10 mm vs 44 Magnum Semi Auto Power

[Huntolive]

In practical terms, how much more powerful is a 44 Magnum Semi Auto such as the Desert Eagle than a 10 mm such as the Glock 20 or XDm 10 mm?

I have both those 10mm and am Seriously considering getting a DE 44, since I already have several 44 Magnum revolvers.
My primary purpose is Hunting and Defense.

So what is Gained by adding the DE?
Accuracy, Range, Lethality, Impact?

 

[MikeInOr]

I love my Desert Eagle L5 with both the .50ae and .44mag barrels. I would choose the 10mm or .44 revolver over my beloved Desert Eagle for hunting or defense. The Desert Eagle is a little picky about ammo and likes to be cleaned really well between each outing... i.e. the least reliable of the three.

For fun at the range... My Desert Eagle easily tops my Dan Wesson 744 or my buddies XDm 10mm. With the rotating bolt the DE is a big shove backwards instead of a sharp hammering blow. A XIX DE is considerably heavier than my L5 and proportionately mellower on recoil.

To answer your question, if a 10mm with full power loads won't kill it you probably shouldn't be shooting at it! My Desert Eagle is very acurate and the newer XIX, L6 and L5 models mount a scope very easily. I don't handgun hunt... but I would imagine a scope would be needed to have much of a chance? I believe the fixed barrel design of the DE is inherently more accurate than the typical locked breach pistol in which the barrel moves as part of the cycling. And with all that mass in a DE barrel there is no barrel whip like what might be found in a long barrel revolver.

To buy a Desert Eagle you have to put practicality aside and just go for it! I have never met a DE owner that didn't thoroughly love their DE (If they properly cleaned and maintained it... recoil springs have to be changed more often than a typical pistol).

 

[roscoe]

Doesn't the Double Eagle have a 'floating magazine' that is prone to misfeed if the handgun is cupped? I see to remember shooting my buddy's .50AE and he warned against holding the grip from below. I wouldn't want that in a self-defense or hunting handgun.

 

[Heir Kommt Die Sonne]

Desert Eagle isn't much of a handgun for "practical" usages because they're picky about ammo. Plus cleaning is a must for them (All guns are a must but DEs require more.)
For a hunting gun that you might have to 'field clean' I'd decline the DE. But if I assume you already reload 44 Mag, you might find a load that's good for DE and get more out of it.
For a Semi-Auto I'd much rather personally get a 10mm. Just more reasonable because the 10mm was designed for it.

However, the 44 Magnum cartridge is one I'd recommend for anyone for hunting, just not in a semi-auto platform. But seeing as you already have several 44 Mags, a DE might be a interesting curio to add to the mix.. Definitely would be interesting seeing that one on a hunt. Plus with the reloading thing already mentioned, might be worth sticking to a 44 Mag and get a Deagle.
The 44 Magnum was designed to take down any big game in North America; enough said to prove it's power.

 

[MikeInOr]

Doesn't the Double Eagle have a 'floating magazine' that is prone to misfeed if the handgun is cupped? I see to remember shooting my buddy's .50AE and he warned against holding the grip from below. I wouldn't want that in a self-defense or hunting handgun.

I have never had that problem but I have never held my DE or any pistol in that fashion.

After about 3000-4000 rounds the slide on my DE started failing to return to battery all the way. I would have to push the slide the rest of the way forwards with my thumb... about 1/16". After several thorough cleanings it continued to get worse. I called Kahr and they sent me a new set of recoil springs for free. It has functioned 100% since then.

I had a few hand loads that were just too light and gave me problems as I was working up the loads. Once I hit full power loads they functioned just fine with FMJ round nose and JHP bullets. Don't use lead in a DE, it will eventally plug the gas hole in the barrel. Some people use plated bullets but I prefer to stick with real copper jackets. I tried some cheap discount plated .50 bullets once and they jambed while feeding. That was more due to their odd shape than the plating. By very carefully tweaking the length I could get them to somewhat function but they were not worth the hassle. I went back to the Sierra JHP 50's and they function great over a range of full power charges. I haven't started working up .44 loads for the .44 barrel yet, I have just been shooting factory FMJ.

