Americans Killed in Iraq Mutilated and Desecrated

[warmi]

Happy Bob:

Look at the arm badge. It looks like Polish flag and the gun he is holding looks like a standard Polish battle rifle "beryl".

http://hem.passagen.se/dadkri/Beryl.htm

 

[Cool Hand Luke 22:36]

clubsoda22:

Exactly what i was thinking. Now bush will leave this mess for john kerry and kerry will catch the crap for it, just like daddy left somolia for clinton.

The events leading up to Klintoon's removing US forces from Somalia occurred in August-September 1993.

You are saying that after being in office for 9 months, Klintoon's failure to anticipate the Al-Queda attack on Americans in Somalia was the fault of the preceeding Administration.

So then by your logic the failure to prevent the 9/11 attacks by Al-Queda in NYC must have been the fault of the Klintoon Admin and not G.W. Bush, who was only in office for 9 months when they occurred.

Of course, the important difference is in the response to the Al-Queda attacks. Contrast Klintoon's feckless non-response/retreat, which Bin Laden cited as encouraging him to plan future attacks on Americans, with G.W. Bush's policy of taking the fight to the terrorists and thereby discouraging future attacks.

 

[Drjones]

No! Wait!

We just need to understand them!

This was all just a misunderstanding!

Islam is a peaceful religion, remember???

Understanding and harmony will find a solution to all of this!

Just take a class on tolerance and another to learn about how peaceful islam really is. The compassionate understanding you will gain in those courses will help you to see that more violence is not the answer!!!

Hey, where's the UN? Let's see what they have to say about this!

 

[Joe Demko]

Longeyes:

No one said kill 'em all.

ojibweindian:

Level the F***ING town. Kill every living being that cannot be immediately identified as an American, then raze the sh*t hole.

feedthehogs:

then you have to go in with the mentality of; if they kill one of ours, we kill a thousand of theirs.

warmi:

We cannot attempt to be civilized and fight a "clean" war against people who don't give a damn about any rules

The facts would appear to contradict your statement, Longeyes. I think you already know my answers to my own questions. I even took the time to answer yours. What exactly is a "golgoite?"

 

[Sean Smith]

Exactly what i was thinking. Now bush will leave this mess for john kerry and kerry will catch the crap for it, just like daddy left somolia for clinton.

Or like Clinton left the Al-Qaeda mess for Bush?

Oops!

Of course, Clinton radically changed the mission of the troops that Bush #1 sent to Somalia, with disatrous results. So his problem was of his own making, not Bush #1's. Certainly, Clinton's utter gutlessness following the Battle of Mogadishu was not Bush #1's fault.

On the other hand, Clinton's near-total inaction against Al-Qaeda for 8 years does rather dwarf anything Bush #2 did or didn't do in the 8 months preceeding 9/11.

But you knew that, right?

 

[Declaration Day]

Don't forget about all of the Iraqis who were on Saddam's payroll. Life was good for them- nice homes, nice cars, the best food, all at the expense of the impoverished citizens whom they terrorized. I am willing to bet that most of the Iraqis who don't want us around were among those ranks.

 

[Cosmoline]

Where's a thirty MM cannon when you need it?

 

[Paco]

Gentlemen, I too am shock as to what has happened to those people who got mutilated. I must say though, that some of what is being said here is very frightening and on-par with the same single-minded mentality and projected viciousness of our supposed "enemy". Lest we forget, the main religion of this country, Christianity has caused such blood flow as to make me ashamed of my religioin's heritage. Ofcourse, it's conveniently 'in the past' so we Americans don't allow ourselves to be weighted under that moral burden. The true enemy we fight here, is not a bunch of simple farmers, but the ideology spread by a few to infect the many. An attitude or idea can't be bombed or shot into oblivion. It must be undone or overshadowed by another greater ideology. If you think you can match hate for hate, violence for violence and expect that to solve the problem, then I would say to you that we have left the happy days of conventional warfare back in the dusty past. One can't force democracy-that is an act of hypocrasy. I would also like to point out: it's their country. Just because we think we have a right to go over and attack (and the US is divided deeply in this), that doesn't mean they should see eye to eye, especially when we've wipe out ALOT of the citizentry. Take the first gulf war, only 12 years ago, and this war and do the math. I don't like making it into a numbers game, but. Maybe they don't want democracy, maybe they're not ready, maybe it isn't the only way to run things. We, as a people, are very violent and the only thing that keeps us on the top is not moral superiority, but might. I love this country, am an avid gun owner (keep 'em at my father's in NJ), 2nd amend-god-given-right lover, I was in NYC when the planes struck and live here, and knew friends who died and all that stuff, but let's keep our wits about us. Golgo-13: right on. Stay strong for the rest of us.

