No, not really Khe Sahn, that historical comparision would not hold up. I doubt the Iraqi's have anything like the numbers for a Khe Sahn style seige. More like those German units in Russia in WWII, that kept getting their supplys cut off by Russian partisains. The partisans never overran major German formations, but cut off beans and bullets at times, to such an extent as to make some large formations vitualy immoble, just at the time those formations were needed the most.
Why we're gonna lose in the long run
- Thread starter longrifleman
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w4rma
member
Fallujah: a ghost town where scared residents bury their dead in their yards
by Deborah Pasmantier
BAGHDAD, April 11 (AFP) - The battled-scarred Sunni bastion of Fallujah west of here became a ghost town where frightened residents lived like rats, fearing to venture out, and many were forced to bury their dead in their yards.
Refugees from the city described the days of fear before the ceasefire which was scheduled to come into force Sunday.
With US marines locked in nasty street fighting with wily rebels, residents were trapped indoors, a stadium has been transformed into a graveyard and bodies littering the streets are hastily moved in blankets.
"As soon as the Americans see a group of people in the streets, they shoot at them, people venture out only if their homes risk being bombarded or if they must carry the dead or wounded to the city's clinics," said Abbas Ibrahim, a 30-year-old Fallujah resident who was able to escape the city Friday.
"They put them in blankets and dart through the streets."
"When there are bodies in the streets, neighbors run to get them. The stadium has been turned into a graveyard, as the town cemetery lies outside the city," he added. "I saw people bury their dead in their yards because they feared to venture out."
Families were only able to leave the town from Friday, following the US marines' assault from Monday to flush out rebels responsible for last week's brutal murder of four US contractors.
"Fallujah is a ghost town, a battlefield," said a Red Crescent official, Mohammed Ibrahim Abbas, who was able to reach Fallujah's central district Thursday to deliver medical supplies.
"The streets were deserted, no cars, all the shops were closed, homes and stores bombarded," he added.
Some 2,000 marines taking part in Operation Vigilant Resolve rolled into the town Monday riding on tanks and armored vehicles through the southern industrial zone.
"Late Sunday, there were heavy bombings, the market was hit. When we woke up, we saw roads and two bridges blocked, tanks ringing the town, planes, US snipers," said Haitham Assad, a 20-year-old member of the para-military Iraqi Civil Defense Corps who reached Baghdad Thursday.
Since then fighting was non-stop in the outlying districts and in the industrial zone, but the center was still in rebel hands, according to the witnesses.
"Marines armed with machine-guns are taking up positions behind stores, on rooftops, in streets. The insurgents too," said Qussai Ali Hassen, another Red Crescent official who was caught in the cross-fire.
"The mujahedeen (Islamic fighters), aged 20 to 35 and armed with rocket propelled grenades and Kalashnikov assault rifles, are positioned around the US troops. They are trying to stop them from reaching the center. I saw hundreds of mujahedeen, some say thousands," said Abbas Ibrahim.
"When US soldiers are in trouble, they call for air support. There are also bombardments in the center. Several of my friends died in their homes," he added.
Fallujah's general hospital lies outside the town limits, so five small clinics have been turned into makeshift hospitals.
But they can treat only two dozen patients at a time and lack equipment.
Haitham Assad, who was injured in the leg and wrist, spent 48 hours there. "There were plenty of bodies lying on the floor," he said.
"The mujahedeen bring their wounded, who are treated along with civilians in miserable conditions," said Hassen, quoting local doctors.
"Surgeons lack anesthetics and post-surgery medication," said Mohammed Ibrahim Abbas of the Red Crescent.
More than 400 Iraqis have been killed and over 1,000 wounded during the fighting, according to an Iraqi official.
http://www.reliefweb.int/w/rwb.nsf/480fa8736b88bbc3c12564f6004c8ad5/0b3694b7d1beafc1c1256e73006baf82
Who is the enemy, now? Is this how to win hearts and minds and therefore the war (on terrorism?)?
by Deborah Pasmantier
BAGHDAD, April 11 (AFP) - The battled-scarred Sunni bastion of Fallujah west of here became a ghost town where frightened residents lived like rats, fearing to venture out, and many were forced to bury their dead in their yards.
