1911s, what's the big deal?
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doctorhumbert
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I too had doubts about 1911s in my foolish youth. I mean, thing is almost century old, it's gotta be collectable obsolete toy for old WWII veterans.
Then I bought Kimber Custom, I liked it.
Then I bought Colt Combat commander, colt 1991, ANOTHER Colt combat commander, Colt Gold cup, Kimber Target, then Les Baer TRS, and so on...
So why the sudden addiction on design that is older than my grandpa?
NO other auto handgun. I say that again. NO other auto handgun nicer trigger as 1911. Only other handgun I know that comes close are Sig 210 and HKp7m8.
Many people say it is liked because of history, yes true, but it does NOT make it an obsolete! Far from it!
It is Rugged, Ergonomic, Fast Shoting, Simple, No plastic BS gun.
Designs old as 1911, such as Luger P-08 (1908) are indeed obsolete as a modern combat handgun, but 1911 is still wonderfully dependable, when even compared to so called modern handguns.
Those who say 1911 are hype hasn't fired one.
Then I bought Kimber Custom, I liked it.
Then I bought Colt Combat commander, colt 1991, ANOTHER Colt combat commander, Colt Gold cup, Kimber Target, then Les Baer TRS, and so on...
So why the sudden addiction on design that is older than my grandpa?
NO other auto handgun. I say that again. NO other auto handgun nicer trigger as 1911. Only other handgun I know that comes close are Sig 210 and HKp7m8.
Many people say it is liked because of history, yes true, but it does NOT make it an obsolete! Far from it!
It is Rugged, Ergonomic, Fast Shoting, Simple, No plastic BS gun.
Designs old as 1911, such as Luger P-08 (1908) are indeed obsolete as a modern combat handgun, but 1911 is still wonderfully dependable, when even compared to so called modern handguns.
Those who say 1911 are hype hasn't fired one.
Many have told you some of the merits of the 1911. I agree with Seeker_Two, go out and try one for yourself. If something has been manufactored for the better part of a century, with very little modification from the original design, and is still popular today then there must be something very good about it
That is not true. I have had several and I still don't understand what all the fuss is about.
I had two high dollar 1911s that shot really well but if I spent $1500 on ANY gun, I would expect it to shoot as well.
I don't think there is anything really special about the 1911 but there are a lot of custom makers and aftermarket parts that tune a 1911 into anything you want. For the same amount of cash, you could probably turn any gun into a good shooter but the know how is there in spades to tune 1911s.
There aren't as many Beretta custom guys out there but I have heard of custom Berettas being bulls eye gun after some work.
I think it all boils down to ergonomics, the 1911 fits most people's hands better than Glocks, H&K, Berettas, etc. It is also sort of a club to own a custom or high dollar 1911. Kind of like Harley Davidson's, they have appeal just because of the status.
Why do people pay $40 for a T-shirt that says Polo rather then $5 for a plain one? They want people to see that they have enough money to buy what they want. It is way of separating yourself from those around you or to fit into a certain crowd. Some people, probably most of the poeple that are on this site, buy them because they want the added preformance and accuracy that a good 1911 will give you. Most of the people here are probably serious shooters and they know the difference between junk and quality guns. There are a lot of yahoos that just want to tell people that they have a Wilson or a STI etc. Those people probably couldn't tell the difference between a Wilson and a Springfield if the name wasn't printed on the side!
Archie
Member
The reasons have been listed.
Good grip shape.
Controllable power.
Excellent trigger.
Excellent reliablility. (At least in the well made ones. Even Cadillac makes a lemon from time to time.)
Controls convenient and easy to operate.
And an intangible. It was designed by, and made for men who understood what combat was really about. It is an engineering statement of what it means to "Stand and Deliver".
I have all sorts of handguns, including a couple plastics. They are all okay in their own right. But if I know I'm going into trouble, a 1911 in 45ACP is at the top of the "A" list.
If anyone cares, I've been carrying a gun for almost 40 years now. I could be wrong, but I'm not in doubt.
Good grip shape.
Controllable power.
Excellent trigger.
Excellent reliablility. (At least in the well made ones. Even Cadillac makes a lemon from time to time.)
Controls convenient and easy to operate.
And an intangible. It was designed by, and made for men who understood what combat was really about. It is an engineering statement of what it means to "Stand and Deliver".