-Paco

 

[Oleg Volk]

Islam is a peaceful religion, remember???

You might want to be just a little less sweeping in your sarcasm, given that this forum only exists through the efforts and the initiative of a Moslem man (who is, in addition, an American veteran, and has my respect and appreciation). Don't go off picking on a whole religion over the actions of a few nutcase adherents. All of the Moslems I know personally, support RKBA and other human rights, and none of them show a fraction of your intolerance for them.

 

[fix]

I agree Oleg, this is more of a regional problem than a religious one. Although I must admit, Derek and others like him do seem to be in the minority worldwide. My theory is simple, even though it is probably flawed. 90% of Muslims living in free countries seem to be good folks. So it is really an issue of the acceptance and appreciation of freedom that distinguishes "our" Muslims from the others.

 

[longeyes]

Paco

We, as a people, are very violent and the only thing that keeps us on the top is not moral superiority, but might.

I've heard this exact view from liberal friends. It's unfortunate that you don't see that our "moral superiority" resides in an adherence to reason, to trade, to law, to equity, to science, and to art that accounts for our dominance. As for our "might," that didn't come out of a vacuum; it arose from the particular attributes of our culture: efficient social organization, self-discipline, openness to ideas, technological prowess.

The next time you take your guns out, I suggest you consider where those weapons came from, how they came about, what they represent. Then think about the Second Amendment and ask yourself whether that qualifies as "moral superiority."

 

[Drjones]

Oleg and Derek:

Please accept my profuse and humble apologies if I have offended you.

I harbor absolutely no ill will towards islam nor any of its followers.

I tend to get a *little* concerned when followers of said religion declare jihad on me for no reason other than because I am not muslim.

That's when I tend to break out the big guns.

If its going to come down to a fight between islam and no islam, islam is going to lose.

That is how THEY are framing it, BTW, NOT me.

I make comments like what I made because, as fix pointed out, men like Derek and the ones that you know, Oleg, definitely seem to be in the minority.

 

[Oleg Volk]

I tend to get a *little* concerned when followers of said religion declare jihad on me for no reason other than because I am not muslim.

When someone declares a war on me or wages it sans declarations, their motivations are of little interest to me. Their location may be of interest for my arty buddies.

 

[longeyes]

It's a little more than a "regional problem." There's a reason why Orthodox Churches in Kosovo now have to be surrounded by barbed wire and NATO troops.

 

[El Rojo]

But your high-minded stance is, well, awfully self-serving, not to mention a tad naive. I'm not talking about suppositions. I suggest you pay attention to what your enemies are actually saying--about you, about yours, about your culture, about your nation. Then you will have a clearer, if less warm and coddly, view of what they have in mind for you. Let's not sentimentalize the horrors of what's really going on.

High minded stance? I think everyone in here is united in finding the people who are making these attacks and arresting them or if they resist, killing them. No one has proposed we give them a slap on the wrist and let things lie as they are. We are paying attention to what our enemies are saying about us. They don't like us. They never have and probably never will. However, what are the differences between what they have in mind for us and what many on this board have in mind for them? Absolutely nothing.