My L5 has a lighter slide than the full size XIX's. The full sized XIX's are supposed to be less picky than my light weight. I love my light weight L5 though and haven't been able to talk myself into a used full size.

With good springs and good full power loads my DE L5 is a teriffic and reliable gun. My Dan Wesson is a very reliable gun no matter the load and no matter how dirty it gets. The only thing you can really do to mess up a Dan Wesson is set the barrel gap too tight when changing barrels.

I could see open carrying my DE L5 in a good belt holster with a good belt. I can't see belt carrying a full sized DE XIX or my Dan Wesson 744 for any amount of time. My Dan Wesson came with a good chest holster that would be much more practical than a belt holster.

I honestly don't really have anything that I would need to shoot with a .50ae or .44mag... but they sure are fun!

 

[Zaydok Allen]

So what is Gained by adding the DE?

Potentially much deeper penetration, a larger wound channel, and higher velocities, but also potentially higher recoil and lower capacity.

The 10mm is much closer to a 357 magnum when comparing “power”. 41 mag blows 10mm auto out of the water too.

That being said, depending on the potential threat, the 10mm auto is a very effective cartridge.

 

[JTQ]

41 mag blows 20mm auto out of the water too.

I'm pretty sure it doesn't, but then you probably can't conceal carry it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M61_Vulcan

 

[Zaydok Allen]

I'm pretty sure it doesn't, but then you probably can't conceal carry it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M61_Vulcan

Ha! Fixed it.

 

[mcb]

The internet love to try to conflate 10mm Auto as 41 or 44 mag in a semi auto. But that comes from comparing modern high performance 10mm Auto ammo to cheap 41 or 44 mag ammo from the big three. When you push the cartridges to their SAAMI publish limits the 10mm Auto end up comparing reasonably well to 357 Magnum when both are loaded close to SAAMI MAP. Both top out in the mid 700's-lbs of energy with heavy for caliber bullets. 357 might eek out a bit more energy but 10mm will more easily push 200+ gr bullets

41 Mag and 44 Mag are a sizable step up from the previous two cartridges if your actually loading them to their full potential. 41 Mag fairly easily break 1000 ft-lbs and 44 Mag can exceed 1200 ft-lbs of muzzle energy when loaded close to SAAMI MAP with heavy for caliber bullets.

All of the above assumes similar barrel lengths that are longer than your thumb.

The 10mm Auto is a great cartridge that I have had great success with but it falls well short of the rimmed revolver cartridges who caliber starts with a 4.

Unless we are talking about 10mm Magnum then that gives 41 Mag a reasonable run for its money, but it's primarily a revolver cartridge too.

 

[ATLDave]

"Hunting and defense" are actually pretty different uses.

In hunting, the premium is generally on making a "one shot kill," ideally with minimal time from that shot to the animal's expiration (and end of pain). This generally is a shot taken at the time of the hunter's choosing, and often from an advantageous position (rested, with a relatively decent amount of time for a slow trigger press).

In defense, the premium is on being able to get one or more aggressors to stop their aggression. This rarely happens in a time and place of the defender's choosing (otherwise it's usually not defense!), but, instead, at whatever time and place the aggressors force it upon the defender. The defender will often be some combination of: surprised; frightened; moving to avoid attack; being shot at or melee'd against; trying to track multiple assailants; trying to track multiple friends, families, and/or bystanders that must not be shot; continually assessing whether the threat has ended such that continued use of force is no longer required; and a million other things.

Those are very different circumstances that put premiums on different things in handguns. In hunting, the premium is on accuracy at distances measured in tens of yards and a very high level of terminal efficacy. In defense, the premium is on fast handling (draws and transitions especially), fast splits/follow-up shots, accuracy that is adequate at distances typically under 15 yards, and rapid sighting, combined with as much terminal efficacy as you can get without greatly compromising these other requirements.

The 10mm happens to be in a place that, in the right gun, allows it to straddle things if what you're hunting is something like eastern white-tailed deer or smaller. But a .44 magnum is likely to be more surely-humane even for that. Conversely, while a .44 magnum can be used for defense - and is probably quite effective when its rounds hit - it's not optimal. The same substantial additional power that the .44 brings to the table carries recoil along with it, which influences the ability to hit repeatedly, or to hit different things in short order.