I have all sorts of handguns, including a couple plastics. They are all okay in their own right. But if I know I'm going into trouble, a 1911 in 45ACP is at the top of the "A" list.
If anyone cares, I've been carrying a gun for almost 40 years now. I could be wrong, but I'm not in doubt.
antediluvianist
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I believe it was Cooper who said something like : "You use .45 pistols to be able to use the .45 ACP cartridge; you use the 9mm. cartridge to be able to use the 9mm. pistols. "
If we accept that point of view , then the best of both worlds is a pistol originally made for 9mm. , which fires .45 ACP . I hear good things about the Glock in .45 ACP , although I haven't fired one.
Using Cooper's dictum, the worst of both worlds would therefore be a pistol originally made for .45 ACP, which fires 9mm. For a short time I owned a 1911 in 9mm.. Others certainly will have had different experiences from mine, but my 9mm. 1911 didn't perform as smoothly or as reliably as the .45 1911s I have owned or used, and it didn't have as good a "feel" (too much gun mass for the cartridge, and an abrupt "jump" at detonation rather than the .45's mellower "roll".)
Cooper might be right.
If we accept that point of view , then the best of both worlds is a pistol originally made for 9mm. , which fires .45 ACP . I hear good things about the Glock in .45 ACP , although I haven't fired one.
Using Cooper's dictum, the worst of both worlds would therefore be a pistol originally made for .45 ACP, which fires 9mm. For a short time I owned a 1911 in 9mm.. Others certainly will have had different experiences from mine, but my 9mm. 1911 didn't perform as smoothly or as reliably as the .45 1911s I have owned or used, and it didn't have as good a "feel" (too much gun mass for the cartridge, and an abrupt "jump" at detonation rather than the .45's mellower "roll".)
Cooper might be right.
Feanaro
Member
Why do people buy Kraft cheese over Southern Home? Because they think Kraft tastes better. I don't really like Glocks. I don't dislike them either though. I don't like Berettas at all. I don't like revolvers much. But I love the feel of the USP, Baby Eagle and the 1911. I cannot tell you why, they just fit me better than other weapons. The 1911 has an intangible attraction. It's a myth, a symbol and, for me, a wonderful weapon.
Gunner45
Member
"It's flat, has simply the best trigger design, has a low bore axis, has simply the best trigger design, is easy to customize to suit your individual tastes, has simply the best trigger design, is amazingly easy to CCW for a full-size all-steel service pistol, and it has simply the best trigger design."
Tamara
Very well said Tamara!
Gunner45
Tamara
Very well said Tamara!
Gunner45
Byron Quick
Moderator In Memoriam
I've owned a few 1911's. My first was in .38 Super Auto. Once I realized I needed to buy quality magazines for it...I had no problems.
It takes about a 1000 rounds or so to break in a new 1911. Consider how many folks out there say they have trouble with a 1911 when they've fired maybe 60 rounds through it.
I've got 1911's that I have to fire in excess of 500 rounds without cleaning before I begin to experience malfunctions.
What Tamara said.
What Daniel Flory said.
Besides, SA autos rule. The SA/DA platforms are a perfect solution in desperate search of a problem.
It takes about a 1000 rounds or so to break in a new 1911. Consider how many folks out there say they have trouble with a 1911 when they've fired maybe 60 rounds through it.
I've got 1911's that I have to fire in excess of 500 rounds without cleaning before I begin to experience malfunctions.
What Tamara said.
What Daniel Flory said.
Besides, SA autos rule. The SA/DA platforms are a perfect solution in desperate search of a problem.
I've owned Colt 1911's and I'll own another again. It was either stick with cocked and locked 1911's or Glock/SIG type guns (no safeties). I chose the latter to simplify my training which I think is far more important than the novelty of having too many types of defense handguns. (Besides I'd be able to keep two different brands. ) Which is also another huge reason I haven't bought a squeeze cocking H&K P7/M8. Although I'd really love to get my hands on one one day. Perhaps its only a matter of training or whatever but I know I won't have to deal with it.
1911's and BHP's. What's the big deal? They work and they'll continue working until the age of laser pistols. And even then they'll be effective.
And DA/SA's "a perfect solution in desperate search of a problem" huh? Isn't this the same tedious non sequiter used against the .40 caliber and polymer frames that we get beat over the head week after week?
