Just what the masses were crying out for- a .380 carbine!

hatt said:

Why would .32 or .380 be a better alternative than 9mm? Once fired 9mm cases are just about free. Everything else will be a similar cost.

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Weight and size of ammo restricts round count carried on the person. For hunting it's not a big deal, for use as an emergency tool to live on should the need arise it is. No I'm not talking end of the world scenario here, but maybe flat tire or busted radiator in BFE 4 days walk from civilization, or a bear spooked horse while in deep for elk. (That runs off with your elk rifle). These situation would call basically for a 10/22 takedown or similar gun, but some people will not rely on rimfire, so a small caliber pcc would be just the ticket I'm a lightweight, compact package. I know that's not THIS gun, but it could easily be marketed as such. Just wait for videos of hunters taking rabbits, coons, etc with these and watch them take off, not to mention the tactical crowd swapping from carbine to auto burning ammo and money faster than they earn it.

I always thought a Russian Bizon in 9x18mm Makarov would be a fun gun to have. Import and NFA laws always kept it from being a reality.

Advantages of the Bizon include:

1. Cheap ammo (at the time the notion started).

2. Automatic switch.

The current .380 carbine concept has neither of these advantages, and none other I can think of, besides conforming to certain laws in other countries.

And, lest you think I find pistol caliber carbines useless, I have an AR in 9x19mm. It is a favorite of my daughter, a great training gun, and useful, in a pinch, for defence.

If they called it the "Highpoint Kickpuncher Carbine" I'd probably buy one just support the marketing insanity involved.

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That would be awesome. I don't have anything in .380, but I'd probably buy one too. If for nothing more than to get my Community obsessed kids out to the range more often.

bikerdoc said:

I asked my distributor just now why, He said it is for foreign markets where people cant own military calibers. Mexico will be a top market.

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Makes sense, also I'm surprised no one has noted that the commonality of dimensions to the 9mm means that the carbine probably required only a few small changes. Development costs, and therefore monetary risk were likely minimal.

I think it's pretty cool. Less recoil and more controllability for faster follow up shots. As powerful as a 9mm Para pistol. Very cool.

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My Kel Tec pushes a +P to 410 ft lbs. I doubt a .380 could get that from a rifle, would require doubling energy. The fast powder it's loaded with means it won't do what a .357 will do out of a rifle tube. You might get mild increases, but I don't they'd reach anything a 9 can do out of a pistol. Buy one and let's see. Not with MY money, though, LOL.

And, a 9 doesn't kick much out of a pistol, how could a 9 be so terrible out of a carbine? My GOD, I have a 7mm magnum, a 10 gauge H&R, several 12s I hunt with. 9mm reooil? REALLY? Maybe an advantage in controlling full auto fire. Seem to remember a Cobray M11 type gun in .380 some time back.

WestKentucky said:

Weight and size of ammo restricts round count carried on the person. For hunting it's not a big deal, for use as an emergency tool to live on should the need arise it is. No I'm not talking end of the world scenario here, but maybe flat tire or busted radiator in BFE 4 days walk from civilization, or a bear spooked horse while in deep for elk. (That runs off with your elk rifle). These situation would call basically for a 10/22 takedown or similar gun, but some people will not rely on rimfire, so a small caliber pcc would be just the ticket I'm a lightweight, compact package. I know that's not THIS gun, but it could easily be marketed as such. Just wait for videos of hunters taking rabbits, coons, etc with these and watch them take off, not to mention the tactical crowd swapping from carbine to auto burning ammo and money faster than they earn it.

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I've never heard of anyone who wouldn't trust a rimfire but would trust the lowest powered auto pistol cartridges in a survival situation. Also, .380 ammo would save no practical space or weight over the 9mm. I can't think of anything I'd rely on the .32 ACP doing. But speaking of .32s. A .32 H&R Single Six with decent length barrel sounds like something well suited to your survival scenario. Although the same in .22 mag would probably be just as good or better choice.

boricua9mm said:

For the .380s cost of 32 cents/round (give or take), I'd much rather be shooting 5.56 or 7.62x39.