The 10mm is at the top of the power band of what is suitable for defense, and really only for people who have good recoil control technique. The .44 magnum is beyond it, though it will do in a pinch (and I'd probably be above the optimal power band than below it). If you're buying a gun for the hunting aspect, going to a .44 (especially if you put an optic on top of it) will give you more reach (distance/range), a little extra power for shots from tougher angles, and the ability to humanely take somewhat larger/tougher animals. If you're mainly thinking about the defense aspect, you're probably just about maxed out in terms of useful power with those 10mm's - improvements would come from skill and/or the addition of a red-dot.

 

[MikeInOr]

Potentially much deeper penetration, a larger wound channel, and higher velocities, but also potentially higher recoil and lower capacity.

The 10mm is much closer to a 357 magnum when comparing “power”. 41 mag blows 10mm auto out of the water too.

That being said, depending on the potential threat, the 10mm auto is a very effective cartridge.

The recoil shooting .44 mag and .50 as is big... but it isn't hard, hammering or punishing. If you have ever shot a bolt action 30-06 next to a M1 Garand the effect is very similar. The rotating bolt mechanism in the Desert Eagle distributes the recoil over a lot longer period so it feels like a big push rather than your hand being hit by a hammer. I would rather shoot a DE than a 10mm... although I really like 10mm's. As a side note, I really can't tell the difference in shooting 50 ae through my DE L5 and shooting .44 mag, the recoil both feel pretty much the same.

The same substantial additional power that the .44 brings to the table carries recoil along with it, which influences the ability to hit repeatedly, or to hit different things in short order.

I agree with you ALTDave but would like to point out that the recoil of .44 mag in a DE is very different than the recoil of a .44 mag in a revolver... even a much heavier revolver. After a few hundred rounds of practice the Desert Eagle is surprisingly controllable and pretty quick to return to target. I will qualify this statement by saying I have very long hands and the Desert Eagle L5 grip fits my hands very well. The XIX DE's have a bit bigger grip than the L5's.

That said, I don't see much use in .44 mag, .50 mag or any of the magnum handgun calibers more powerful than 10mm/.357 as good defense rounds. I personally prefer .45acp for defense.

 

[jmr40]

It's about barrel length. A 10mm will send a 200 gr hardcast from a 4 3/4" Glock barrel at 1300 fps. Which is about as good as you'll do with a 41 mag revolver with 200-210 gr bullets from a 4" or shorter barrel. Same thing when comparing 200 gr bullets fired from a 4" or shorter 357 mag revolver. A 44 mag firing 240 gr bullets will be in the 1150-1200 fps range from a 4" barrel. With those barrel lengths 10mm matches 41 and 357 mag performance and isn't as far behind 44 mag as most people think. I own 3" and 4" barreled 357 and 44 mag revolvers, but I trust my G29 pistol over any of them for large predator defense. If I were going to use it as a dedicated hunting handgun I'd carry my 4" 44 mag.

The numbers you see published for magnum revolver cartridges are all from 8" test barrels. The numbers you see published for semi-auto rounds are from 4.5" or 5" barrels. In the real world the numbers you see published for any of the semi-auto cartridges are much more realistic.

If you move up to a 6" or longer barrel then the magnum handgun cartridges start pulling away from what you can do with 10mm. But then size becomes a factor. If I need more than 4" in a handgun barrel I'd just as soon carry a short carbine length rifle. One edge that is going to go to the revolver regardless of barrel length is a better trigger pull than is commonly available on semi's. That means better accuracy regardless of range.

I've never seen any specific velocity tests with the DE. My personal thoughts are that if I wanted a 44 mag I'd stick to a revolver. Unless I just wanted the novelty of the DE.

 

[mcb]

It's about barrel length. A 10mm will send a 200 gr hardcast from a 4 3/4" Glock barrel at 1300 fps. Which is about as good as you'll do with a 41 mag revolver with 200-210 gr bullets from a 4" or shorter barrel. Same thing when comparing 200 gr bullets fired from a 4" or shorter 357 mag revolver. A 44 mag firing 240 gr bullets will be in the 1150-1200 fps range from a 4" barrel. With those barrel lengths 10mm matches 41 and 357 mag performance and isn't as far behind 44 mag as most people think. I own 3" and 4" barreled 357 and 44 mag revolvers, but I trust my G29 pistol over any of them for large predator defense. If I were going to use it as a dedicated hunting handgun I'd carry my 4" 44 mag.