I am a firm believer in brutal, deadly violence. There should be no such thing as a fair fight. However, I am not in favor of killing whole cities. I am not in favor of slaughtering humans in pig guts and pig feces. I am not in favor of terrorizing civilians. There apears to be many "high roaders" on here that are mirroring the exact same attitudes our enemies have of us. So I have to ask what the difference is between the insurgents of Fallujah and many people here in the United States? It is the same hate, the same disrespect, and the same desire to kill and desecrate the norms of society. So much for the High Road.

 

[Paco]

El Rojo,

BINGO!

 

[Joe Demko]

Well said, El Rojo.

 

[Paco]

Longeyes,

Why must you stratify everything. Who cares if I'm a liberal, republican, muslim, or christian: all that should matter is that one is a part of this nation in a time of crisis. It's exactly that I understand the Constitution and the Bill of Rights that makes me quake at some of the commentary here. And besides, I'm being a patriot, as much as you or anyone, because I support and use the rights given to me by this country. Let's leave the supposed name-calling to the side, as though I should be deeply offended at being called a liberal. It's just a term, and a loose one at that. Some of the most gun-totin' folks I've met were Southern State liberals. So? What keeps me up at night is that we as a people are soooo divided in thought and now we are actually calling other Americans such things as communist or wanting to kick them out cause of religion. THIS will be the downfall of our way of life, not some bombs that kill people. Fear will do nicely. By the way, Shhhh... here's a secret: we aren't the only civilizied nation in the world, and there's no such thing as the 'most civilized' nation. That's between you and me.

-paco

 

[longeyes]

So I have to ask what the difference is between the insurgents of Fallujah and many people here in the United States?

No, El Rojo, you're exactly right, there is no difference between the crazed mobs of Fallujah and the people in this country who in self-defense would use the appropriate means to contain or destroy them. I'd say you and Paco have won today's bingo jackpot! Enjoy.

 

[Paco]

Therein lies the problem Longeyes: what is the 'appropriate' thing to do. I think all of us are in agreement that things need fixin'. By the way, believe it or not: I'm on the same side as you.

-American Paco

 

[longeyes]

Paco,

I'm not "stratifying" anything. I believe, as you do, in the Constitution and civil liberties. I also believe that we are at war and not just with "terror." Lines are being drawn over fundamental values, in this country and globally. My hope is our differences will be resolved peacefully, although, to be honest, I have my doubts.

No, we're not the only civilized nation, but if you value the right to keep and bear arms, with all that implies about free men in a free society, your list will be pretty damn short.

 

[longeyes]

Paco,

Well, we're on the same forum, that's a start. I don't question your motives or your patriotism. Let's not go there.

The appropriate thing to do, in my opinion, is to first get very clear about what it is that we believe in, here, in America, that is worth preserving, fighting for, and dying for. Which values, which principles, which beliefs. Then we can assess where and how those values are threatened, by whom, and what we need to do about it.

E pluribus unum.

 

[Paco]

You've set my mind at ease Longeyes. You said the 'P' word. That's all. I just wanted to know that you or any of the other "THR"'ers here are folk of reason that weight out all options and try to go with the best choice and reach it in a civil, efficient manner. I'm not being sarcastic either. A one track mind is a dangerous mind, sometimes for good, but mostly for bad when it comes to war. In my eyes, you are now three-dimensional again. I know my approval doesn't matter to you, but I thank you anyway. I don't care if anyone agrees here, all I care about is that Freedom loving Americans use reason, logic instead or instinct and emotion. There's a 'reason' we're above the animals. Peace.

-paco

 

[Sean Smith]

When someone declares a war on me or wages it sans declarations, their motivations are of little interest to me.

Actually, their motivations should be an object of great interest. We should make every effort to understand their underlying motives. But not so we can try to arrange a group hug with people who hate our guts. Rather, understanding your enemy allows you to defeat him more completely.

"Know the enemy and know yourself." - Sun Tzu

 

[longeyes]

Agree. THR is a great place. Ten thousand's a beginning. Remember Thermopylae.

Reason is the word. Our heritage is that of the Enlightenment. A good thing to remember.