Thernlund said:
So, you are stupid enough at weddings and funerals?
Juuuust kiddingggg.
Hey, cut me some slack. I wasn’t the one getting married!
‘Stupid’ I can certainly be; but, I am smart enough to have kept my PPK-S for more than 35 years, now. I don’t hate the 380; I just keep my expectations for this relatively weak little round where they belong.
ByAnyMeans said:
Doesn't your story prove that the caliber was not what is effective but shot placement. If an incredible number of hits from a .40sw with law enforcement grade ammunition doesn’t do the job then we are all in trouble unless there was another reason. I think the reason may have been no CNS shot or not enough large blood moving organs were hit to give an effective stop and this can happen no matter what the weapon especially when talking handguns.
Wow, that’s a tough question! I wish I had a definitive answer for you; but, I’m going to have to fall back on some, ‘real world’ thinking in order to reply. Yes, accurate and effective shot placement would certainly solve a very great many gunfighting dilemmas. The problem is that effective shot placement isn’t easy to achieve while you’re in the middle of a life and death gunfight.
In the real world you take whatever hits you’re able to make and are forced to deal with the immediate results. If all these FBI reports, and Drs. Fackler and Courtney’s research have given us anything, at all, it’s the certainty that there is no perfectly effective and reliable pistol bullet. The mass, the velocity, and the energy simply aren’t available! (Just between you and me I don’t think they ever will be, either.)
In order to solve the well known problems with handgun ammunition, the whole delivery system AND the ammunition would have to be changed. In my own experience as a combat handgunner I can tell you that once you’ve got a pistol bullet that will reliably do the job, you end up shooting it out of something that is totally impractical for combat handgunning; e.g.: Dirty Harry’s 44 Magnum revolver! The recoil and front sight dwell time, alone, will get you killed.
As far as JHP ammunition goes: If we’ve learned anything about it, at all, over the last 25 years it’s that it’s inconsistent. Sometimes, with some pistols, on some targets, and from certain angles it works; and at other times, with other pistols, on other targets, and from other angles it does not. Sure, the head and the CNS are always the preferred and most desirable targets; unfortunately, they are, also, the most difficult to hit.
The George Deeb gunfight left the Hazleton law enforcement community in an uproar! Four involved officers, shooting generally well regarded 40 caliber handguns, loaded with the nation’s premier law enforcement ammunition; and one tactical 5.56mm entry carbine weren’t able to quickly end this fight. Two officers were wounded and one had to sit there, wounded and unable to continue, while the perpetrator reloaded right in front of him.
Just so we understand each other: I regard any effort to hit the head and CNS as the equivalent of trying to hit a wiggling snake in the middle of a gunfight. Yes, it can be done; but, are you going to be able to do it in the time and with the opportunities allowed? This personal opinion on my part has significantly affected and radically changed the way I approach gunfighting.
Fact: I haven’t fired a single shot from a combat pistol in years! Everything I fire is in multiples of: two, three, or four. I have spent thousands of dollars teaching myself how to improve my repetitive shooting skills.
Fact: I will only carry a large caliber semiautomatic pistol as a primary.
Fact: I never carry less than 30 rounds of ammunition with me everywhere I go.
Fact: I shoot all of the popular pistol calibers reasonably well. However I shoot the 45 acp very well. This is, probably, because the 45 acp has the most controllable and the most rapidly recoverable recoil characteristics of all the other handgun calibers I’ve tried. What I can easily do with the slow heavy push of a 45 acp I need to concentrate harder on to accomplish with the sharp snappy recoil of a: 9mm, 40, or 357.
True, at the end of the day, shooting a 9mm seems like a cap gun; but, this is irrelevant to me because I want to fire a bullet that is a lot heavier, has a greater cross sectional density, and does a better job of penetrating AND delivering foot-pounds of energy into the target.
Sure, I’m not crazy about the 230 grain 45 acp’s 300 + foot pounds of muzzle energy; but, once things get speeded up, the recoil characteristics and front sight dwell time increase to levels which I consider to be unacceptable for swiftly, ‘weighing down’ a target.
Fact: I prefer to use FMJ/RN ball ammo; and, I definitely want that 11-12 inches of large caliber penetration, too. I, also, think that you or I have a better chance of winning the PowerBall lottery than we do of, either, getting hit by, or hitting someone else with a pass-through round! Besides, as the Hazleton gunfight clearly demonstrated: All pistol ammunition has the ability to easily pass through the intended target – ALL pistol ammunition!
I don’t expect everyone to agree with me. This is the internet; and, everyone is entitled to his own opinion. Hopefully, when, ‘sparks fly’ in a thread like this everybody will have an opportunity to share, to rectify, to modify, or just plain argue about his own personal opinions. This seems to be a large part of how we, all, learn.
I’m an old gunman; and, these are my own admittedly controversial opinions. I try to tell the truth as I see it; if I’m wrong, or, ‘stupid’ …… well, I promise you it is an honest mistake. In any event I have always tried very hard not to make the same mistake twice. Bigger heavier pistol bullets are my first choice; and, the pistol’s recoil characteristics are of supreme importance to me. If the gun AND cartridge don’t handle well, then, I certainly don’t want to be caught in the middle of a gunfight trying to use it.
Going for the head and CNS in the middle of a gunfight is like trying to catch the brass ring on a merry-go-round: Sometimes you’ll make it; but, most often you won’t. Consequently you’ve got to be able to do as much general damage as possible in the shortest amount of time. (This is something I think Dr. Michael Courtney emphasizes particularly well!)
Yep 380 works just fine. cared backup for 15 years.HP are fine also.but my 45 is better...