A note on Calibers from Larry Seacamp

[gym]

32ACP pistols were once used extensively by police and military in countries like Spain, Belgium, France, Finland, Germany and the USA. In WWII, American general grade officers were issued .32ACP Colt M1903 pistols for carry while a variety of pistols in .32ACP were standard fare among German soldiers. When Hitler committed suicide, it was a 7.65mm (.32ACP) PPK he chose. This now often frowned upon caliber had enough prestige to make it the preference of Ian Fleming’s James Bond, who like Hitler also favored the .32ACP PPK. As to stopping power, statistics show shot placement trumps caliber every time. It’s more conducive to good health to be shot in the foot with a .44 Magnum than in a vital zone with a .22 or .25.
advice would be to carry the largest caliber you can comfortably shoot and comfortably carry. That said, all studies show the advantage of caliber is very slight or negligible compared to the benefit of shot placement. Human beings are not Bengal tigers or Grizzly bears. We are comparatively a fragile species, including those human specimens hyped on steroids or having a natural overdose of testosterone

 

[Soybomb]

Ymmv, but I'm not sure I find that to be compelling. A fictional character carried it? A man once stopped himself with it? Perhaps it has fallen out of favor for good reason.

 

[Shadan7]

Well, I won't say that "the marketplace has spoken" is the final answer about caliber - there has undoubtedly been some 'inflation' in what is considered a minimal caliber for cultural reasons - but you've got a pretty good point there, Soybomb. To say that caliber doesn't matter, only shot placement does, would be to imply that we could get by with just a .22, since they are easy to shoot, minimal recoil, et cetera.

For me? .38 +P is minimal.

7

 

[Poor East Texan]

I've always believed that shot placement takes precedence over caliber.

That said .32ACP is the least I'd want.

There are some dandy 9MM out there however......

 

[matt87]

Ian Fleming knew very little about guns; Mr. Bond was originally armed with a .25 Beretta he modified himself; Fleming was issued one of these when he was in a similar job to his famous creation.

If a general has to use their sidearm for defense, something has gone awfully wrong. A pistol for many officers in the past (and today) was considered a badge of office, a defense against mutinying troops, or to execute prisoners. A small and light .32 pistol is an advantage here over a full-size classic combat pistol.

And a suicide as evidence for a calibre's effectiveness? There are cases of sub-12 ft/lb air guns being used for suicide. Doesn't mean I'd carry one for defense.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

With all respect for Mr. Seecamp, who makes a fine semi-auto in .32 caliber but nothing else, shooting a steroid-enhanced, prison sponsored body builder with a .32 is likely to not even produce much of an "ouch." Just about 40 years ago a second cousin in Arizona, who was a gun dealer and self-defense advisor, told me the smallest he felt comfortable allowing his wife to carry was .38 Special. And the bad guys 40 years ago weren't as bulked up, or generally as likely to be high on ... something.

 

[SoCalShooter]

Agreed shot placement is very important but not all those who carry guns are able to shoot every week or anywhere near that much, so caliber is extremely important to cause enough shock to the would be attacker to hopefully get him her or it to rethink their life up to this point.

 

[M203Sniper]

Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas

Accuracy, Power, Speed

 

[Deanimator]

That's funny, because I once remember reading a story that Herr Seecamp told about being in the Wehrmacht in the Soviet Union during WWII. It seems that his base was attacked by Soviet troops, one of whom soaked up several 7.65mm pistol rounds without noticeable effect. Supposedly after that, Seecamp drew a 7.63mm Mauser broomhandle as his personal weapon...

 

[JohnBT]

"Mr. Seecamp, who makes a fine semi-auto in .32 caliber but nothing else"

 

[JesseL]

It should be obvious that you shouldn't pack a gun that's too powerful for you to handle, but I know plenty of people who carry .45ACP and .357 guns and can place shots quickly and accurately with them. Most any able bodied adult can handle a .38 special or 9mm without trouble.

The primary things I see the little .22, .25, .32, and .380 guns have going for them are weight and concealability. Most of them seem harder to shoot accurately than the typical guns in more substantial calibers, due to tiny grips and sharp recoil from straight blowback mechanisms.