*Shrugs*

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It cost very little to reload

HankB said:

Here's a reason: If you don't handload, there might be more .380 ammo that remains subsonic out of a carbine than 9mm P ammo.



This could mean something if you intend to attach a suppressor.



(I said it's a reason . . . I didn't say it's a good reason. )

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That's what I'm thinking. I'm sure bolt mass is lower on the 380 carbine than the +p+ rated 9mm so I'm sure it will run better on the lighter lower powered end of the load spectrum

Heck if you cast you can load sub 100g 380 for cheaper than buying 22lr

I like the Hipoint carbines but this one leaves me scratching my head. I would like to see them produce carbines in .357 Sig, 400 CorBon, and 10mm.

It cost very little to reload

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Only if you already have a good stash of brass. The 9mm para is also cheap to reload, and as another user mentioned, brass can be found at just about any shooting range.

The ONLY argument that makes any sense is the caliber restrictions in other companies, but this brings up questions about Hi Point's export market. Are they currently exporting pistols and looking to have this as another offering, or is this supposed to be driving their export plans.

Some people

will buy anything that is "new" on the market when it comes to calibers. Most of these calibers will fade away in time and we will be left with your average old stuff that was proven satisfactory years ago. The short magnums are a good example. A couple of the longest-lived calibers like the .30-06 and .375 H&H are very good examples of calibers that were and are still very modern and sell thousands of examples every year though they came out in the early 1900's. Sometimes newer isn't all that better.

I could be wrong (so very often am) but I don't imagine it took an awful lot of retooling to produce a .380 carbine when they already produce a 9mm carbine.

If that's the case, why not churn a few out and see how they do?

boricua9mm said:

Only if you already have a good stash of brass. The 9mm para is also cheap to reload, and as another user mentioned, brass can be found at just about any shooting range.

The ONLY argument that makes any sense is the caliber restrictions in other companies, but this brings up questions about Hi Point's export market. Are they currently exporting pistols and looking to have this as another offering, or is this supposed to be driving their export plans.

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I haven't bought any in a year, but unless things have changed 380 brass is cheap and easy to find. Lead cast bullets are cheap and easy to find. It uses almost no powder.

380 is easy to load and very, very cheap. I love larger 380 guns like the Beretta 84, Makarov, CZ 83, Sig 232 because they are a fun, affordable plinkers

You can laugh or scratch your head or whatever.
I'll bet they sell all they can make.

I have one .40 and two 9mm HP carbines, I'd probably like to have one in .380 too. But my broke azz ain't gonna rush out and buy one, I still don't have one of the .45 carbines yet! Can't say I'm a big fan of their new "tacticool" stocks either, I like the early style stocks better, which is what my three uglies are. But they sure do shoot good.....

Originally posted by: Garrobo
Some people will buy anything that is "new" on the market when it comes to calibers. Most of these calibers will fade away in time and we will be left with your average old stuff that was proven satisfactory years ago. The short magnums are a good example. A couple of the longest-lived calibers like the .30-06 and .375 H&H are very good examples of calibers that were and are still very modern and sell thousands of examples every year though they came out in the early 1900's. Sometimes newer isn't all that better.

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Colt came out with the .380 in 1908, a couple of years after the '06, but before Holland & Holland's .375.
At 107 years old, it's been around longer than the .45 ACP, which very few people would class as "new".

I asked my distributor just now why, He said it is for foreign markets where people cant own military calibers. Mexico will be a top market.

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Ditto. Especially in Mexico. Maybe the BATFE will run a special Government program for Mexican citizens.

What is lost on discussion forums is how popular the .380 is with folks that are less interested than we are in firearms and want a smaller controllable handgun cartridge with reasonable knockdown power. I recall reading a interview with a ammunition executive after the 2008 panic in which he said the .380 was the handgun round in most demand during the panic.

