Americans Killed in Iraq Mutilated and Desecrated

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I just want to thank ...

some of the people who posted after me, who really proved the point of my first post.

ojibweindian, feedthehogs, warmi ~ thanks for illustrating my point with such acidulous piquancy.

Golgo, Paco, Rojo ~ good job, guys. America needs voices such as yours.

DrJones ~ some of the folks calling for Americans to do the same, or worse, to Iraqi civilians, are self proclaimed Christians. Shall we blame their religion for their thick-headed inhumanity?

pax

Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. -- Nietzsche
 
I agree with Rojo for the most part.

One important difference between our troops and the terrorists is that our troops are not intentionally waging war on civilians and non-combatants and desecrating them or humiliating them, either alive or dead.

The terrorists have and continue to wage war against civilians and non-combatants. Such tactics are cowardly and repugnant to civilized people.

The call for levelling the village where this appalling behaviour occured is merely matching one disgusting action with another. This not the right decision.

However, strong action must be taken against this sort of barbaric behaviour. What that strong actions is probably left to the generals and people with more information on the situation than me.

-Jim
 
No, El Rojo, you're exactly right, there is no difference between the crazed mobs of Fallujah and the people in this country who in self-defense would use the appropriate means to contain or destroy them. I'd say you and Paco have won today's bingo jackpot! Enjoy.
I am having a really hard time following you. I think you are trying to refute something I have said, but your statements are so vague and unclear I am literally not understanding your point. Are you saying that the people of Fallujah are acting in self-defense? I guess I could go along with that. If some foreign army invaded my country, I might try to kill them too. So then the people of Fallujah are justified in killing American civilians who seek to opress them.

Then you make the comment that the people of Fallujah are using the appropriate means to contain and destroy them [I guess you mean Americans by them]. I guess here is where I disagree with you. Taking your enemies burnt bodies and dragging them through the streets, hanging them from highway bridges, and cutting them up with hoes and shovels does not appear to be a wise "containment" strategy to me. Yeah they got the destroy part right, but I don't see how the body dragging is furthering their cause for freedom.

However, you seem to think that this behavior is justified by the people of Fallujah and we need to counter it in our own way. So I guess we can look forward to killing some of the local Iraqi population here in America and then dragging their charred bodies through our streets, hanging them from highway bridges, and chopping them up with hand tools. Damn this is exciting! We are going to show those Iraqis who the top dog is. They will kneel at our feet and beg for forgiveness after we are done with them. All in the name of Democracy!

Any and all Iraqi people living in the Kern County area please contact me immediately so I can come committ barbaric acts against you! In this way you will end the war against your people early because they will realize after seeing me dragging your charred bodies through the streets of Bakersfield that I am a worthy opponent and the Iraqi people will lie down and cower at my feet. Oh wait, what is that you say? Oh, you are going to keep trying to kill me in the same way I kill you? Hmmm. That does throw a kink in my plans. I guess this war won't be over until one of us makes the other extinct. Oh well. FOR DEMOCRACY! Die Iraqi pigs! Jesus' Will Be Done!

Ok, back to reality. We need to establish some order in Iraq and then let them take care of themselves. However, to say we need to adopt the same strategy some of the Iraqis have towards Americans is absurd. That would be a great way to continue the process of killing and hate. If establishing order means going after these insurgents and killing them, that is fine by me. We do need to take care not to inflict harm upon innocent civilians and we must show that we seek to help their country, not occupy it and run it ourselves. This process is by no means easy and it will cost lives on both sides. I don't think we should pull out now, but I also think as soon as we can establish some peace, we ought to let them take care of themselves. The only problem is can our democratic style work in the Middle East? With only a bad example of leadership in the Iraqi people's memory do they have the ability to have effective representative government? I don't know. I do know we don't need to have a 51st state in Iraq. I also know we can't lead by example using the tactics that so many people on this board advocate. Yeah hunt down enemy soliders and capture or kill them. Drag their bodies through the streets or kill innocent civilians. Not a good example.
 
