What's With 1911s?

[SOUTHPAW]

I <3 my 1911

 

[DRYHUMOR]

What Correia ^ said.

The 1911 was purpose built, to hit a man sized target.

Manufacturing evolves, machining evolves, designs evolve. There are still loose 1911's out there being made every day, as are there tight ones being made as well.

I imagine either one would hit a man sized target at say 25 yds. Maybe even 50 or 75 yds with a good shooter. If the 1911 was unreliable, I would have thought the pistol would have become history long ago. Yet it endures.

I think nearly every semi auto has had at least one or more malfunctions of some sort. On the 1911, more than a few of them come from magazines.

Folks that claim zero malfunctions must have all gotten Wednesday builds, when everyone was in the groove. It would be nice to follow a pistol through production and say "I want that one"

However, that said, once a 1911 is shot and broken in, they will run pretty consistent. And may never have another problem.... until that next round. That's the unkown of every pistol, the next round.

 

[Slamfire]

I seriously doubt that most folks who don't care for the 1911 are afraid of the words "cocked and locked".

Well I am.

When I pulled this M1911 out of my waistband, only to find that the safety had been bumped off, I decided that getting shot in the butt was not a good idea. And since then, I have looked at cocked and locked as an accident waiting to happen.



Not only that, but based on this picture, the thumb safety is a sear blocking safety, not a hammer blocking safety. Sears are thin pieces of steel balanced on thin hammer surfaces. I would prefer something more substantial than a sear blocking safety.
.

Not everyone agrees that cocked and locked is the safest mode. In the following excerpt from 1960’s Guns, the editor is a believer of Condition 3: chamber empty. Any 50’s or 60’s editor would have been a WWII or Korea War veteran and would have seen a lot of M1911’s in service and would have been very cognizant of their foibles in the hands of average Joe’s.


Keith wrote an article claiming the safest way to carry a M1911 was cocked and locked. The Editor changed the text in Keith's article to “carried with the chambers empty”. Keith must have been mad about the misquote. The Editor later wrote this.

Guns April 1960, “Apologies to Keith”

….Editorially and humbly, I apologize to Keith. But with some experience in pistol wearing too, I disagree with him. Naming no names, I have seen slide safeties on auto pistols fails, whether by mechanical failure or by being released by holster friction, rubbing against clothing, or by unintentional thumb pressure: and the grip safety on the 45 Colt is released when you grasp the butt, whether you intend to fire or not. I’ve carried autos fully loaded too; but I won’t recommend it. What may be relatively safe for a man with a lifetime of gun-handling experience is not necessarily safe at all for the average person.

Forgive me, Elmer. Next time I have ideas of my own to print, I’ll do it under my own byline.- EBM

 

[SeanMTX]

You people are correct...the 1911 is an unsafe, heavy, clunky, outdated, low capacity piece of metal better served living in a shadowbox on a wall somewhere.

I encourage you to evangelize that message out to as many people as you can...my 1 Dan Wesson isn't enough and I don't like paying retail.

 

[mljdeckard]

If new, un-modified 1911s need tuning to run correctly, I must be doing something wrong. I guess I'll just have to try harder to make mine jam. My Kimber Custom II is BY FAR the best handgun I have ever owned, as well as the most reliable NIB. (I had a Sigma that was a catastrophe.) I use it for everything, and if I were given the choice of ANY pistol on this planet, I would carry it to war tomorrow.

I do think that a couple of events coincided to make 1911s as strong as they are now. The first was the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban. The magazine restriction caused a lot of new shooters to look at them when they might not have otherwise because they couldn't buy higher-capacity mags for other guns anyway. The other was the emergence of the semi-custom market. In the early 90s, there were pretty much three flavors of 1911s. Imported knock-offs, Colts, (which I tried and found to be unremarkable in general,) and Customs like Wilsons, Baers, and Browns. There wasn't much middle ground. Then Kimber started selling guns with hand-fitted slides and match trigger groups for prices that has previously been called impossible. This forced the other areas of the market to readjust their models and marketing, and the market doesn't look anything like it did before now.

1911s in general are at least as reliable out of the box as any other pistol. The problems come when people (meaning, BOTH manufacturers and gunsmiths, professional and otherwise,) start MESSING WITH IT. If there is a perception of non-reliability, I think it has as much to do with rookie shooters, bad magazines, and home repairs as much as anything else.

As for the 1911s that were used as controls in the army trials, remember that they were WWII frames that had been reconditioned. If you were doing trials for a replacement sidearm now, and used a 40+ year-old reconditioned Beretta as a 'control', would you expect it to perform as well as the new trial guns submitted by various manufacturers for trials?

Scoff at 1911s all you want. Every discerning shooter I know owns at least one, and most of them carry one. Take your Glock Sig, Beretta, whatever, and see how many of them will be MORE POPULAR THAN EVER on their 100th birthday. even if you think there are things wrong with the design, no other design got as much RIGHT.