 

[akodo]

32ACP pistols were once used extensively by police and military in countries like Spain, Belgium, France, Finland, Germany and the USA.

it was once CARRIED, but used extensively? How many officers shot people with it? How many officers got 1 or 2 shot stops, not surrenders?

In WWII, American general grade officers were issued .32ACP Colt M1903pistols for carry

Officers aren't supposed to shoot stuff, they tell the grunts to shoot stuff. A pistol in WW2 days was as much a badge of rank as a tool. Even then, we gave as many as we could 1911s.

while a variety of pistols in .32ACP were standard fare among German soldiers.

When you have to buy or procure your own, you get what you can find for sale, and you take what you can find. If that is sticking a jewish shopkeeper's 32ACP in your belt before hauling him off, that's what you get. Besides, the German Soldiers ALSO had 8mm mauser rifles and 9mm parabellum submachineguns that they were supposed to use. No one gave those soldiers 32ACP pistols with the idea that they'd use em against the enemy, except in the most dire emergency. Even then, offically they were given knives for the same purpose, and I see no one arguing that makes knifes an adequate choice and all personal firearms irrelevant

When Hitler committed suicide, it was a 7.65mm (.32ACP) PPK he chose.

If the criminal is going to let me put the muzzle of my gun to his head, yes, there is no need for 9mm or 45acp or 357 magnum. A .22LR works great to kill a hog for butchering and will even work on a cow...providing she is standing there and you can go up and place the muzzle to the right spot on her head.

This now often frowned upon caliber had enough prestige to make it the preference of Ian Fleming’s James Bond, who like Hitler also favored the .32ACP PPK.

Ian Fleming was a gun idiot. Bond first had a .22 or .25 beretta with a 'sharpened firing pin' Bond later had a heavily modified Smith and Wesson M39, a single stack 9mm

As to stopping power, statistics show shot placement trumps caliber every time. It’s more conducive to good health to be shot in the foot with a .44 Magnum than in a vital zone with a .22 or .25.

I agree with this to a degree. A gun too big for you to control is a bad choice, but that doesn't mean smaller is better. Shoot a bear in the vital zone wiht a 22LR it will do nothing. There are many cases of a 25 not penetrating heavy winter clothing, so a 44 to the foot WOULD beat a 25 to a parka. Eskimos have killed polar bears with a .22LR through the eye, but I'd rather have a 338 winmag.

Human beings are not Bengal tigers or Grizzly bears. We are comparatively a fragile species, including those human specimens hyped on steroids or having a natural overdose of testosterone

and yet even the most potent handgun calibers are riddled with occasions where even with a torso hit it failed to immediately stop a 'fragile' human being. Also, while there is mention of steroids, there is no mention of 'tripping on LSD' or 'high on crystal meth' Besides, not all our threats are two legged. Pit bulls don't die very easy.

 

[sacp81170a]

Human beings are not Bengal tigers or Grizzly bears. We are comparatively a fragile species, including those human specimens hyped on steroids or having a natural overdose of testosterone

And we also have the incident where a State Trooper shot the BG six times in the torso at close range with a .357 and the BG survived. The Trooper was killed by the BG's .22 that struck him under the armpit and lodged in his heart. Sometimes it's better to be lucky than skilled, but the fact remains that six torso hits with a .357 were insufficient to stop one overweight, out of shape, sober human from killing a well armed, armored and trained human. If I could comfortably shoot a hand held 20mm cannon, I would carry one. I can't, so I carry the largest caliber that I can shoot and conceal comfortably based on the circumstances.