I am a firm believer in brutal, deadly violence. There should be no such thing as a fair fight. However, I am not in favor of killing whole cities. I am not in favor of slaughtering humans in pig guts and pig feces. I am not in favor of terrorizing civilians. There apears to be many "high roaders" on here that are mirroring the exact same attitudes our enemies have of us. So I have to ask what the difference is between the insurgents of Fallujah and many people here in the United States? It is the same hate, the same disrespect, and the same desire to kill and desecrate the norms of society. So much for the High Road.

El Rojo....

I hesitated putting this in quotes, but it was far enough back on the thread that I did it for clarity.

You ask what the difference is? Might it not be "who started what" as opposed to who is going to finish it? I say that similar or exact same actions may or may not be comparible depending on the stance and position of who started it.

And no, some things like the dragging of bodies and mutilating of bodies isn't justifiable, so don't mistake my meanings..;)

Ron
 
Antlurz, I disagree that "who started it" matters. Both the ends and the means must be justifiable, to the populations of our country and theirs, under the principles that both we and the ordinary, decent people in their country hold.
 
So the Iraqi insurgents started dragging bodies through the streets and cutting up bodies with garden tools. I guess we are justified in being the last ones to drag bodies through the streets and cut up their bodies with garden tools. Again, is that taking the High Road?

I am not advocating doing nothing. I am advocating meeting these threats with the level of force necessary to stop these actions. If that requires deadly force, blow them away! The more firepower the better. However, that doesn't mean we drag them through the streets, that doesn't mean we put their bodies in pig feces, that doesn't mean acting as barbaric as they do, that doesn't mean we target civilians. We must set the example of just behavior.

And I don't blame the insurgents of Iraq for trying to kill Americans. They are doing what they think is right. They think we are an invading army. I don't take it personal. That doesn't mean I wouldn't kill some Iraqi that was going to try to kill me or my buddies. That just means I am not going to drag his body through the streets and cut him up afterwards.

And no, some things like the dragging of bodies and mutilating of bodies isn't justifiable, so don't mistake my meanings. ;)
You edited that in!!! Based on that comment, we are in agreement. Terrorists started the war. Yes, we can finish it. I am not advocating a do nothing approach. I fully understand that force is power and who ever uses more force is going to win when it comes to combat. On 9/11, the only way to take back those planes was with violent, deadly force. There comes a stage where talking will not help. However, there is a time for talking and diplomatic means to an end. You can't use force all of the time. As you stated, you most certainly can't do barbaric acts and still claim a higher moral authority or purpose.
 
So the Iraqi insurgents started dragging bodies through the streets and cutting up bodies with garden tools. I guess we are justified in being the last ones to drag bodies through the streets and cut up their bodies with garden tools. Again, is that taking the High Road?

Nobody advocates senseless murder but there needs to be some sort of strong and meaningful response to this kind of savagery. Doing otherwise would simply send a wrong message . We need to understand that majority of these people couldn’t care less about our systems of laws and rules and would simply take a “strong statement of condemnation issued by the Allied Military Command†as sign of our weakness.

These teenagers jumping on the charred bodies are supposed to be their future leaders and people responsible for implementing democracy in that sorry place.
I do understand that , as far as Iraqi population goes, they are the minority but we cannot let this go unpunished for their actions will have a very negative influence on the rest of the population.
 
Rebel,

The four civilian contractors were...ahem...not "contractors in the construction sense." I suspect (pending positive ID) they were better qualified to do the escorting than most military personnel. I also suspect that there will be some serious payback coming.
 
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. -- Nietzsche
Alas, a quote born from the same pen that wrote "A daring and ruler race is building itself up.... The aim should be to prepare [the road] for a particularly strong kind of man, most highly gifted in intellect and will. This man and the elite around him will become the 'lords of the earth'."

