Black Powder vs Pyrodex vs Triple 777 - Least corrosive?

I'm not even denying that point, nor am I changing the subject. You're deflecting. In fact, my questions relate DIRECTLY to that point. If the chemical is the same, then why is the corrosion not consistent everywhere? Further, if the powders are all the same, then why does Pyrodex have such a terrible reputation? Why does blackpowder rust quicker than 777? Why can you shoot more with 777 than with blackpowder?

You asserted that potassium perchlorate, the corrosive chemical salt from percussion caps and Triple 7 combustion, is a more powerful corrosive than potassium nitride, the corrosive salt residue from black powder, for example.

1. Why do you believe that is so?
2. What is the basis for your belief?
3. Do you have any support for your claim that potassium perchlorate is a more poweful corrosive than potassium nitride?
4. Can you cite/ provide links to such support material ?

Still deflecting, I'm done.

CraigC said:

Still deflecting, I'm done.

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You’re done because you’ve embarrassed yourself. You made a claim that you didn’t understand. When you were finally forced to admit it, you tried to make another baseless claim.

It’s only complicated if you prevaricate. You claim that potassium perchlorate, the chemical residue of Triple 7, is more corrosive than the residue from Black Powder. Why won’t you explain why you believe that to be true?

There's a process that greatly reduces if not eliminate most of the potential for corrosion created by some powder residues.
It's called nitride which is like the finish on Glock pistols.

CVA's have a nitride barrel bore lifetime guarantee which states:
"Nitride treated barrels are guaranteed for life against rust pitting.
If your barrel ever develops permanent bore damage due to corrosion, it will be replaced at no charge" --->>> https://cva.com/guarantee/





I read a post by someone who said that they don't clean their nitride barrel after shooting BH 209 and they don't ever worry about rust.
I'm not sure what brand of gun it is, but it typifies the experience that some people have had with nitride barrels.
And I learned that Uberti made a Remington 1858 named the Black Rock that had a nitride finish, which can be added to any gun by an after marketer. --->>> https://taylorsfirearms.com/hand-gu...ton-collection/1858-remington-black-rock.html
More can be read about nitriding in this thread. --->>> https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...rs-ever-have-a-factory-nitride-finish.870294/

This doesn't mean that nitride will protect against everything, but it can greatly help to minimize the potential for damage.
Moisture is a potential problem to be aware of when cleaning powders that contain potassium perchlorate which led me to clean Pyrodex using solvents instead of water.
It does require a lot of extra work but is the reason why I use American Pioneer Powder with revolvers.
APP doesn't contain charcoal or sulfur and the residue isn't as stubborn to remove as Pyrodex.

At my local shop, I went cap hunting, as I do when my stock dips below 500. The guy at the counter got me some CCI #11’s. When I asked about powder, he produced Pyrodex. I said I won’t shoot that, I’d rather go home empty handed. He sheepishly pulled up the last bottle of Triple 7 he’d been hiding behind the counter and explained he couldn’t get anyone but newbies to buy Pyrodex.

DocRock said:

You’re done because you’ve embarrassed yourself. You made a claim that you didn’t understand. When you were finally forced to admit it, you tried to make another baseless claim.

It’s only complicated if you prevaricate. You claim that potassium perchlorate, the chemical residue of Triple 7, is more corrosive than the residue from Black Powder. Why won’t you explain why you believe that to be true?

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I'm done because you will not answer a basic question. No, that's not what I claimed. I claimed that 777 is less corrosive than blackpowder and less corrosive than the residue from percussion caps. You say the chemicals present are all corrosive. I agree. I asked you "in what quantity and does it matter?". I also asked "to what degree and what role do the other components play?". You are either unwilling or incapable of answering these questions. So either the quantity of these chemicals produced is the same or it isn't. That either affects the level or rapidity of corrosion, or it doesn't.

I also asked for you to explain why corrosion happens more rapidly and to a greater extent where percussion cap fouling is present, why Pyrodex has such a terrible reputation, or why corrosion happens more quickly with blackpowder than with 777.

No, you just want us all to swallow the same pill you did and without question, then act like a horse's ass when we do not.

Well I hit the ignore button for the first time ever on The High Road, congratulations Doc.

My nephew gave me his muzzleloader right before deer season came in for me to sight it in. . I sighted it in and clean it up real good before I gave it back to him . Well he missed a nice buck at 75 yards with it . I told him to check the sight in . So he shot it a few more times and said it wasn’t the scope . He gave it back to me to clean it again after a couple of months . He was using T7 . I am not blaming the powder after that long , but it had done damage to the bore this time at the breech . The primer did not do any damage .

