" to lower their landing gear. "Things happen" doesn't work in that case either.
Click to expand...

Excuse me for not writing, "Operator Error Happens".
 
Hokkmike said:
My take is simple. The odds of needing to actually use a weapon for self defense are much less than the possibility of injury or death due to accidental or negligent discharge. Safety first always. However that needs to be accomplished is up to the shooter in his/her choice of gun and how and if he/she practices its use. For me, a safety is mandatory on a SAO and a DA/SA but somewhat optional on a DAO.
Click to expand...

Hang on. For DA/SA?

I am not understanding the thinking here.
The reason for DA/SA is so you don't have to have a safety but are still as safe as any DA revolver.
If you use a safety on a DA/SA, then, IMO, just get a SAO.

I agree with most of the posts ITT. Safeties don't necessarily equal more risky.
Training and practice is key.
If you get the warm and fuzzies from a SA with a safety, then practice that safety operation every time you shoot it.
*sights on target, safety, press trigger*

Personally I get the warm and fuzzies from a DA/SA design with NO safety. I like things simple.
I always shot revolvers and the DA/SA is a natural progression from a revolver.

I practice with the de-cocker and thumb on the hammer while re holstering every time I shoot it.
 
I think it is harder accidentally to engage the safety of an AR or a shotgun while firing than it is to engage a frame-mounted safety on a pistol accidentally. The high thumb hold is said to be the answer to that, but I never liked the feel of that hold. This is one of the reasons I am not a big fan of most frame-mounted safeties.
 
chardin said:
I think it is harder accidentally to engage the safety of an AR or a shotgun while firing than it is to engage a frame-mounted safety on a pistol accidentally. The high thumb hold is said to be the answer to that, but I never liked the feel of that hold. This is one of the reasons I am not a big fan of most frame-mounted safeties.
Click to expand...
And I am left handed so I have to find lefty friendly safety designs to use them.
 
chardin said:
I think it is harder accidentally to engage the safety of an AR or a shotgun while firing than it is to engage a frame-mounted safety on a pistol accidentally. The high thumb hold is said to be the answer to that, but I never liked the feel of that hold. This is one of the reasons I am not a big fan of most frame-mounted safeties.
Click to expand...

I get what you're saying. I personally do like the high thumb hold because I feel it helps manage recoil. But like you mentioned, I can't ever remember unintentionally engaging the safety on an AR. On the other hand, as I mentioned in a previous post, I have done so with a 1911 before. Probably due to lack of experience, but it still happened.

However, I'm still skeptical that disengaging the safety on a pistol to get it into the fight in the first place is any more difficult than doing the same on a long gun. Providing one practices enough with the weapon of course.
 
AF_Mike said:
I get what you're saying. I personally do like the high thumb hold because I feel it helps manage recoil. But like you mentioned, I can't ever remember unintentionally engaging the safety on an AR. On the other hand, as I mentioned in a previous post, I have done so with a 1911 before. Probably due to lack of experience, but it still happened.
Click to expand...
I don't find that the high thumb hold helps manage recoil. I find it strains my hand and doesn't allow me to form a solid ball with both hands.

AF_Mike said:
However, I'm still skeptical that disengaging the safety on a pistol to get it into the fight in the first place is any more difficult than doing the same on a long gun. Providing one practices enough with the weapon of course.
Click to expand...
It depends on the safety in each case. That said, "difficult" and "error-prone" are not synonyms, and I think the comparison most people are making is in the apples-to-apples case of a pistol with an external safety to one without.

A pistol is a reactive weapon more than a long gun is. If I know I'm getting into a fight right then, I'm bringing a long gun, and a friend with a long gun, and a bunch of friends with long guns. A pistol is on my hip in case a fight starts that I wasn't planning on having.

Reactive weapons will almost always be used in a hurry, long guns only some of the time. Those are their respective tactical niches.

Sometimes long guns are used in a hurry, but when they are, I wonder how one might design one so that it can be carried safely without an external safety. Someone has probably solved this, and there are probably lots of opinions about that solution. (The Nylon 66 does not count as a good solution.)

Therefore, I think I care a bit more about how error-prone it is to bring a defensive pistol to bear with a minimum of steps than how to do the same with a long gun.
 
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