Couldn't he follow his own advice? :confused:
 
The US had better extract a cost for this behavior or there will be more and worse.

Isn't this the same area where the 82nd Airborne left and Marines entered? If so, I wonder if this is the Sunni's way of demonstrating whose big and bad. Wonder what the Marines have in mind.

Any how, my comment remains the same. A cost for that behavior better be imposed or we won't see the end of it.
 
why does 'strong'= kill? A strong response doesn't mean necessarily to kill. How about accessing the situation and figuring out what's the best thing to do. Iknow, I know: that might take more than a minute; too much time passes and the iron will cool. You said that they don't care about our laws and have no regard for us yet you would 'educate' them with a 'strong' response. Does anyone believe shooting the folks responsible and otherwise making examples of them will help? IMHO, I believe you don't understand partisanship and mind-set of an invaded people. I do believe those folks responsible should be brought to justice and given a FAIR trial because that is what our Constitution and Bill of Rights says: that would be American. Call me old-fashion. Call the Constitution and BoR outdated but we must go thru due-process, or run the risk of becoming exactly what we are fighting against.

-paco

p.s. Pax:thanks for the shout-out. I'm fighting for air here!
 
How about ending infrastructure and services repair in Fallujah for a time being ?
Something that will make locals realize they have a stake in this process and indiscriminate killing and sabotage does carry some consequences.
The problem is not the insurgency itself but the fact that people in this city seem to be supporting it.
 
Heraclitus ~

"I shall never be ashamed of citing a bad author if the line is good." -- Montaigne. ;)

As for your parting question, obviously not. Most people can't.

pax

The only thing to do with advice is to give it away. It is never any use to oneself. -- Oscar Wilde
 
Warmi,

Your suggestion and assesment sound much more viable than the traditional 'strong' response. It gives the townsfolk a sense of empowerment and say in their future and that will do way more to do away with these crimes than any 'example-making'. Exhibit A: Vietnam. My uncle served three tours there as a lieutenant colonel and has some interesting viewpoints as to what is effective and what's not. Empowerment to the countryfolks at our hands has the potential to bridge the massive chasm of our different cultures: help them get themselves on their feet, and try even in the light of this atrocity, to be benevolent but firm. Ahh idealism! Good Luck US!

-paco
 
Careful in your thirst for the blood of others - you may end up spilling more of your own instead.

Those who committed the barbaric acts need to be found and liquidated. However, we must not indescriminately 'punish' the general population even if it is just the Sunnis in that region, just as we should not condem an entire people or region for the barbaric acts of a few.

We must not make the same mistake the Soviets did in Afghanistan - which eventually turned the entire population against them - when it was not so in the begining. Cechzechlovakia '42 and Ukraine late '42 are other lessons in what not to do.

Otherwise - we might as well pack up and leave - or even better - we should not have gong in there in the first place. Taking the High Road is the more difficult path, but it is also the more rewarding path. Or as the bible says' you reap what you sow.'
 
Antlurz ~

You ask what the difference is? Might it not be "who started what" as opposed to who is going to finish it?
If only it were that simple!

See, here's the problem: America is better than this. We don't drag hacked-up pieces of people's dead bodies through the streets, tearing off souvenir body parts. We don't desecrate dead bodies. That's not the way we do things.

There's a reason we don't do things that way, and it isn't because we don't sometimes feel like it (see the posts earlier in this thread for a good example). Everyone in the whole world sometimes has the urge (as Mencken pointed out) to hoist the black flag and commence slitting throats. So it is not a lack of desire.

Nor is it a lack of power. Hey, we're Americans. The world's superpower, right? We can do anything we durn well want to do, and the rest of the world really can't stop it. The best they can do is to whine about it over their cheese-tasting parties at UN conventions, and pass endless resolutions that have no power over us whatsoever. It isn't as though world opinion ever has or ever will hold us back from doing whatever we really want to do.