Refugees from the city described the days of fear before the ceasefire which was scheduled to come into force Sunday.
With US marines locked in nasty street fighting with wily rebels, residents were trapped indoors, a stadium has been transformed into a graveyard and bodies littering the streets are hastily moved in blankets.
"As soon as the Americans see a group of people in the streets, they shoot at them, people venture out only if their homes risk being bombarded or if they must carry the dead or wounded to the city's clinics," said Abbas Ibrahim, a 30-year-old Fallujah resident who was able to escape the city Friday.
"They put them in blankets and dart through the streets."
"When there are bodies in the streets, neighbors run to get them. The stadium has been turned into a graveyard, as the town cemetery lies outside the city," he added. "I saw people bury their dead in their yards because they feared to venture out."
Families were only able to leave the town from Friday, following the US marines' assault from Monday to flush out rebels responsible for last week's brutal murder of four US contractors.
"Fallujah is a ghost town, a battlefield," said a Red Crescent official, Mohammed Ibrahim Abbas, who was able to reach Fallujah's central district Thursday to deliver medical supplies.
"The streets were deserted, no cars, all the shops were closed, homes and stores bombarded," he added.
Some 2,000 marines taking part in Operation Vigilant Resolve rolled into the town Monday riding on tanks and armored vehicles through the southern industrial zone.
"Late Sunday, there were heavy bombings, the market was hit. When we woke up, we saw roads and two bridges blocked, tanks ringing the town, planes, US snipers," said Haitham Assad, a 20-year-old member of the para-military Iraqi Civil Defense Corps who reached Baghdad Thursday.
Since then fighting was non-stop in the outlying districts and in the industrial zone, but the center was still in rebel hands, according to the witnesses.
"Marines armed with machine-guns are taking up positions behind stores, on rooftops, in streets. The insurgents too," said Qussai Ali Hassen, another Red Crescent official who was caught in the cross-fire.
"The mujahedeen (Islamic fighters), aged 20 to 35 and armed with rocket propelled grenades and Kalashnikov assault rifles, are positioned around the US troops. They are trying to stop them from reaching the center. I saw hundreds of mujahedeen, some say thousands," said Abbas Ibrahim.
"When US soldiers are in trouble, they call for air support. There are also bombardments in the center. Several of my friends died in their homes," he added.
Fallujah's general hospital lies outside the town limits, so five small clinics have been turned into makeshift hospitals.
But they can treat only two dozen patients at a time and lack equipment.
Haitham Assad, who was injured in the leg and wrist, spent 48 hours there. "There were plenty of bodies lying on the floor," he said.
"The mujahedeen bring their wounded, who are treated along with civilians in miserable conditions," said Hassen, quoting local doctors.
"Surgeons lack anesthetics and post-surgery medication," said Mohammed Ibrahim Abbas of the Red Crescent.
More than 400 Iraqis have been killed and over 1,000 wounded during the fighting, according to an Iraqi official.
http://www.reliefweb.int/w/rwb.nsf/480fa8736b88bbc3c12564f6004c8ad5/0b3694b7d1beafc1c1256e73006baf82
Who is the enemy, now? Is this how to win hearts and minds and therefore the war (on terrorism?)?
Tough! If the non combatant/civilian Iraqis in Faluja don't want to suffer the results of a Marine led cleanup then they ought to turn in the insurgents to the coalition forces. If they aren't willing to do that then by giving aid and comfort they're as much an insurgent as those carrying weapons.
Which begs the question if Islam is such a religion of peace like all the bleeding heart, politically correct left wing, cry babies say then why aren't islamic clerics denouncing this uprising in swarms instead of just the one who basically says gee guys play nice - it's ok to kill Americans just don't burn 'em up afterwards.