 

[HisSoldier]

Why can't some of these companies find a way of improving the design?

What's to improve? I love and trust my 1911's just the way they are, and by the way, if you change it it isn't a 1911 anymore.

 

[Billy Shears]

Well I am.

When I pulled this M1911 out of my waistband, only to find that the safety had been bumped off, I decided that getting shot in the butt was not a good idea. And since then, I have looked at cocked and locked as an accident waiting to happen.

Well if it's an accident waiting to happen, I have to say that almost a full hundred years of service do not seem to have brought to light many accidental discharges from this cause. And even if the safety does just come off (and in twenty years of carrying 1911s around, I've never managed to make any of mine do it), the grip still has to be grasped, and the trigger still has to be pressed to drop the hammer.

Perhaps it is possible if you simply carry in a waistband (the so-called "Mexican carry"), but since that's a piss poor way to carry any handgun (gun moves around, requiring constant readjustment, can fall out when you move around a lot, run, etc.), and I'd never do it, I'm not too concerned about that. The Milt Sparks and Kramer holsters I have are stiff leather, and are molded to the gun's contours, which includes the contour of the safety in the engaged position, and with the gun inserted into such a holster, I don't know how on earth you'd ever get the safety just to wipe off. Even when I deliberately try to disengage it in the holster, by pushing on the lever on the right side of the frame (it's an ambidextrous safety), I can't get it to move because the holster's holding in place.

Color me unworried.

 

[JTQ]

SlamFire1 provided the following...

Keith wrote an article claiming the safest way to carry a M1911 was cocked and locked. The Editor changed the text in Keith's article to “carried with the chambers empty”. Keith must have been mad about the misquote. The Editor later wrote this.

Guns April 1960, “Apologies to Keith”

Quote:
….Editorially and humbly, I apologize to Keith. But with some experience in pistol wearing too, I disagree with him. Naming no names, I have seen slide safeties on auto pistols fails, whether by mechanical failure or by being released by holster friction, rubbing against clothing, or by unintentional thumb pressure: and the grip safety on the 45 Colt is released when you grasp the butt, whether you intend to fire or not. I’ve carried autos fully loaded too; but I won’t recommend it. What may be relatively safe for a man with a lifetime of gun-handling experience is not necessarily safe at all for the average person.

Forgive me, Elmer. Next time I have ideas of my own to print, I’ll do it under my own byline.- EBM

You do know he is talking about all semi-auto pistols here. A group that would currently include Sigs, Glocks, H&Ks, XDs, Berettas, S&W M&Ps, etc....., not just the 1911 or other single action. Times change as do attitudes. Most would think nothing of carrying a semi-auto (any semi-auto) with a round in the chamber these days.

 

[Confederate]

Great replies, but the fact remains that given five 1911s right out of the box and five assorted new generation autos (Glock, Beretta, Sig Saur 9mm/.45ACP) and 2,000 rounds of ammo, there's an outstanding chance that any malfunctions will involve the 1911s, not the others. (True, limp wristing can queer the Glock results, but if fired properly, the Glocks function very reliably.)

I've seen expensive Kimbers choke up on ranges and it's inexcusable to see it. Surely someone can redesign the 1911 so that it will look like a 1911, function like one, but have the reliability of a newgen pistol.

A gun magazine could do such a test, but I'm not sure it would be completely...honest.

 

[doc540]

Like they say, "a picture is worth a thousand words"

Bridget Bardot
(no picture)

1911

 

[.45Heater]

Sillyness...

Pick one.... it'll go bang!

 

[mljdeckard]

I flat reject that if you take five 1911s and five other guns new out of the box the 1911s are more likely to jam up. I also reject that price has anything to do with which ones will jam. The only 1911 I have had jam at all on me lately is the Nighthawk I shot at a rental shop. It was dirty, but not any dirtier than I have run my Kimber with no problems. I have had a total of two failures to feed when my Kimber was brand new, and my dad's SA Mil-Spec has been flawless as far as I know for a couple of years. I would not expect ANY new gun to run any better than that.

 

[DeepSouth]

Folks that claim zero malfunctions must have all gotten Wednesday builds, when everyone was in the groove. It would be nice to follow a pistol through production and say "I want that one"

After reading this thread I have come to a conclusion........... a LOT of 1911's are made on Wednesday, Maybe not all but a whole lot.

 

[Slamfire]

You do know he is talking about all semi-auto pistols here. A group that would currently include Sigs, Glocks, H&Ks, XDs, Berettas, S&W M&Ps, etc....., not just the 1911 or other single action. Times change as do attitudes. Most would think nothing of carrying a semi-auto (any semi-auto) with a round in the chamber these days

I think he was talking about the M1911. In the 50's to the 60's, you had the P38, Luger, a S&W autopistol, and the M1911. Even 70's vintage semi's, such as my P-9, are a lot safer to carry with a round in the chamber than any M1911.