It isn't sheer wussiness, as some would like to claim. The fact is, back when Men Were Really Men, we still didn't do things like this. We didn't bash the brains out of other people's babies or urge our soldiers to do so on our behalf. We dropped bombs on civilian populations who were clustered around military objectives, but we followed it up with food, medical supplies, and humanitarian relief. We treated our prisoners of war with as much mercy and compassion as we were able, and sent them home healthier than they came to us. That is the proud record we share as Americans, a record few countries in the world can equal and none can better.

Of course, we messed up sometimes. Ask the villagers in Mai Lai what atrocities Americans are capable of! But those soldiers weren't lauded for their horrific acts; they were rightly condemned for going beyond the pale.

So why don't Americans do things like this? Why shouldn't we retaliate in kind? Why shouldn't we desecrate the bodies of the killers we kill? Why shouldn't we raze entire cities to pay for the actions of a few?

Because we're Americans, that's why not. Our heritage is worth more than that and our freedom is more precious than that. We're the Last Best Hope for human rights on this planet (who is doing better -- and which country inspires their attempts?). If the candle goes out here, it goes out everywhere, and for a long time to come.

It isn't enough to say, like a five year old caught giving his brother a bloody nose, "He started it!" It doesn't matter who started it. We're civilized, and we'll stay that way. We're human beings, not animals, and we won't fight like animals. We'll fight like men, and die like men if we must. But we won't stoop to that level.

So hunt down and kill the perpetrators. Wipe them out without mercy, without pity, and without remorse. But do not desecrate their bodies, do not slay their children, do not rape their women or pillage their homes. This isn't for their sake, but for ours. Because we're better than that. We're Americans, and we'll live and die by what America stands for.

pax

And man, whose heav’n-erected face
The smiles of love adorn,—
Man’s inhumanity to man
Makes countless thousands mourn!
-- Robert Burns
 
Hunt down those who were involved with this. Kill them in their sleep. When the town wakes up to find the perpetrators of this act lying in a pool of their own blood, I'm sure the message will be clear to any with thoughts of a personal jihad.

Holding an entire town responsible for the acts of a minority of radical individuals would be no more right than denying me my RKBA because some criminal shot somebody in my own town.
 
Great discussion! My solution is simple. Kill those involved in the slaying of the Americans. Plain and simple eloquent message. Don't get angry or spew venom. Just find them and kill them. \

Burying cowards in pig fat is a waste of good pig fat! By the by I have relatives who are Muslims. Remember to take people on a person by person basis! My .02 cents!
 
DrJones ~ some of the folks calling for Americans to do the same, or worse, to Iraqi civilians, are self proclaimed Christians. Shall we blame their religion for their thick-headed inhumanity?

Obvious counter:

Our "thick-headed inhumanity" consists of a few people getting mad and making some posts on this forum that sound mean, and other people condeming them for it.

Their "thick-headed inhumanity" consists of a bunch of people actually murdering people and mutilating their bodies, and a bunch of other people cheering them on.

Quite a gulf, eh? ;)

EDITED TO ADD: And for the sake of clarity, I consider the assorted ranting about mass retaliations pretty ridiculous. Killing people who don't need killing is counter-productive, ethics notwithstanding. The Nazis were great at killing lots of people, but bad at winning.
 
Sean ~
Their "thick-headed inhumanity" consists of a bunch of people actually murdering people and mutilating their bodies, and a bunch of other people cheering them on.
You cite "cheering them on" as being nearly as reprehensible as the disgusting act itself.

Is it, or isn't it?

pax

So let us be judgmental, for Heaven's sake! That equipment up between your ears, which was provided you by God, is there to make judgments. There are such things as good and evil. Think about them. There are such things as right and wrong. Think about them. If you do not make judgments about such matters, you are a moral blob, fit only for jobs which are better handled by robots. -- Jeff Cooper
 
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