Well, as Ella Fitzgerald and Tamara once said "you say 'po-tay-toh I say po-tah-toe' "
...Let's call the whole thing off
) Which is also another huge reason I haven't bought a squeeze cocking H&K P7/M8. Although I'd really love to get my hands on one one day. Perhaps its only a matter of training or whatever but I know I won't have to deal with it.1911's and BHP's. What's the big deal? They work and they'll continue working until the age of laser pistols. And even then they'll be effective.
And DA/SA's "a perfect solution in desperate search of a problem" huh? Isn't this the same tedious non sequiter used against the .40 caliber and polymer frames that we get beat over the head week after week?
Well, as Ella Fitzgerald and Tamara once said "you say 'po-tay-toh I say po-tah-toe' "
...Let's call the whole thing off
Rob96
Member
What everyone said in support of the 1911.
Ah can anyone rapid fire a out of the box 1911? seems to me a person could put about 6 rounds in a persons gut while the .45 is pointed at the moon? I have a old colt and it does have a good trigger(did not come that way) but its not my pick for fast aimed fire.
Byron Quick
Moderator In Memoriam
Nope. Personal opinion and personal preference. I have no problem with what others choose. But I could have bought another 1911, revolver, or long gun instead...so I do.
Al Thompson
Moderator Emeritus
buttrap, it's all a matter of training.
Tamara
Senior Member
The 1911's ability for "fast aimed fire" is part of the reason it shoots in a class of its own in IDPA.
Sean Smith
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It should be.
Still rules
I'm not a fan of the 1911 personally but acknowledge it's position:
-Manual safeties on handguns, can be in the wrong position at the wrong time and get you killed with an AD or get you killed when the gun doesn't fire.
-Don't care for the feeding characteristics of the .45 ACP in JHP and I think the FMJ .45 is a very overrated stopper. I think a handgun needs speed in it's round not mass to be effective.
-Only 7+1 rounds is way too low, you might as well just use a revolver and be done with the hassle of trying to feed that big bore JHP ammo.
-Slow follow up shots.
-Cheap ones are junk, good ones cost an arm and a leg.
-Have to be too loose to be reliable, have to be too tight to be accurate.
-On and on.
After all this, as much as I like the Glocks and Sigs and other "Euro-crap", I know when a "typical" handgun is placed in a museum in 100,000 years by our distant relatives to be, it will be a 1911 next to a picture of John Wayne.
It's like putting a Corvette article in a car magazine... a 1911 on the cover of a gun mag will double sales. As said before, if the same design is still around after 100 years, it must be right for a lot of people.
Pico
I'm not a fan of the 1911 personally but acknowledge it's position:
-Manual safeties on handguns, can be in the wrong position at the wrong time and get you killed with an AD or get you killed when the gun doesn't fire.
-Don't care for the feeding characteristics of the .45 ACP in JHP and I think the FMJ .45 is a very overrated stopper. I think a handgun needs speed in it's round not mass to be effective.
-Only 7+1 rounds is way too low, you might as well just use a revolver and be done with the hassle of trying to feed that big bore JHP ammo.
-Slow follow up shots.
-Cheap ones are junk, good ones cost an arm and a leg.
-Have to be too loose to be reliable, have to be too tight to be accurate.
-On and on.
After all this, as much as I like the Glocks and Sigs and other "Euro-crap", I know when a "typical" handgun is placed in a museum in 100,000 years by our distant relatives to be, it will be a 1911 next to a picture of John Wayne.
It's like putting a Corvette article in a car magazine... a 1911 on the cover of a gun mag will double sales. As said before, if the same design is still around after 100 years, it must be right for a lot of people.
Pico
Byron Quick
Moderator In Memoriam
I assume you mean that the user has forgotten to disengage the safety or to reengage the safety not that the safety is in the wrong place on the pistol.
If the first is correct, then it is a practice and training issue...nothing more.
Quintin Likely
Member
The big deal is...
...that so many manufacturers today have some kind of problem where they try stuffing cartridges that are nearly 1/2" in diameter in a double stack magazine, creating a grip thick enough that'd best be suited for a shoulder fired weapon. I like single-stack .45s, the 1911 seems to be the most popular platform for that purpose. Works for me.
If 7+1 and a reload can't get the job done, there's several other choices:
1 - More training.
2 - The strategic retreat.