They're getting what they deserve. If the Iraqis want it to stop they know what they have to do. But they won't because they don't want the killing to stop - they like it - they're freaking barbarians so they get treated like freaking barbarians.
Which begs the question if Islam is such a religion of peace like all the bleeding heart, politically correct left wing, cry babies say then why aren't islamic clerics denouncing this uprising in swarms instead of just the one who basically says gee guys play nice - it's ok to kill Americans just don't burn 'em up afterwards.
They're getting what they deserve. If the Iraqis want it to stop they know what they have to do. But they won't because they don't want the killing to stop - they like it - they're freaking barbarians so they get treated like freaking barbarians.
w4rma
member
Werewolf, the tactics you support will destroy what's left of the "coalition".
US tactics tragic - UK officer
By Sean Rayment
London: Senior British commanders have condemned American military tactics in Iraq as heavy-handed and disproportionate.
One senior Army officer said that America's aggressive methods were causing friction among allied commanders and that there was a growing sense of "unease and frustration" among the British high command.
The officer, who agreed to the interview on the condition of anonymity, said part of the problem was that American troops viewed Iraqis as untermenschen - the Nazi expression for "sub-humans."
Speaking from his base in southern Iraq, the officer said: "My view and the view of the British chain of command is that the Americans' use of violence is not proportionate and is over-responsive to the threat they are facing.
"They don't see the Iraqi people the way we see them. They view them as untermenschen. They are not concerned about the Iraqi loss of life in the way the British are. Their attitude towards the Iraqis is tragic, it's awful.
…
http://www.gulf-news.com/Articles/Region2.asp?ArticleID=117591
US tactics tragic - UK officer
By Sean Rayment
London: Senior British commanders have condemned American military tactics in Iraq as heavy-handed and disproportionate.
One senior Army officer said that America's aggressive methods were causing friction among allied commanders and that there was a growing sense of "unease and frustration" among the British high command.
The officer, who agreed to the interview on the condition of anonymity, said part of the problem was that American troops viewed Iraqis as untermenschen - the Nazi expression for "sub-humans."
Speaking from his base in southern Iraq, the officer said: "My view and the view of the British chain of command is that the Americans' use of violence is not proportionate and is over-responsive to the threat they are facing.
"They don't see the Iraqi people the way we see them. They view them as untermenschen. They are not concerned about the Iraqi loss of life in the way the British are. Their attitude towards the Iraqis is tragic, it's awful.
…
http://www.gulf-news.com/Articles/Region2.asp?ArticleID=117591
7.62FullMetalJacket
Member
If you have them by the balls, their hearts and minds will soon follow.
"reliable sources"
Puhlease.
I wonder if the Brits would feel that way if they were responsible for the Sunni triangle instead of Basra?
IMO winning the hearts and minds of an islamist is impossible. Our cultures are just too different.
So what's the alternative - pacification until we turn the government over to whoever and leave.
Hell - if it were up to me we'd turn it over today and be gone with all our men and equipment as soon as possible thereafter.
Let 'em have a civil war - they'll be too busy killing each other to bother with us - at least for awhile anyway.
In the long run it is my firm belief that the west and east are in the first stages of a religious/culture war and the only possible resolution is the utter destruction of one or the other. Too bad the west is so ate up with playing nice that the eventual outcome will be the destruction of western civilization.
IMO winning the hearts and minds of an islamist is impossible. Our cultures are just too different.
So what's the alternative - pacification until we turn the government over to whoever and leave.
Hell - if it were up to me we'd turn it over today and be gone with all our men and equipment as soon as possible thereafter.
Let 'em have a civil war - they'll be too busy killing each other to bother with us - at least for awhile anyway.
In the long run it is my firm belief that the west and east are in the first stages of a religious/culture war and the only possible resolution is the utter destruction of one or the other. Too bad the west is so ate up with playing nice that the eventual outcome will be the destruction of western civilization.
w4rma
member
"The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers." Princess Leia to Governor Tarkin.