The numbers you see published for magnum revolver cartridges are all from 8" test barrels. The numbers you see published for semi-auto rounds are from 4.5" or 5" barrels. In the real world the numbers you see published for any of the semi-auto cartridges are much more realistic.

If you move up to a 6" or longer barrel then the magnum handgun cartridges start pulling away from what you can do with 10mm. But then size becomes a factor. If I need more than 4" in a handgun barrel I'd just as soon carry a short carbine length rifle. One edge that is going to go to the revolver regardless of barrel length is a better trigger pull than is commonly available on semi's. That means better accuracy regardless of range.

I've never seen any specific velocity tests with the DE. My personal thoughts are that if I wanted a 44 mag I'd stick to a revolver. Unless I just wanted the novelty of the DE.

Froma 4-inch revolver 41 mag will spit a 230gr bullet at nearly 1400 fps actual tested*
From a 4-inch revolver 44 mag will spit a 240gr bullet at over 1450 fps actual tested*
*Using Buffalo Bore data.

If we go to longer barrels the differences get bigger as the 10mm Auto small case volume catches up with it.

10mm Auto is nice but it ain't no 41 or 44 Mag

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Froma 4-inch revolver 41 mag will spit a 230gr bullet at nearly 1400 fps actual tested*
From a 4-inch revolver 44 mag will spit a 240gr bullet at over 1450 fps actual tested*
*Using Buffalo Bore data.

If we go to longer barrels the differences get bigger as the 10mm Auto small case volume catches up with it.

10mm Auto is nice but it ain't no 41 or 44 Mag

If I could, I'd like your comment twice.

 

[ATLDave]

It's about barrel length. A 10mm will send a 200 gr hardcast from a 4 3/4" Glock barrel at 1300 fps. Which is about as good as you'll do with a 41 mag revolver with 200-210 gr bullets from a 4" or shorter barrel. Same thing when comparing 200 gr bullets fired from a 4" or shorter 357 mag revolver. A 44 mag firing 240 gr bullets will be in the 1150-1200 fps range from a 4" barrel. With those barrel lengths 10mm matches 41 and 357 mag performance and isn't as far behind 44 mag as most people think. I own 3" and 4" barreled 357 and 44 mag revolvers, but I trust my G29 pistol over any of them for large predator defense. If I were going to use it as a dedicated hunting handgun I'd carry my 4" 44 mag.

I think there's a little truth there but also quite a bit of overclaim. Just look at load data using the same powder and similar bullet weights for 10mm versus 41 magnum (two of my favorite cartridges). The .41 will take another 20-30% of the same powder under the same or slightly heavier bullet weight. Barrel runway is hardly the only difference between them.

 

[MTMilitiaman]

In practical terms, how much more powerful is a 44 Magnum Semi Auto such as the Desert Eagle than a 10 mm such as the Glock 20 or XDm 10 mm?

I have both those 10mm and am Seriously considering getting a DE 44, since I already have several 44 Magnum revolvers.
My primary purpose is Hunting and Defense.

So what is Gained by adding the DE?
Accuracy, Range, Lethality, Impact?

The Glock 20 and the Desert Eagle can both use full power ammo. So from their respective barrel lengths;
10 mm Auto:
200 gr JHP @ ~1200 fps
220 gr hardcast @ ~1100 fps

