Rebirth of the 32 ACP?

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Kleanbore said:

And the civilian may not need to worry about barrier the penetration of handgun bullets.

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"may" is the operative word. There are 3.5 carjackings a day in Chicago (on average). Those carjackings don't occur just in certain "bad" areas or at certain times. The carjackings occur all over Chicago including downtown Chicago all from early morning to late evening. I can see having to shoot through car glass or a car door in that scenario.

I don't know how many people keep a separate gun in their car within reach. I do. Getting a pocket pistol out of your pocket from a sitting position is very difficult. I have a 4.5" barreled SAR B6P attached to the center console.

I wouldn't rely on a .32 ACP to shoot through auto glass and a car door

Kleanbore said:

I don't buy it.

First, on the Lehigh/Underwood bullets. Haven't we discussed this enough to understand quite clearly that it is a marketing gimmick that looks impressive in gel but that has no advantage in wounding.

Second, regarding Claude's video. The LEO may not lawfully use his firearm to enforce compliance--only to defend himself when other means of enforcing compliance fail. The civilian defends himself, too. The difference is that the civilian may choose to retreat and will not pursue.

That in no way logically supports a conclusion that the civilian's gun need not punch the same size holes in an attacker as would an officer's weapon.

Claude is a great guy, but heaven knows what gave him that idea.

Now, if a perp flees an officer will follow, and extra magazines would be a good idea.

And the civilian may not need to worry about barrier the penetration of handgun bullets.

.I don't.

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Everything you're saying seems to support the idea that civilians don't need to use the same calibers that police do. What are the chances I have to shoot thru barriers? Slim to none, but police it's much higher. An officer has a duty to make an arrest and use lethal force with retreat basically not allowed and are covered with immunity while civilians are encouraged to flee if possible and don't have the same legal protections as police do.

At the end of the day if your gun stops an attacker what difference does the caliber make? Shoot what you shoot best and for many who are finally seeing .32 as more than an antiquated caliber are deciding it's adequate for their needs.

C0untZer0 said:

The gun industry has a certain strange inertia to it. Cartridges can be made with better terminal ballistics than what John Browning ever created but they seldom get off the ground. The .327 Federal Magnum is about as close to a success story as there is, a least that I'm aware of. There were a lot of good things about 357 SIG but I don't think even SIG SAUER is making guns chambered in 357 SIG anymore.

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It's very subjective, I agree, but so long as their are good options available for guns and ammo people will buy them. It's easy for a rimmed revolver caliber like .327 to be accepted because you have the option of shooting the shorter stuff like .32 S&W/Long and .32 Mag, but very different for a semi auto caliber. The two that broke out were .40 and 10mm and that was because of the widespread use of the .40 with LE in the 90s and 00s and 10mm only in the past few years started getting hot again.

Bottom line is there needs to be a perceived need. .357 Sig has a lot going for it, but why does anyone need it, what's it doing that 9/40/45 aren't doing? The .380 mated to the micro pistols that were all smaller than 9mm suddenly found a use that people needed it for, which is ease of carry for certain situations.

Fact is full size pistols aren't what drive sales and .357 Sig, 5.7 are full size pistol calibers, not pocket guns or small carry guns. It's the pocket gun calibers like .32 that I'm surprised aren't getting made and the reasons for companies not making a .32 ACP version of their .380's makes no sense and they can try to make the argument that people aren't buying the Seecamp, NAA Guardian, or Beretta 3032 because they're .32's, but that's not the real reason. The real reason is those pistols are overpriced garbage.

I got to page 4, but count me among the fans of 32 acp.

I currently own none. I had an interarms stainless ppk in 32 that I sold.

The ppk in 32 is a thing of beauty. 100% reliable and night and day for recoil /accuracy.

I practice shooting and moving, running, prone, one hand/ weak hand etc.

The 32 ppk was far away the best in my hands for point shooting on the move.

I mainly came to say if Walther in Arkansas would chamber new ppk/s in 32 acp I think that alone could bring a lot of life back into a great low recoil decently powerful little cartridge. The flat points will do the job, if you're up to it.

They'll do it just as fast as any other little bit of metal going through an artery or eye socket or lungs etc.

Like a brick through a plate glass window has been good enough for me for 2 decades. The best thing about the .32 is it's also fun to shoot.

dodo bird said:

I know it’s not a pocket pistol. I have never shot one of these but IMO this is the 32acp I wish I could afford. Looks like a lot of fun.

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I can attest that the VZ-61 is a lot of fun. I have a threaded barrel semi auto SBR’d with top-folding stock and it is very fun. The recoil impulse is very odd (not bad, just odd) because it’s such a soft round being fired from a fairly heavy gun. You can feel the bolt moving and you hardly come off target.