I have a hard time loading more than one round after shooting T7 because of the crud ring it makes , even using T7 primers .

CraigC said:

I'm done because you will not answer a basic question. No, that's not what I claimed. I claimed that 777 is less corrosive than blackpowder and less corrosive than the residue from percussion caps. You say the chemicals present are all corrosive. I agree. I asked you "in what quantity and does it matter?". I also asked "to what degree and what role do the other components play?". You are either unwilling or incapable of answering these questions. So either the quantity of these chemicals produced is the same or it isn't. That either affects the level or rapidity of corrosion, or it doesn't.

I also asked for you to explain why corrosion happens more rapidly and to a greater extent where percussion cap fouling is present, why Pyrodex has such a terrible reputation, or why corrosion happens more quickly with blackpowder than with 777.

No, you just want us all to swallow the same pill you did and without question, then act like a horse's ass when we do not.

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You claimed that potassium perchlorate (the residue from percussion caps) is more corrosive than the residues from black powder and substitutes. Potassium perchlorate is the corrosive salt left by Triple 7. So, when you claim Triple 7 is “less corrosive” but the corrosive salt in Triple 7 is the same as the percussion caps that you claim are “more corrosive”, you continue to contradict yourself.

The residue of all black powder and all substitutes is hygroscopic and corrosive. That’s a fact.

You claim that the same corrosive salt from Triple 7 is “more corrosive” when it comes from percussion caps and “less corrosive” when it is left by Triple 7. How do you explain that?

Circles.

Driftwood Johnson said:

Also, I never use the word 'neutralize' when referring to cleaning Black Powder fouling.

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i'll continue to use the word neutralize. My gun cleaning method uses about two ounces of water. None of my guns have ever rusted.

CraigC said:

Circles.

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Perhaps. But if your making. How is potassium perchlorate “more corrosive” when the residue of caps but “less corrosive” when it is the residue of Triple 7. It is a very clear question.

It’s astounding to me how many so-called “educated, well-read, and experienced shooters” dismiss the experiences of first-hand testimonies off-hand, without being personally involved in the firing of the weapons, powder, primers, and bullets in discussion. These folks quote the “science” all day long on the chemical composition of various powders and their advantages and disadvantages. Fine; I’ll listen to the experience of ACTUAL OLD SCHOOL SHOOTERS. These crusty old men have forgotten more than “science” has discovered

I didn't read all the responses.

You need to understand the BP substitutes were brought about when they were talking about designating black powder as an explosive. That would have required mom and pop gunshops to have cost prohibitive magazines for BP.

I always prefer BP although I have used Pyrodex.

DocRock said:

Perhaps. But if your making. How is potassium perchlorate “more corrosive” when the residue of caps but “less corrosive” when it is the residue of Triple 7. It is a very clear question.

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IDK if caps are actually more corrosive or not, but if they somehow produce a tiny amount of water vapor, then the moisture may collect around the immediate cap area and cause corrosion that wouldn't extend further up the bore.
From what I've heard, moisture and humidity can cause corrosion when it comes into contact with some residues.
And in the absence of a certain level of moisture the chemical is benign and doesn't affect the metal.
Who knows whether condensation occurs in only one part of the bore or not as a result of firing?

Another thought is if there's an extra amount of Potassium perchlorate deposited in the breech because of the proximity of the ignition, then perhaps that's why there's more corrosion.

Maybe the bore is getting wiped above the projectile when it gets fired off.
Even if we can't explain everything definitively, we can still acknowledge the possibilities.

arcticap said:

Another thought is if there's an extra amount of Potassium chlorate deposited in the breech because of the proximity of the primers, then perhaps that's why there's more corrosion.

Maybe the bore is getting wiped above the projectile when it gets fired off.
Even if we can't explain everything definitively, we can still acknowledge the possibilities.

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We can certainly speculate ad nauseum, endlessly offering unsupported guesses or recounting anecdotes and individual observations plagued by undocumented variables.

We can also recognize that all black powders, all substitutes, and caps deposit corrosive salts in the firearms in which they are used. We can also acknowledge that the use of soapy hot water to timely clean such firearms eliminates the risks of corrosion.

I wonder which approach is more productive?

The OP inquired about different degrees of corrosion observed from using the different powders.
Some folks feel that they have an opinion that was asked for.
How do you explain nitride preventing corrosion despite the same chemicals being present.
It can certainly delay it for many years under optimal conditions.
Why else would CVA provide a lifetime warranty.
All steel is not the same, the powder formulas are not the same, conditions are not the same, which at least implies that there can be different rates or degrees of corrosion as a result.
There's room for honest discussion based on observations which also includes your facts.