.44 Rem Mag:
240 gr JHP @ 1200 fps

The Desert Eagle is gas operated and per the manufactures recommendations, cast bullets should not be used. Cast bullets are not recommended for the Glock's polygonal rifling either, but aftermarket barrels with conventional rifling are readily available and common among those of us who handload for the cartridge. If you get the 10 inch barrel for the Desert Eagle, you can get another two or three hundred fps from that bullet. You may also be able to find jacketed projectiles for the .44 that are heavier, but I don't have any experience with them. My dad has used a 240 gr Sierra JHP for years in his Desert Eagle Mk VII and has taken deer and several black bear with it, so that is what I am familiar with. Getting more than 1200 fps with a 240 gr bullet will be difficult with the factory 6 inch barrel, because that is essentially a 4 inch revolver barrel. Autos measure barrel length from rear of chamber, so you have to subtract cartridge length to get usable barrel length. So by the numbers using these figures, we derive that the 10mm Auto gets between 590 and 640 foot pounds at the muzzle, and the .44 Mag from the Desert Eagle gets around 768 foot pounds. If you give it an optimistic 1400 fps, the .44 can boast 1045 foot pounds at the muzzle. The 10mm starts out with a frontal area of .126 sq inch while the .44 mag has an unexpanded frontal area of .145 sq in. So the 10mm Auto will have 87% of the .44's frontal area, 56 to 83% of its energy, and 83 to 92% of its mass. Meanwhile it has almost twice its capacity (which admittedly shouldn't matter hunting) and under half the weight (about 31 oz for unloaded G20 vs 64 oz and some change for aluminum framed Mk XIX Desert Eagle).

Of course, these are just the numbers. Deer don't read ballistics charts, so you have to keep perspective with these things.

The 10mm Auto should get the job done. If you need more power than the 10mm, the .44 Mag Desert Eagle isn't going to do it, unless maybe, you stick the 10 inch barrel on it. The .44 Mag has more capacity, the 10mm Auto operates at higher pressure. Pick your poison. Personally, the Glock 10mm is easier to pack and to shoot well, and is plenty lethal or deer, black bear, and hogs. If you're going after bigger game with a handgun, the .44 Magnum can do it better, but the Desert Eagle with the stock length barrel is not the platform I would choose. To really get an advantage over the 10mm from the .44, you're going to want a revolver with a longer barrel that will allow you to shoot heavy hard casts, like a 300 gr LBT WNFP at 1100+ fps.

 

[Huntolive]

Thanks for the excellent replies!
so what is involved in cleaning a desert eagle it seems like they are kind of finicky and that is my big hesitation and getting one.
What added maintenance is necessary and are they any more difficult to clean then a Glock or Springfield XDM?
What appeals to me about the Desert Eagle 44 Magnum is the accuracy and low recoil with all that power.
But if it's not going to be very reliable and too high maintenance then I might just leave it alone

 

[MTMilitiaman]

The internet love to try to conflate 10mm Auto as 41 or 44 mag in a semi auto. But that comes from comparing modern high performance 10mm Auto ammo to cheap 41 or 44 mag ammo from the big three. When you push the cartridges to their SAAMI publish limits the 10mm Auto end up comparing reasonably well to 357 Magnum when both are loaded close to SAAMI MAP. Both top out in the mid 700's-lbs of energy with heavy for caliber bullets. 357 might eek out a bit more energy but 10mm will more easily push 200+ gr bullets

41 Mag and 44 Mag are a sizable step up from the previous two cartridges if your actually loading them to their full potential. 41 Mag fairly easily break 1000 ft-lbs and 44 Mag can exceed 1200 ft-lbs of muzzle energy when loaded close to SAAMI MAP with heavy for caliber bullets.

All of the above assumes similar barrel lengths that are longer than your thumb.

The 10mm Auto is a great cartridge that I have had great success with but it falls well short of the rimmed revolver cartridges who caliber starts with a 4.

Unless we are talking about 10mm Magnum then that gives 41 Mag a reasonable run for its money, but it's primarily a revolver cartridge too.

This is a Desert Eagle we are talking about here. From experience, I can tell you that a) you're not using heavy for caliber bullets and b) you're not getting much over 1200 fps. The Desert Eagle is optimized for the 240 gr .44 Magnum load and with its barrel length, getting it over 1200 fps is not easy. My dad has tried, for decades. If you get longer bullets or bullets with larger meplats, it will hang up on the feed ramp and malfunction. Again, voice of experience speaking.