 

[greyling22]

1911's a fine gun, but I can relate to the OP. did handguns reach the pinnacle of perfection that long ago? there's no room to innovate? no better designs anywhere? nothing new under the sun?

sure, it's got good ergonomics and a nice trigger, but it's got a zillion parts, aftermarket everything has to be hand fitted. and that's not really even touching on the 45 acp. all the same things can be said about it.

I personally think gun makers are just being lazy and the shooting community is letting them get away with it. Take a look at almost any gun company. what do they make? a 1911 clone, a glock clone, an AR. take a look at the gun section on the magazine isle. what' on the cover? a 1911 clone, an ar clone, a glock clone. now with extra rails!!

and I'm not just picking on the 1911, glock, I'm looking at you. 25 years to innovate and what have you given us? more calibers and a new grip texture! we went from cassettes to ipods in that time for crying out loud.

I know it's risky to do something new, times are tight and they need to pump out a product they are sure will sell, but if compare the firearms industry to many other industries they just look like they are just sitting around. lazy.

sorry, off my soapbox now, didn't mean to thread hijack. go 1911 rah rah. I like mine. I like my glock too. I just wish I had more variety.

 

[Billy Shears]

I think he was talking about the M1911. In the 50's to the 60's, you had the P38, Luger, a S&W autopistol, and the M1911. Even 70's vintage semi's, such as my P-9, are a lot safer to carry with a round in the chamber than any M1911.

No, he wasn't talking about the 1911, he was talking about auto pistols in general, because that's the word he used. If he had meant the the 1911, he would have said, "I've carried 1911s (or forty-fives, or government models, or some other name that clearly specifies 1911s) fully loaded too, not "I’ve carried autos fully loaded too..." And he would also have said "I have seen safeties on 1911s fail..." not "I have seen slide safeties on auto pistols fail." He had two opportunities to name the 1911 specifically, if he wanted to single it out, and he didn't either time. He was pretty clearly referring to autoloaders generally.

And incidentally, since 1911's don't have "slide safeties" they have frame mounted ones, he couldn't have been referring to the 1911 as the particular autoloader whose safety he had seen fail (P38s, PPs/PPKs, and S&W model 59s, on the other hand, did feature slide mounted safeties).

He meant autos.

 

[fistpoint]

There are many rifles that are far more accurate than an AK, as well as ergonomics and features...yet everyone should have at least one type of AK.

It sounds like you are looking at this strictly from a utility point of view and disregarding the collectible factor. What I mean is of course you can buy a "better" pistol, but it won't necessarily be a 1911 afterwards.

Why do people still buy Corvettes?
.
.
.
Oh yea. They did of course "innovate" and/or "improve". We now have beavertail styled safeties, ambi-safeties, loaded chamber indicators, flared ejection ports, larger safeties, different hammer styles, different trigger lengths, larger/extended mag releases...lastly AND leastly(sic), new guide rods.

 

[NMGonzo]

1. It's heavy,
2. It has a low magazine capacity for its size and weight,
3. I don't like a manual safety that I must disengage in order to fire a pistol,
4. It is a big and bulky pistol,
5. The tiny stock military sights suck.

1. It is a stable platform that doubles as a blackjack if neede
2. 9 rounds in my weapon appears to be plenty.
3. My 100 pound vegetarian liberal gf had no problem learning to draw and shoot in under a second.
4. It is slender and has great hard sharp edges to bludgeon someone if needed to be
5. The smaller, thinner sights make my 1911 easier to carry Messican and also make it easier to aim as thin as I want to aim.

 

[Ky Larry]

Haven't we beaten this horse into red jelly about a million times? I carry my Kimber Custom Defender because I like it and trust it. If you don't like 1911's, don't own one. After almost 50 years of shooting, owning, and carrying all types of guns, I really couldn't care less what people think of my choices.

 

[Lastmohecken]

Well, I will tell you what, I have seen just about all of the major semi-autos malfuction at one time or another, for one reason or another, espacally if they are really dirty.

I have put more rounds down range, through the barrels of 1911's then any other centerfire pistol, and frankly, a good 1911 can hold it's own against just about semi auto pistol for both accuracy and reliability.

One problem that might hurt the reputation of 1911's a little is there are just so many of them out there that have been worked over, messed with by every joe blow in the world, and also there have been so many different companies produce them in varying degrees of quality both in workmanship and parts quality, that no doubt many 1911's will malfunction, possibly more often then the average off the shelf Glock.

But a good 1911 is pretty darned reliable. I will put my personal 1911's up against just about anything, for both down range accuracy and reliability, even after they are very dirty, from many rounds fired.