A quote from that leftist series, Star Wars.
7.62FullMetalJacket
Member
Touche
If I remember correctly, Carter turned his back and said let them have their civil war and Khomeini and the Terror Exporting Islamic Theocracy that is modern day Iran was the result. Just letting the Iraqi's have their little civil war is somewhat short sighted as we already know who the winner of that fight would be,
I'm not at all shocked that British officers would use a German term for subhuman...it sort of deflects the worlds attention away from terms like "Subject of her Majesty the Queens East India Company"...Which used to be the grander English phase used to describe third world subhumans.
Yeah, the Brit's have a lot of room to talk about taking over entire counties and draining them of their resources, while treating the natives like subhumans.
The Brit's treated more people like subhumans, that the Germans ever thought about on their best day. The East India Company starved more people than Hitler gassed.
I'm not at all shocked that British officers would use a German term for subhuman...it sort of deflects the worlds attention away from terms like "Subject of her Majesty the Queens East India Company"...Which used to be the grander English phase used to describe third world subhumans.
Yeah, the Brit's have a lot of room to talk about taking over entire counties and draining them of their resources, while treating the natives like subhumans.
The Brit's treated more people like subhumans, that the Germans ever thought about on their best day. The East India Company starved more people than Hitler gassed.
Poodleshooter
Member
Yeah.... that might just have something to do with them burning our contractors, then dancing around their flaming bodies, and subsequently hanging them from a bridge. Sorry, but the Iraqi people have almost expended our existing stock of loving kindness. You can only behave like brutal barbarians for so long before the desire to help just fades away.
I wouldn't say that we view them as the Nazi's viewed Jews. How about we view them more like, say... Brits viewed the Mahdi's "fuzzy wuzzies" at Omdurman?
That seems a more apt comparison.
labgrade
Member In Memoriam
Why we will lose in the long run is because we, as an entity, have lost sight of what our constitutional provisions entails, & it's got jack to do with anything "overseas."
It matters about here = what our constitutions says we can do, what it says we can't do (by omission) & what we should be about - the here & now.
We seem to be so occupied about "fixing" other folks' things & we have lost sight of our own soul - as a country.
We have trashed every aspect of our own bill of rights, while attempting to "provide" evryone else on earth these same "benifits of democracy."
It has all become a lie.
Since we do not cherish it, nor believe it in the first place, there is no way we can export it to any other country.
We have already lost it here & if such, why would anybody believe otherwise? That, & so much more.
& that is why we will lose.
Fact is, we've already lost. Just haven't sunk in yet, has it?
I couldn't be more sad.
It matters about here = what our constitutions says we can do, what it says we can't do (by omission) & what we should be about - the here & now.
We seem to be so occupied about "fixing" other folks' things & we have lost sight of our own soul - as a country.
We have trashed every aspect of our own bill of rights, while attempting to "provide" evryone else on earth these same "benifits of democracy."
It has all become a lie.
Since we do not cherish it, nor believe it in the first place, there is no way we can export it to any other country.
We have already lost it here & if such, why would anybody believe otherwise? That, & so much more.
& that is why we will lose.
Fact is, we've already lost. Just haven't sunk in yet, has it?
I couldn't be more sad.
The revolts in Iraq appear to have been planned in advance and pretty well coordinated. However, it does not seem terribly widespread. It does not appear there are that many Iraqi and foreign fighters overall.
Also, it seems the truces are more or less holding. It could be the resistance may have had enough for a while.
I was reading in the English version of al-Jazeera today that most of the Iraqis and others who were killed and wounded by US troops were from gunshot wounds with the inference that they were mostly hit by our snipers.
I doubt if our snipers are intentionally shooting women, children and the elderly unless they are participating in the fighting.
Also, it seems the truces are more or less holding. It could be the resistance may have had enough for a while.