3 - Bring a rifle if you're expecting that much trouble.
I'm not gonna touch that one with a 10 foot pole...
...can be remedied by training and is directly dependent on the shooter.
I thought that was the way things were in life? Never skimp on anything that's going in your stomach, on your feet, or in your holster. <edit> And besides, you could buy a decent fighting grade 1911, nothing fancy or anything, for well under $1K. Probably within the same price range as most other semi autos (eg Glock, Sig, Beretta, etc al) and not too far away from some higher end revolvers.
To each their own, I suppose, that's why there's hundreds of manufacturers of all different types of pistolas to suit your needs.
...that so many manufacturers today have some kind of problem where they try stuffing cartridges that are nearly 1/2" in diameter in a double stack magazine, creating a grip thick enough that'd best be suited for a shoulder fired weapon.
I like single-stack .45s, the 1911 seems to be the most popular platform for that purpose. Works for me.If 7+1 and a reload can't get the job done, there's several other choices:
1 - More training.
2 - The strategic retreat.
3 - Bring a rifle if you're expecting that much trouble.
I'm not gonna touch that one with a 10 foot pole...
...can be remedied by training and is directly dependent on the shooter.
I thought that was the way things were in life? Never skimp on anything that's going in your stomach, on your feet, or in your holster. <edit> And besides, you could buy a decent fighting grade 1911, nothing fancy or anything, for well under $1K. Probably within the same price range as most other semi autos (eg Glock, Sig, Beretta, etc al) and not too far away from some higher end revolvers.
To each their own, I suppose, that's why there's hundreds of manufacturers of all different types of pistolas to suit your needs.
Sven
Senior Member
There's something in the way she shoots,
Or looks my way, or calls my name,
...with apologies to James Taylor. This gun points very naturally for me, has an extremely light trigger (allowing or more precise shots), and the reset on the trigger is about... half a millimeter... making rapid fire as easy as moving my finger a full millimeter for each shot.
The grips are slim and checkered - much easier to hold on to than any other gun I own. Plus, it eats big bullets.
Or looks my way, or calls my name,
...with apologies to James Taylor. This gun points very naturally for me, has an extremely light trigger (allowing or more precise shots), and the reset on the trigger is about... half a millimeter... making rapid fire as easy as moving my finger a full millimeter for each shot.
The grips are slim and checkered - much easier to hold on to than any other gun I own. Plus, it eats big bullets.
It never ceases to amaze me that the folks who worry about "forgetting" their thumb safety on a 1911 are going to "remember" to keep their finger off the trigger when they don't want to shoot. I am sure that for Sean, myself, and other ardent 1911 shooters in this thread, we catch ourselves from time to time swiping safeties off on other handguns that don't have them. On the draw I have swiped revolvers, an XD I tried, and once, just once, swiped the pistol grip unconciously on an AR-15. I didn't believe it, but my friends and I were videotaping and sure enough, I'd done it with the first mag eventhough the AR was off safe and already pointed downrange after charging.
JHP feeding problems are overstated in modern 1911 pistols. From mags that seat the round higher relative to the chamber, ramped barrels, and essentially factory ramped and throated set-ups from everyone else=problem solved.
As for mass versus velocity in a handgun round, there are literally thousands of dead guys killed by Thompsons, Grease Guns, and 1911s who'd disagree mightily about the effectiveness of .45ACP FMJ if they somehow could.
There is no feeding problem, but as an aside, one can readily go to 8+1, 10+1, or even 14+1 thereabouts and still have everything a 1911 is famous for. BTW are you going to establish your own "beat zone" of suppressive fire on the street or something? A civilian self-defense shooter "owns" every bullet launched. As a civilian, if 7+1 can't get it done, chances are you are going to prison or the morgue. One thing is certain, you can't find or carry as easily a revolver that equals the power and flat concealability of a Commander sized 1911.
Which is of course why the CDP class .45ACP 1911 is as fast or faster than all other times at the IDPA nationals for SSP (Glocks), and SSR (revos). Only the ESP division, filled with SA 9mm "gamers" armed with pistols that not many with sense would rely on in reality, come close.
Cheap ones can be junk. Good ones are cost competitive with anything on the market. Exceptional ones cost and arm and a leg.