The cocked and locked issue is another story to debate, but I trust a good 1911, with a 4 lb trigger, carred in a good holster, about as much as Glock carried with one up the pipe.

And really nothing carries better then a Combat Commander for it's size, or handles any better. It's my semi-auto of choice.

 

[John Wayne]

1911s fall into the same category as Case knives, Zippo lighters, and Harley-Davidsons: they are over-priced, outdated pieces of American nostalgia that have been replaced by simpler, more reliable designs and only survive today because half their products are "collectors items." If you can't sell something worth using, sell it as a collector's item (like baseball cards and stamps).

There have been lots of other antiquated designs that fell by the wayside (Broomhandler Mauser) but the 1911 only survived because of people willing to dump money into keeping it alive. It has created its own sub-market dedicated to making the gun actually work. Custom pistolsmiths can practically stay in business fixing 1911s but a Glock armorer who had to fix factory pistols would go broke (except maybe for the G36).

Shooting sports like IPSC create seperate divisions for 1911 style pistols, for no good reason. I know competetive shooters who use $2100 1911s for competition because they like the style and looks, but will be the first to tell you they don't actually carry one. I have personally shot only 2 1911 pistols that didn't malfunction, out of 10 or so that I've tried. I have my doubts that if I'd fired more than a mag through the two that worked that they'd still be trouble-free.

I think the 1911 was pretty good for its day, somewhat of a mechanical marvel. So were the model "T" Ford and Lindbergh's airplane. There's a reason you don't see any modern car companies producing model "T" Fords though, or any originals on the road as daily drivers.

 

[Fastcast]

1911s fall into the same category as Case knives, Zippo lighters, and Harley-Davidsons: they are over-priced, outdated pieces of American nostalgia that have been replaced by simpler, more reliable designs and only survive today because half their products are "collectors items." If you can't sell something worth using, sell it as a collector's item (like baseball cards and stamps).

There have been lots of other antiquated designs that fell by the wayside (Broomhandler Mauser) but the 1911 only survived because of people willing to dump money into keeping it alive. It has created its own sub-market dedicated to making the gun actually work. Custom pistolsmiths can practically stay in business fixing 1911s but a Glock armorer who had to fix factory pistols would go broke (except maybe for the G36).

Shooting sports like IPSC create seperate divisions for 1911 style pistols, for no good reason. I know competetive shooters who use $2100 1911s for competition because they like the style and looks, but will be the first to tell you they don't actually carry one. I have personally shot only 2 1911 pistols that didn't malfunction, out of 10 or so that I've tried. I have my doubts that if I'd fired more than a mag through the two that worked that they'd still be trouble-free.

I think the 1911 was pretty good for its day, somewhat of a mechanical marvel. So were the model "T" Ford and Lindbergh's airplane. There's a reason you don't see any modern car companies producing model "T" Fords though, or any originals on the road as daily drivers.

INNOVATION

 

[M&PVolk]

It's funny how uptight people get defending the 1911. To me, the 1911 is probably the sexiest handgun ever produced. Beautiful and time tested, it carries a nostalgia with it that no other handgun does. For all of it's pros, there are plenty of cons to it as well. Modern technology has created other designs that are perhaps more practical to the 1911 for specific situations. Cost is also another factor for many considering the 1911 vs. a newer design. I think the classic vs. modern car analogy works the best when considering the argument of poly guns vs. the 1911.

I love classic cars. I own them. Nothing on the road today can match the look and feel of a solid vintage car properly built or restored. It has soul, fine tuned performance, beautiful lines, and a sense of true pride of ownership. Unfortunately, they are expensive to buy, expensive to customize, and expensive to feed! Nothing makes me feel quite like I do when I am driving my vintage ride, but I sure wouldn't want to drive it to work everyday!

For that everyday car, give me a regular utilitarian vehicle. Lots of plastic, lightweight, solid if not thrilling performance and low maintenance (at least for awhile). It doesn't inspire, but it is safe and cheap to drive. You won't typically do much customization, but when you turn the key, it starts and gets you from point a to point b. You don't worry much about it's appearance. You don't mind racking up the miles on it. It is simply a better tool for everyday work.

The 1911 is that sweet ride in the garage you can't wait to use, the Glock is that gun that makes you feel secure everytime you put it on. Both are worthy, they are just worthy for different reasons. And then, sometimes a european sports car works the best for you, and you drive home a CZ instead!

 

[robctwo]

Did he say he was disappointed with shooting them?

 

[harmon rabb]

"The 1911 is NOT just a handgun. It is a military design that was a bit before its time and changed the battlefield in the way that gun powder did"

The way gun powder did? Really? LMAO. No. It didn't. Not even close. Handguns don't mean squat on the battlefield. Rifles do.