 

[gym]

Personally, I carry a 9mm, or a 45, 80% of the time, and a 38+p in a titanium snubby the other 20%, although I do own a Seacamp that I purchased a dozen years ago, When you had to wait a year and spend a grand, to get one. And a lot of weather you stop someone faster with this, or that, is a relative thing. Luck is a large part, when men are moving, and firing at the same time as their blood and adreniline is pumping through their body. It is hard to stop any person with one or two shots, unless you are skilled enough or lucky enough to hit them in the heart, or the head with pistol ammo. I always think of the Tueller 21 foot rule. That 200 lb BG, can close the distance on you real fast if you don't keep you whits about you. the Tueller Drill is based upon the relation between distance and time and the drill itself proves one simple fact which in reality most people are not fully prepared to accept, let alone attempt to truly deal with. The reality which most are either unaware of or immediately discount for any imaginable reason is that the average adult human male can close a distance of 21’ within approximately 1.5 seconds. Now, should we couple this time frame of 1.5 seconds with the average untrained individuals ability to control their emotions and fear, “Accurately” determine the approximate distance from their attacker, “Accurately” clear their cover garment, secure a proper grip, draw the weapon, align the sights and engage a hostile target with a minimum of 2 rounds to the “COM” (Center of Mass) who is 21’ feet away will be somewhere in the range of 2.5 seconds – 3.5 seconds, we can see a very obvious problem. This problem is that the attacker will have on average a 1.0 sec. – 2.0 sec. advantage and it is this very advantage which can get you killed!

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Ian Fleming knew very little about guns; Mr. Bond was originally armed with a .25 Beretta he modified himself;

As I recall, Bond "personally sawed off" the front sight, and filed the firing pin to a "needle point."

So now the secret is revealed -- James Bond's name is "Bubba!"

 

[Walkalong]

That's good.

As far as effectiveness, no, a .32 is not at the top of the heap, but if someone shoots you between the eyes with one, I bet it's over.

"Bond, James Bond". Still one of the most famous lines in cinema, as it should be.

Too bad the newer Bond movies are just typical action movies these days. Nothing special.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Bubba Bond.....What was Mr. Fleming's theoretical plot basis for having Bond remove ("saw off") the front sight??? Or the needle point for that matter?

Everything's already been said except "this belongs in General Handguns".

I want a 9mm Mak / .38 Spl minimum (or .380 in a real pinch). Right now, the smallest handgun caliber I own is 9mm Mak (not counting .22s, which are not *defensive handguns*). In the past I have owned both .380s and .32s. Sold them. I *may* get one of the new Kahrs in .380, but I doubt it.

There was at one time a good reason to buy a .32: it was the only way to get a super small, highly concealable auto pistol. And, under the "the only gun that matters is the one you're carrying" axiom, this could come in handy in circumstances of limited concealability options. Nowadays, in that situation, there are several .380s as small as .32s, so the .32 unnecessary (unless the recoil of the .380 in such a tiny pistol is too small for you).

The smallest handgun I currently own is a Kahr MK9, 9x19 luger. It's not small enough for true pocket carry, but it is highly concealable.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Bubba Bond.....What was Mr. Fleming's theoretical plot basis for having Bond remove ("saw off") the front sight??? Or the needle point for that matter?

Apparently, the idea was to demonstrate his lack of expertise.

Consider Frederick Forsythe's Day of the Jackal, where he has a "specialist" drill out .22 Hornet bullets and put a drop of mercury inside to make "explosive bullets."

 

[Vern Humphrey]

As far as effectiveness, no, a .32 is not at the top of the heap, but if someone shoots you between the eyes with one, I bet it's over.

On the other hand, if he hits you in say, the leg, and you return the favor with a .45 or .357, the point spread changes in your favor.

 

[esq_stu]

all studies show the advantage of caliber is very slight or negligible compared to the benefit of shot placement

Where's that list of studies? Seems to me the published statistics on one-shot stops (favoring bigger and hotter rounds, irrespective of shot placement) do not support your conclusion. Are you counting those studies as confirming this statement?

Suicides with .32s don't impress me. I didn't buy my guns for that purpose.

The round's gotta change your attacker's channel immediately. If it won't penetrate the chest more than a few inches, shot placement is all that remains - better be able to hit the eyeball or spine at whatever range is required. I'm not sure that's possible in a personal defense situation where you are under severe pressure.

And your .32 cal gun is probably not sufficiently accurate to place a shot very well.

 

[Walkalong]

On the other hand, if he hits you in say, the leg, and you return the favor with a .45 or .357, the point spread changes in your favor.

Well now, I can't argue with that one. I guess I better not miss with my .32, or be the one with the .357. .