Pure misconception. It is not the slide to frame fit that determines accuracy, it is the quality of the fitting of the barrel lugs to the lock up cuts in the hood and the fitting around the muzzle and the slide or bushing that determines accuracy. Again, in non-.22 accuracy competitions, the contests are dominated by 1911s.
Got any more howlers?
Now that I got your attention...
Hey great replies everybody. Seriously, Cceared up a lot of my misconceptions.. No kidding. Also, incredible pictures Sven, that is a beautiful gun.
OK,
Boats... 2 of the 3 guns you claimed killed thousands were FULL AUTO. I could also cite the thousands killed with small caliber full auto by Germans and Russians in WWII. But, I am not arguing the .45 ACP (and 1911) has not put time in combat and served well. I am having some problems wondering how dead guys are going to argue anything at all.... Maybe in the next life we can poll them?
Instead of flipping a switch that may or may not be there, finger off the trigger is a great universal safety that will work on SA, revolvers, BB guns, and everything else from power drills to squirt guns. That is my opinion and the one shared by the overwhelming majority of gun designers in the last decade or so.
I don't own a .45 ACP in a 1911 platform or anything else (go ahead and quote me and say that is the main problem) but all of my friends WHO DO OWN ONE have told me JHP rounds don't always feed well in .45 ACP in their pisolts. Their real live experiences not mine. If you can make them feed fine but the 1911 was primarily designed for FMJ, hardball, whatever you want to call it. Would any of you choose this for a self-defense round?
A 7+1 .45 is low capacity compared to most semi-autos some of which are .45 ACP. This does make a skinny grip to hold and a flat pistol to hide, no argument there. Just pointing it out but if it turns into spray and pray, the other guy will still be spraying and you'll be praying unless you bring some more mags to the party.
I've shot .45's and it is a very different feel from a 9 mm snap and not unpleasant but it isn't anything like what a good, rapid shooting pistol should be. I have big hands and am very strong but I still can empty a mag faster on target with almost anything else.
Guys, I admire this pistol and Mr. Browning's genius. I also admire the SAA Colt and Sam Colt's vision.
I just don't admire either of these fine old handguns enough to put up with them when better, more modern weapons are available which do the job better.
Excuse me, let me get my fire extinguisher.
Pico
Hey great replies everybody. Seriously, Cceared up a lot of my misconceptions.. No kidding. Also, incredible pictures Sven, that is a beautiful gun.
OK,
Boats... 2 of the 3 guns you claimed killed thousands were FULL AUTO. I could also cite the thousands killed with small caliber full auto by Germans and Russians in WWII. But, I am not arguing the .45 ACP (and 1911) has not put time in combat and served well. I am having some problems wondering how dead guys are going to argue anything at all....
Maybe in the next life we can poll them?Instead of flipping a switch that may or may not be there, finger off the trigger is a great universal safety that will work on SA, revolvers, BB guns, and everything else from power drills to squirt guns. That is my opinion and the one shared by the overwhelming majority of gun designers in the last decade or so.
I don't own a .45 ACP in a 1911 platform or anything else (go ahead and quote me and say that is the main problem) but all of my friends WHO DO OWN ONE have told me JHP rounds don't always feed well in .45 ACP in their pisolts. Their real live experiences not mine. If you can make them feed fine but the 1911 was primarily designed for FMJ, hardball, whatever you want to call it. Would any of you choose this for a self-defense round?
A 7+1 .45 is low capacity compared to most semi-autos some of which are .45 ACP. This does make a skinny grip to hold and a flat pistol to hide, no argument there. Just pointing it out but if it turns into spray and pray, the other guy will still be spraying and you'll be praying unless you bring some more mags to the party.
I've shot .45's and it is a very different feel from a 9 mm snap and not unpleasant but it isn't anything like what a good, rapid shooting pistol should be. I have big hands and am very strong but I still can empty a mag faster on target with almost anything else.
Guys, I admire this pistol and Mr. Browning's genius. I also admire the SAA Colt and Sam Colt's vision.
I just don't admire either of these fine old handguns enough to put up with them when better, more modern weapons are available which do the job better.
Excuse me, let me get my fire extinguisher.
Pico
varoadking
Member
I could be wrong, but I'm not in doubt.
Second really good tag line I've seen here. Unfortunately, like the other, I'll likely forget it too... :banghead:
Second really good tag line I've seen here. Unfortunately, like the other, I'll likely forget it too... :banghead:
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