.223 Self Defense
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Kachok
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That is why the Army still uses 9mm sub guns in some urban situations, because they will penatrate those barriers. Sometime penatration is just what the situation calls for, there is something to be said for progressive loading for 12ga #6 shot, #1 buckshot and finnaly 00 buckshot.
RPRNY
Member
Bold added
Spot on. And I would add, less training intensive. The ability to load slugs for sub 100 yd reach, breaching rounds, buck, and non-lethal ammo in one low cost firearm will mean that the shotgun has a place in LE for a long time to come.
M193 is still a very good round up close.
TAP/Vmax and other poly tipped bullets are all the rage but expensive to practice with.
TAP/Vmax and other poly tipped bullets are all the rage but expensive to practice with.
newglockguy
Member
I'm worried about over penetration because I live in an apartment complex and don't want to scare my neighbors. I have a shotgun but only with a 28 inch barrel so I'm working on getting a shorter one. What's a decent price on self defense rounds in .223 or 5.56? I know they aren't going to be cheap.
BoilerUP
Member
Buy a couple boxes of 50/55gr Hornady V-Max for $20ish each and call it good...
Have you checked out the wall penetration tests at the website I linked? www.theboxotruth.com
Cliff notes: Anything that can be relied upon to reliably stop an attacker will go through multiple interior walls. Many .223/5.56 rounds penetrate fewer interior walls than buckshot or pistol rounds.
The price of defensive .223/5.56 depends on the round you choose. Anything from $.50-$1.50 per round. For you a popular choice would be Hornady TAP, which can be round pretty easily for about $1/round.
newglockguy
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Didn't see the link at first. Good stuff.
Archangel14
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You really must give thought to the self-defense scenario you envision. Inside your home? Then I think an AR is not your best choice. A shot gun or handgun is best for that application. I will be purchasing a big bore lever action this Christmas for defense purposes. But I envision having to defend outside my home, upwards of 150 yards away from looters in a Katrina-like scenario. An AR would be great for that application. I simply choose a big bore for that "I'm in command" touch.
Why?
I chose a SBR AR for its flexibility; maneuverability, less wall penetration, 30 rounds and better ballistics out a couple of hundred yards if i need to carry the defense outside.
I do agree the AR is best suited for multiple attackers in a major event. For go to fast, i still have my 9mm very close. No matter which i feel is best for wall penetration, a hi cap 9mm pistol is fast to get and wield. The shotty is currently my major event go to. The 16" AR is a bit long for inside, but if i am defending outside, the 16" AR will be the one. It is kinda hard to put a shotty or AR in the night stand.
Now the question is, how fast can i get ear pros in since i don't have a can yet? just kidding.
to Kachok: i agree with your reply. I think #6 shot is a great choice to start with. It can do serious damage close up without going thru walls. Last year, the outdoor channel had a great segment showing how different ammo penetrated. #6 shot performed very well. Down side, it might not stop a hopped up intruder wearing heavy clothing.
I do agree the AR is best suited for multiple attackers in a major event. For go to fast, i still have my 9mm very close. No matter which i feel is best for wall penetration, a hi cap 9mm pistol is fast to get and wield. The shotty is currently my major event go to. The 16" AR is a bit long for inside, but if i am defending outside, the 16" AR will be the one. It is kinda hard to put a shotty or AR in the night stand.
Now the question is, how fast can i get ear pros in since i don't have a can yet? just kidding.
to Kachok: i agree with your reply. I think #6 shot is a great choice to start with. It can do serious damage close up without going thru walls. Last year, the outdoor channel had a great segment showing how different ammo penetrated. #6 shot performed very well. Down side, it might not stop a hopped up intruder wearing heavy clothing.
Why do you believe it won't go through walls?
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
All that thinking goes against what every SWAT team in the United States has learned in the last 30 years.
Big bore rifles shoot through bad guys, and walls, and continue on down the street.
Handguns and 9mm sub-machinguns shoot through bad guys, and walls, and continue on down the street
Even shotguns have fallen out of favor for some of the same reasons.
A .223 carbine is the preferred weapon of choice for urban gunfights by every SWAT team in the country.
Why?
Because it gets the stop with one shot, usually.
And certainly if not a one shot stop, very few more and the BG is DRT.
And the bullets won't keep going, and going, and going like the Energizer bunny to kill somebody's grandma in her bed two houses away.
Look at the Hornady Urban TAP ammo tests here and figure out what they already figured out.
http://www.hornadyle.com/products/rifle-ammunition/223-remington/55-gr-tap-urban
http://www.hornadyle.com/products/rifle-ammunition/223-remington/60-gr-tap-urban
rc
allaroundhunter
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Most 5.56/.223 rounds will penetrate less than 12 ga buckshot or a JHP handgun round. It has been tested and proven many times over.
Archangel14
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Most modern homes have sheet rock interior walls. They're not good for stopping much of anything. You don't want to risk a missed shot in the interior of your home in the dead of night, having just been awaken from REM sleep with the idea that an intruder is in your home. Especially if you are an apartment/attached condo dweller and/or if you have other people throughout the home. And imagine shooting someone from, say, 10 feet with a AR round moving upwards of 3000 fps? I'd be too afraid that the round will exit and continue onward. I should have been more specific: a shotgun with good bird shot or a .45 or .38 with low velocity rounds. Although I think such rounds will penetrate sheet rock, the risks are nowhere like cracking off an AR.