 

[sm]

Mr. Seecamp is passing forward some very good information.
One would be wise to read again, and have a open mind.


In the real world folks have been making fun of Americans for some years.
Americans tend to have John Wayne Syndrome.
"Bigger and Badder" being the stereotype.

Americans have to have big guns, big cars and everyone is a Cowboy, or Jackie Stewart, or ...

Americans can often be the most ungrateful and uncivilized folks could ever meet.
Their poop don't stink, they are always right and if you don't like where you live in the world - well just pack up and move to the USA.

Some countries restrict guns, and always have.
Civilians perhaps could not have the same calibers as Military or Police.

I was born in the mid 50s and folks had been overseas, fighting in wars.
Mentors and others here in the USA, were real concerned with GCA of '68 , that Americans might be restricted in what they could have.

Some still are.
So USA uses Mossberg , Rem 12 gauge shotguns.
Beretta, Kimber, Colts ...in 9mm and 45ACP.
ARs in .223...

Let us pretend we have gun control hit in the USA and YOU cannot have anything like Police of Military.

You are screwed!
Just like some European countries have been...

Forget 12 ga, 9mm, 45ACP, .223 and ...
.40 cal, 357 Sig, 38spl, .357 ...oh the Police have these, remember?

Some folks are going to have a Reality Check about Magic Talismans and Holy Grails if this tragic event were to happen to the USA.

.32ACP, .380, .22 lr, 25ACP, 20 ga, 30-30...might not be so damn antiquated after all.
Hell, folks might actually learn to avoid getting into situations in the first place, and if they are in fear of life, be able to place a hardball bullet where it needs to go.

I had mentors that survived using .22 lr, 25ACP and 32ACP
The pocket knife was no bigger than 3" closed.

Do not even think , much less say to me, my Mentors did not, or could not have done so.

Tack-tickle knives are another thing...more game and more killings have been done with a carbon steel blade kitchen knife, around the world, more than whatever silly butt tack-tickle folks have clipped to pockets.

Mr. Seecamp is passing forward something.
Investigate and Verify.

Life ain't a movie...dead is dead.

 

[Walkalong]

Reality break. Good stuff sm.

In 30+ years I have carried a .22 Mag or .32 more than all others combined, by a long shot. Not my first choice for a gun fight, but I have it with me vs the howitzer(insert your choice) back home all safe and sound tucked away.

Call me lazy, but they are easy, especially in the hot humid south dressed in jeans and a T-Shirt 90% of the time.

Do I ever tote the 1911? You bet. In my youth I attended activities here and in Mississippi, Louisianna, Georgia, etc where a lot of cash was around. I always had it then. (Relax, the statute of limitations has run out) I sometimes carry it now, all depends.

 

[Eric F]

In my years in the fire department I have worked many shootings. I have seen a child shot in the head close enough that her eye brows were singed by the muzzle blast and the bullet(38 spl) went in and ran between the skin and the skull around to just above the era and stop. I have seen a man shot in the chest with a 22 short and was dead before he hit the ground. nothing is ever 100% but a lucky shot is exactly that lucky. A 25auto or a 32auto or imo even a 380 is just not reliable enough to depend on. The absolute smallest I would rely on is a 32 mag. and that is even questionable. 38spl eliminated the market for almost all 32's there is a reason they are not so common any more.

 

[42]

If i recall correctly the .25 berreta waspin was filed to make the gun hideable as parts but I could be wrong and interestingly do you know why he changed to the ppk?

Well some enterprising mann knowledgeable about firearms wrote to mr flemming and suggested the ppk as a better tool and he became Ian Flemming's firearms advisor, the man who issues bonds gun in rthe Dr. No film is named after Flemming's corrospondant.

And flemming used what he was used toa last ditch issue emergencyy weapon ass he would have carried explosives grenades and a smg sttyle weapon whilst in hostile territory, (berlin I believe for one mission) and probably a one shot welrod disposable.

See so all we have to do is write to an author correcting firearms bloopers and we may be thanked.

I'll be over at the bar with a martini and a mojito if you need me though I invite you to join me at the roulete wheel later.