I was reading in the English version of al-Jazeera today that most of the Iraqis and others who were killed and wounded by US troops were from gunshot wounds with the inference that they were mostly hit by our snipers.
I doubt if our snipers are intentionally shooting women, children and the elderly unless they are participating in the fighting.
What a tempting thought, Werewolf. It might be the thing to do, but then we risk having another Afghanistan.
It's like holding a wolf by the ears. You don't like it but you don't dare let it go. If we leave the country to its own devices, we may well find out later that we need to go back in. The American people will then righteously argue of the wastefullness of taking the hill twice.
Whether we were chasing WMD's or not, the fact remains that we are there, and we must do our best to give that nation a good chance to develop a government. In the end, its their country to win or lose. What I would like to see is the Iraqis start fighting for their own self government. That is the ultimate goal of everyone who has fought and died there, and in the end, what brings worth to their sacrifice.
greyhound
Member
I dunno, W4RMA, "reliefweb" and "gulfnews"? They don't sound to objective to me.
One of my main frustrations with the renewed heavy fighting is that I can't find any damn source that is free of left or right spin.:banghead:
Therefore I have no idea what is going on.
I am tired of hearing Iraqi's quoted as saying that Marines are deliberately slaughtering women and children (and not having it noted that there is no proof of the claims) and I am equally tired of hearing US officials saying "all is well" with no backup.
To a certain extent its been this way sine 10/7/01.
One of my main frustrations with the renewed heavy fighting is that I can't find any damn source that is free of left or right spin.:banghead:
Therefore I have no idea what is going on.
I am tired of hearing Iraqi's quoted as saying that Marines are deliberately slaughtering women and children (and not having it noted that there is no proof of the claims) and I am equally tired of hearing US officials saying "all is well" with no backup.
To a certain extent its been this way sine 10/7/01.
Gordon Fink
Member
We cannot leave Iraq for a very long time. Pulling our forces out now would contradict both our stated and unstated reasons for invading the country in the first place. We have shouldered the conqueror’s burden, and now we must bear it.
~G. Fink
~G. Fink
If I said that something that happened tomorrow in the Philippines was the fault of the US because of the Spanish-American War you'd rightfully tell me that it was over 100 years ago and Theodore Roosevelt and the rest are all long dead. Think about that.
Back on topic. Michael Howard leader of the Conservative Party suggested the other day that there should be a British person directly beneath Paul Bremer in order to maintain British input on post-war Iraq. Maybe he wants to score points off Blair somehow, or maybe it reflects concern over the way things are being handled.
bountyhunter
member
Absolutely. It certainly won't be because Bush stampeded into a war grossly underestimating the enemy's will to fight, alienated all the countries we needed as allies, had no actual plan to control the country once we were there, failed to perceive the lesson of Britain and Israel which is that a major military power can be held in a long grueling war of attrition by a small number of determined guerillas. It sure won't be for any of those irrelevant reasons.... it will be because people criticised Bush.
bountyhunter
member
OK, and now the bad news: it doesn't take many to terrorize and keep a country in turmoil for an extended period of time (IRA ring a bell?).
bountyhunter
member
And that's from our closest ally in the region.....I wonder what the Arab states think of our "assault on Fallujah"?
I'm with bountyhunter on this one. I also note that on this forum we are big in to taking responsibility, be it for an ND or another mistake. However, as soon as politics is brought in - EVERYTHING becomes the fault of the leftists. The first respondants on the thread about the legal challenge to Ohio CCW used the term 'leftist' about the woman concerned despite the thinnest of evidence. Nope, everything that has ever gone wrong ever is the fault of the left.
I know one or two 'leftists' who I admire despite political differences because they admit when they are wrong or have made a mistake. They also admit some of the failures of their ideology (or at least it's extreme form). Makes me think.
Is this part of the anonymous British officer's "The British response in Iraq has been much softer." approach to "attempt to win the hearts and minds of the people"??
"no formal complaints have as yet been made to their American counterparts" but I just want to whine to the media a little...Ok?
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