If anything there is more demand for .380 ammo than ever. There seems to be a model for every size of hand and concealment need.

I always thought a Russian Bizon in 9x18mm Makarov would be a fun gun to have. Import and NFA laws always kept it from being a reality.

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I'll confess to being interested in it in 9 x 18 also. Barnaul Silver Bear is very affordable 9 x 18 with FMJ and JHP about the same price. Low recoil and light weight will make for a lot of fun shooting.

"If you build it, they will come"

If it goes bang it will sell. If you need proof look up "thunder mug" what other reason is there than the almighty dollar these days?

It is a wonder HiPoint has never offered a 9x18 Mak pistol or carbine in my mind. Oh sure they would have to make a whole new barrel, but there must be a market for them.....before Russia got black listed.

-kBob

I not sure I agree with the idea that this weapon is intended mainly for the export market.

The 9x21 mm would be a more sensible choice if that were the case.

The 9x21 is pretty much identical to the 9mm Parabellum as far as performance goes.
It's simply the 9x19 case lengthened by 2 millimeters and with bullets seated 2mm deeper in the case to give the same overall cartridge length.

Pressures, velocities and even load data are virtual twins to the 9x19.

It would be a much simpler conversion than .380. The only difference between the 9x19 and the 9x21 versions would be slight change in chamber dimensions, they wouldn't have to worry about new springs, different magazine & extractor, a lighter bolt or anything else.

The 9x21 was designed by IMI specifically for use in countries that, for whatever reason, prohibit the use of 9x19 weapons and ammunition.
Unlike the .380, its never been used by any military, making it legal in countries that ban anything that's ever been military issue.

Despite claims made earlier in the thread that the only change needed to convert a 9x19 carbine to a .380 ACP would be a 1 mm shorter chamber and lighter spring, you can see from the specs below that it'd be a bit more involved than that.

All data is to CIP specifications because I couldn't locate any SAAMI data on the 9x21.

.380 ACP
Neck diameter - .373"
Base diameter - .374"
Rim diameter - .374"
Rim thickness - .045"
Case length - .680"
Overall length - .984"
Max CIP psi - 21,500

9mm Parabellum
Neck diameter - .380"
Base diameter - .391"
Rim diameter - .392"
Rim thickness - .050"
Case length - .754"
Overall length - 1.169"
Max CIP psi - 34,084

9x21
Neck diameter - .379"
Base diameter - .391"
Rim diameter - .392"
Rim thickness - .050"
Case length - .833"
Overall length - 1.171"
Max CIP psi - 34,084

Given the above factors, my personal belief is that the .380 High Point carbine is probably meant more for domestic consumption than export.

Exactly who makes up the intended market and what the buyers are likely to use them for after purchase is beyond my ability to fathom.

Assuming I'm wrong and the weapon IS intended primarily for export, given how restrictive their gun laws are these days, I don't see Mexico as being a particularly large or lucrative market.

I'd like a carbine in 7.62x25. It is hot out of a Tokarev and would sizzle out of a carbine.

bikerdoc said:

I asked my distributor just now why, He said it is for foreign markets where people cant own military calibers. Mexico will be a top market.

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That's the first answer I have seen that makes sense. It might be the best choice in countries prohibited from owning military calibers.

380 really makes no sense to me in a carbine. It's still underpowered for big game and overpowered for small game. 9mm offers more power, plus cheaper and more plentiful ammo (and reloading components) while 22 offers an economic and accuracy advantage for small game.

For the folks interested in Hi-Point firearms ~ recent article In American Rifleman

http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2015/5/30/hi-point-firearms-and-the-man-behind-them/

Perhaps Hi Point's next brain child will be a .380ACP bull barrel rifle?! A .380 carbine makes no sense. Same size carbine as 9mm, but with a round that has less power and is more expensive. At least in a pistol, a .380 offers a size and weight savings compared to a 9mm.