 

[MTMilitiaman]

Thanks for the excellent replies!
so what is involved in cleaning a desert eagle it seems like they are kind of finicky and that is my big hesitation and getting one.
What added maintenance is necessary and are they any more difficult to clean then a Glock or Springfield XDM?
What appeals to me about the Desert Eagle 44 Magnum is the accuracy and low recoil with all that power.
But if it's not going to be very reliable and too high maintenance then I might just leave it alone

Taking the Desert Eagle apart and cleaning it is easy enough. Pretty much just flip a switch,

 

[mcb]

This is a Desert Eagle we are talking about here. From experience, I can tell you that a) you're not using heavy for caliber bullets and b) you're not getting much over 1200 fps. The Desert Eagle is optimized for the 240 gr .44 Magnum load and with its barrel length, getting it over 1200 fps is not easy. My dad has tried, for decades. If you get longer bullets or bullets with larger meplats, it will hang up on the feed ramp and malfunction. Again, voice of experience speaking.

But that 1200 fps velocity is a limitation of the Desert Eagle not 44 Mag. I am pushing 240gr JHP (XTPs) to 1370 fps from my M29 and I only have 1/2 inch longer barrel and the Desert Eagle does not have a barrel gap the M29 does. I am not even maxing out published maximum powder charges for the powder I am using.

 

[readyeddy]

For hunting, the DE would be better than the G20 imo. In addition to the more powerful cartridge, I would say the DE is more accurate and has an easier to shoot single action trigger.

But I would not want to rely on the DE for self defense as it was never designed to fulfill that role.

Your .44 revolvers, however, would probably make a more efficient hunter than the DE. The DE is about one pound heavier than a Ruger Super Redhawk.

It's hard to justify the DE on practical reasons. People buy them because the want the gun, and those who enjoy the DE appreciate its looks, accuracy, quality and fun factor.

 

[MikeInOr]

Desert Eagle XIX steel frame steel slide, 6" barrel - weight: ~72oz
Desert Eagle XIX L6 alloy frame steel slide, 6" barrel - weight: ~60oz
Desert Eagle XIX L5 alloy frame, steel slide, 5" barrel - weight: ~40oz

If you're afraid that a .44 mag Desert Eagle won't get the job done then buy a .50 ae barrel. If a .50ae doesn't shoot flat enough for you buy a .429 Desert Eagle - 1600 FPS with 240 grain bullets and 1750 FPS with 210 grain bullets. I don't think a Desert Eagle will let you down as a hunting pistol. Sure you can buy a .44 mag revolver, a .454 mag revolver and a .500 mag revolver and easily out gun a Desert Eagle... but you you have to buy 3 guns instead of 1 or 2 additional barrels. The Desert Eagles also have a built in picatiny rail on top of its fixed barrel which is perfect for mounting a scope. I am not sure how you would mount a scope on a Glock 20?

--460Shooter - Yes the proper answer is to buy a 460 revolver!

 

[MTMilitiaman]

But that 1200 fps velocity is a limitation of the Desert Eagle not 44 Mag. I am pushing 240gr JHP (XTPs) to 1370 fps from my M29 and I only have 1/2 inch longer barrel and the Desert Eagle does not have a barrel gap the M29 does. I am not even maxing out published maximum powder charges for the powder I am using.

This topic is about the Desert Eagle. Experience with .44 Mag from revolvers isn't relevant or applicable.

 

[Barry loyd]

Isn’t it illegal to buy a DE in any caliber other than .50?

 

[mcb]

This topic is about the Desert Eagle. Experience with .44 Mag from revolvers isn't relevant or applicable.

I have not owned a 44 Mag DE but am not unfamiliar with them having shot a friend's a few years ago. If I follow your previous comments you're saying that if we take my 240gr 44 Magnum load that is loaded within SAAMI specs (pressure, OAL, etc) that has a measured velocity of 1370 fps from a 6.5-inch Model 29 and fire it in a 6.0-inch Desert Eagle that I will loose nearly 200 fps and/or not function correctly? This seems hard to believe given my load is rather middle of the road for 44 Mag in both bullet weight and velocity. If this is true then the Desert Eagle is not much of a handgun if it is that finicky about ammo.

A quick search found me at least two online articles of people chronographing 44 Mag 240gr ammo through a 6.0-inch DE at over 1300 fps in one and 1430 fps in the second.