Archangel14
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As a reply, I've personally shot a single JHP .223 round through 10 layers of sheet rock from 25 feet away. No way, no how, should someone use an AR to fend off an intruder feet away inside a how when there are other people in the home. Unless that's all you have, I assume. Even then, I'd rather use a knife or my hands that put my babies at risk from an errant round (assuming the intruder was not armed...and that, I admit, would be a big assumption).
Which actual test of rounds through interior walls are you basing this on?
Archangel14
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WARP: mine. Please think about this: slow moving metal vs. hyper fast moving metal? I don't care if it's hollowpoint, soft tip, or made of Chinese dumplings. A 5.56 round fired in the confines of a 15 x 12 room is MUCH more likley to penerate layers of crappy sheet rock than is the bird shot or the .38 round moving at 850 fps.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
No, it isn't.
A 50-55 grain bullet going 3,000+ FPS is more likely to turn itself to lead & copper dust after passing through one sheet rock wall then a 158 grain .38 bullet going 850.
You should actually try it some time, instead of making up your mind before trying it some time.
rc
A 50-55 grain bullet going 3,000+ FPS is more likely to turn itself to lead & copper dust after passing through one sheet rock wall then a 158 grain .38 bullet going 850.
You should actually try it some time, instead of making up your mind before trying it some time.
rc
Neverwinter
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I'd also want to see the gel penetration/expansion results before settling on them.
Archangel14
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RCmodel: you must be reading books instead of performing real world applications. Go get your AR. Position 10 layers of sheet rock in front of it. Stand 25 feet away (which is much further than if you were in your house) and fire. Then, go look at the sheet rock.....like I did.
I did the same thing with Corbon 100gr. Powerball in .38. I can't recall how many sheets it penetrated, but it stopped somewhere well short of the 10 sheets that the 5.56 blew through.
And as for gel? Let me know when a 200 pound piece of ballistic gel breaks into your house....in the dead of night....waking you from REM sleep...making the adrenaline pump....as you reach for your military weapon, designed to hit men up to 500+ yards away.....discharging a projectile that is traveling at 3,000+ fps. This is real life, not a theoritical exercise, and we're not SEALS. Get a weapon for the house, will you guys please?!...Shotgun....pistol. Choose.........
I did the same thing with Corbon 100gr. Powerball in .38. I can't recall how many sheets it penetrated, but it stopped somewhere well short of the 10 sheets that the 5.56 blew through.
And as for gel? Let me know when a 200 pound piece of ballistic gel breaks into your house....in the dead of night....waking you from REM sleep...making the adrenaline pump....as you reach for your military weapon, designed to hit men up to 500+ yards away.....discharging a projectile that is traveling at 3,000+ fps. This is real life, not a theoritical exercise, and we're not SEALS. Get a weapon for the house, will you guys please?!...Shotgun....pistol. Choose.........
There are tests where people actually did it. There is no need to make up results based on what you think will happen. The actual real world tests are out there, and they are not hard to find.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
Sir.
You don't need to convince me.
I'm to old to be convinced.
The people you actually need to convince is every SWAT team in the USA who now use AR-15's instead of 9mm sub-machineguns and shotguns for entry teams in urban settings.
And it isn't because every one of them want to play dress-up play solders.
It's because they are more effective, and more importantly, safer to surrounding neighbors.
rc
You don't need to convince me.
I'm to old to be convinced.
The people you actually need to convince is every SWAT team in the USA who now use AR-15's instead of 9mm sub-machineguns and shotguns for entry teams in urban settings.
And it isn't because every one of them want to play dress-up play solders.
It's because they are more effective, and more importantly, safer to surrounding neighbors.
rc
Archangel14
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Actually, I think someone here posted the results showing that a 5.56 round penetrated over 10 layers of sheet rock. Kind of like my real world test. Hey, how about giving me some advice? Should I move to my .416 Rigby as my inside-the-house-defense gun? Why not? Let's shoot all kinds of crazy field rifles in the house! It'll be fun! Maybe we might shoot the neighbor by accident! Why not?...we have AR's...like the SWAT guys! We're ready for all intruders!
allaroundhunter
Member
I seriously doubt your tests. I conducted tests with 5.56, 9mm, .45, 12 ga and finally, .308.
The 5.56 and .308 penetrated drywall the least. Their high speed causes any slight flight disruption and density change to destabilize them and even fragment due to forces on the bullet. It is physics, and it has been proven many times for those who have a hard time actually grasping the concept without actually witnessing it.
This statement shows that you aren't understanding how the 5.56 is a good choice. It is a *light* bullet traveling at a very high velocity. As I said, it can be destabilized very easily, and even fragment from very little resistance. Your .416 Rigby is a very heavy round, traveling at a slow*er* velocity. It is harder to destabilize (and for good reasons there are no defensive rounds made for it), and therefore offers great penetration. Hey, that is kinda what a dangerous game round is designed for, isn't it?
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