DocRock said:

We can certainly speculate ad nauseum, endlessly offering unsupported guesses or recounting anecdotes and individual observations plagued by undocumented variables.

We can also recognize that all black powders, all substitutes, and caps deposit corrosive salts in the firearms in which they are used. We can also acknowledge that the use of soapy hot water to timely clean such firearms eliminates the risks of corrosion.

I wonder which approach is more productive?

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Seems I provided an example that you were extremely quick to dismiss. Seems you refuse to accept anything but what you think despite any evidence. And yes, he did state it was a garage experiment, it still shouldn’t be so readily dismissed as BS. His test was conducted under the exact same circumstances and therefor is relevant, albeit in his situation. There’s a fellow on a few forums who uses nothing but Pyrodex and finds, despite being in a more humid area than I am, doesn’t find what I did after leaving my muzzleloader overnight. What makes me wonder then is if the lube is what makes the difference.

arcticap said:

The OP inquired about different degrees of corrosion observed from using the different powders.
Some folks feel that they have an opinion that was asked for.
How do you explain nitride preventing corrosion despite the same chemicals being present.
It can certainly delay it for many years under optimal conditions.
Why else would CVA provide a lifetime warranty.
All steel is not the same, the powder formulas are not the same, conditions are not the same, which at least implies that there can be different rates or degrees of corrosion as a result.
There's room for honest discussion based on observations which also includes your facts.

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Happily, you don’t have to rely on me or anyone else speculating, discussing, or explaining how a nitride finish inhibits steel corrosion. We need no meandering observations about uncle Bob’s cousin’s friend’s nephew who might have left a rifle dirty for a week or maybe a month and it might have rained but maybe not...

It has been studied. There are verifiable facts that explain how nitriding inhibits corrosion in steel.

https://www.corrosionpedia.com/2/15...ing-for-corrosion-and-wear-fatigue-resistance

arcticap said:

There's room for honest discussion based on observations which also includes your facts.

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At least there should be. If the scientific data were complete, it would explain these inconsistencies, not dismiss them. As it stands, the anecdotal data that is being dismissed as heresy is more useful than the "scientific data".

CraigC said:

At least there should be. If the scientific data were complete, it would explain these inconsistencies, not dismiss them. As it stands, the anecdotal data that is being dismissed as heresy is more useful than the "scientific data".

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Still at it

You made yourself look silly over not knowing that the corrosive salt in both caps and Triple 7 were the same and not having read the
material you were criticizing that told you that fact, then, being unwilling to admit that. And yet you keep digging the hole.

Again, all your musings and navel gazings don’t change the fact that 1) all black powder, its substitutes, and caps leave corrosive salts in the firearms they are used in, and 2) corrosion form those salts can be effectively removed and corrosion avoided by washing the firearm with hot soapy water in a timely manner. Those are things we know to be true in all cases at all times.

Your observations about how one time, at band camp, you left your revolver for three days after shooting x and you say it didn’t rust while your friend’s cousin’s sister’s husband shot y in his in July in Florida and it rusted more quickly, may be fascinating to you and possibly three other people, but these meanderings offer nothing but incomplete snapshots of unique events with untold unaccounted for variables. And given your demonstrated unwillingness to admit when you’ve gotten something wrong, the value of your “discussion” is also in question.

DocRock said:

Still at it

You made yourself look silly over not knowing that the corrosive salt in both caps and Triple 7 were the same and not having read the
material you were criticizing that told you that fact, then, being unwilling to admit that. And yet you keep digging the hole.

Again, all your musings and navel gazings don’t change the fact that 1) all black powder, its substitutes, and caps leave corrosive salts in the firearms they are used in, and 2) corrosion form those salts can be effectively removed and corrosion avoided by washing the firearm with hot soapy water in a timely manner. Those are things we know to be true in all cases at all times.

Your observations about how one time, at band camp, you left your revolver for three days after shooting x and you say it didn’t rust while your friend’s cousin’s sister’s husband shot y in his in July in Florida and it rusted more quickly, may be fascinating to you and possibly three other people, but these meanderings offer nothing but incomplete snapshots of unique events with untold unaccounted for variables. And given your demonstrated unwillingness to admit when you’ve gotten something wrong, the value of your “discussion” is also in question.

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My guess is that you are a politician, no? You are eloquent and have a good vocabulary and you promote “trusting the science”, lol! Seriously, some of us value life experience more than book knowledge. To each his own

MatrixReality said:

My guess is that you are a politician, no?

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No. And generally The High Road discourages personal insults