CoalTrain49 said:

I guess I would have to ask what can 32 ACP do that 380 ACP can't? Are they more concealable? Is there more magazine capacity? Is there a larger selection of SD bullets that meet FBI standard 12" penetration? I'm not seeing the 32 ACP as having any advantages here. 380 ACP is about as small as I wish to go for SD. I have a 32 revolver so I'm not a total caliber snob.

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In terms of ballistic performance, the .380 is more potent. However, a .32 allows for a theoretically smaller gun (although in practice, most are the same size as their .380 counterparts). The most substantial difference is shootability. The .32 barely recoils and seems to be extremely accurate. I find this to be the result of minimal recoil and the fixed barrel design that most .32s have.

Penetration of barriers can be good or bad.

Know your bullet.

The only auto pistol i carry on a belt with any regularity is a Beretta M81FS. S&B FMJ.

Shivahasagun said:

Penetration of barriers can be good or bad.

Know your bullet.

The only auto pistol i carry on a belt with any regularity is a Beretta M81FS. S&B FMJ.

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Lucky Gunner's gel tests of hollow points showed that Fiocchi with XTP's out of the Beretta 81 expanded to over .4" and went 12 to 14 inches deep with all 5 rounds. If I could find that ammo I'd use it. Another .32 ACP hollow point that has interested me is the PPU 71gr. That's pretty heavy for a .32 ACP JHP and normally I'd think it can't expand, but the cavity is huge, I can't imagine it wouldn't expand.

Issue is not all pistols will feed that ammo, the bullet profile is not standard.

Kleanbore said:

First, on the Lehigh/Underwood bullets. Haven't we discussed this enough to understand quite clearly that it is a marketing gimmick that looks impressive in gel but that has no advantage in wounding.

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Trying to find what's been discussed on the forum about Lehigh Xtreme Cavitator in .32 has been difficult for me. Is the argument against Lehigh bullets that the "vapor pressure spike and cavitation" is something that only happens in ballistics gel and doesn't happen to human tissue?

Even if that argument is true, I'm pretty sure the data shows that they penetrate 13" to 14" deep through 4 layers of denim. Based on the testing I've seen that puts them in 2nd place to the Fiocchi 73 gr FMJ in the penetration category out of a 3" barrel. So even if the cavitation-permanent-wound-cavity is a phenomenon that happens only in gel, the Lehigh Xtreme Cavitator is creating a .3125 diameter channel 13" to 14" deep.

I think it boils down to two things:

1) Whether people believe that the claimed cavitation does increase wounding over FMJ.
2) Whether people believe that .3125 diameter channels 13" to 17" deep is adequate to stop an assailant.

If the Lehigh Defense 32 Auto 50gr Xtreme Cavitator is sparking a rebirth of .32 ACP, it could be a case of perception shaping reality.

It seems that some people have been led to believe the former, but that does not make it true.

That's where marketing comes in. If GM could sell Corvair's, LU should be able to sell some ammo.

Kleanbore said:

It seems that some people have been led to believe the former, but that does not make it true.

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If enough people believe it and start buying .32 ACP pistols, it is possible that some manufacturers might chamber more pistols for the caliber. Although the history of it is that pistol makers , like Bersa and others, have made limited production runs of .32 ACP and then stopped. I have to think that the production run wasn't profitable, or profitable enough. That could change though if people believed it was a viable self defense round and began buying pistols chambered in .32 ACP.

I see a bunch of people talking about a 22lr or WRM for a defensive handgun for one reason or another. Can't say I agree with them but I will say that for the people looking at a rimfire for defensive use at least a 32ACP will have the reduced recoil they are looking for while being a center-fire.

I'm a .32 addict and with all the great old .32 pistols already on the market a new polymer gun would be off my radar. A FN 1910 in .32 is on top of my wish list for now.

Jimbo80 said:

I'm a .32 addict and with all the great old .32 pistols already on the market a new polymer gun would be off my radar. A FN 1910 in .32 is on top of my wish list for now.

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Once you get one of those, you need to look for the near-clone of it made by DWM. The only thing DWM did was improve the grip shape. I don't own a 1910, but I have heard people say that it's grip shape is not excellent, and a Colt 1903, for instance, is better.

You have a lifetime of interesting collecting ahead if you like 32 automatics. What 9mm Para is today, 32 ACP was in 1920 or so: one of the most popular centerfire pistol cartridges in the world. I think every country that could make pistols at all made some 32s.

Every gun aficionado should own a Colt 1903.