rock jock
Member
I certainly never advocated desecrating their dead bodies.
Afterall, a nuke doesn't leave much of a body to desecrate in the first place.
Americans Killed in Iraq Mutilated and Desecrated
- Thread starter mountain_cowboy
- Start date
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Afterall, a nuke doesn't leave much of a body to desecrate in the first place.
Against my better judgement I'm tossing my pennies into this thread.
Whilst going to international school overseas, I grew up reading about Averroes and Avicenna, Persian poetry and the battlefield courage of Saladin. I had Singaporean, Malay, and Pakistani friends. Over curry we'd discuss with my mostly European classmates the merits of cricket, the latest F1 stats, and compare our religions. The fact that I was Buddhist or my classmates Christian did not bring tumult or hate into our relatively quiet lives.
After I joined the service, I kept an evenhanded view of the American perspective vis-a-vis the Muslim perspective. After all, it is far too easy to descend into the realm of perjoratives and uninformed hatred. Being mindful of the Japanese-American experience of forced incarceration during the Second World War, I kept quiet. There is absolutely no reason to condemn an entire civilization for the errors of a few, and certainly no reason to brutalize anyone solely on the grounds of race or religion. This is what I thought, even after 9/11.
After crossing the Kuwaiti frontier in March 2003 and spending my first year in Iraq, I can say that everything I learned in my life before that was brought low. The brutality of these people against each other, even in the face of our onslaught, was sickening. The complete lack of honor amongst the Iraqi fighting men, the orgy of looting and destruction the Iraqi people visited upon their own schools, hospitals, and critical infrastructure made me despise them. I expected better. My grandfather's generation in Japan, would never have broken fighting the Americans, nor visited such chaos upon their homeland.
I expected an honorable enemy. For a year I waited for an enemy that would fight with true determination, like that of the NVA my uncles faced in Vietnam. None were forthcoming. So I went out and talked to the locals. Not that I had much problem in doing so, as the people all thought I was a Japanese soldier on loan from the UN (!) most of the time and had no difficulty in opening up, even with my sparse knowledge of the local language.
The same stories came out, over and over: How they wanted to be rich like the Japanese, how they wanted to rebuild, but how hopeless it seemed and how they lamented their own lack of patience. And then the undercurrents came out. The cult of the strongman, power won through guns and drugs, the feuding, the tacit acceptance of violence as the arbiter of every dispute. You don't like your neighbor? Throw a grenade at his sheep. You beat your wife so ditches you for another guy? Fire an RPG at her wedding. Bored and have nothing better to do? Get really drunk and fire an AK at your nieghbor's house. All of that happened on my watch, and more.
I came to the following conclusion: This is a thousand year war. The chasm between the West and the Mideast is over a millennia old. The savagery of the way of life in Iraq today is not going to vanish thanks to some cosmetic diktat. Only difference is that the extremists have enough military technology and the Western nations are so open that for them to strike us is like trying to tag a parked UPS truck with a snowball at five yards or less. Whoever thought that Iraq was going to submit like Germany or Japan was nuts to begin with. One was a Western nation to begin with, the other had a martial tradition that encapsuled rational submission to victors.
We may never, ever see the Iraqis break the cycle of violence within our lifetimes. The way I see it, the only we do now is by being there, we keep as many of the bad guys tied up over there as humanly possible. The more insurgents we clip, that's once less terrorist who is going to come stateside. After 9/11, it should be clear that they're going to keep on coming, no matter what. For me, keeping them away from American shores is good enough. I would rather fight the Iraqi insurgents and their foreign mujahid allies over there, not at home.
I would like to talk about values, and culture, and civilization at depth, but when I think of what it was like over there I can't even begin to say any more without feeling like an idiot. Somehow, somewhere, this all became us vs them, a fight to the death, where only one civilization and its way of life is going to walk away from it. Somehow, I don't think that there's any urgency in the general public here stateside about it.
That doesn't matter to me. All I want to do is go back to theater. And if I get to smoke a few insurgents, like the ones that we're talking about in this thread, I'll consider it all worth the effort.
Peace out.
Whilst going to international school overseas, I grew up reading about Averroes and Avicenna, Persian poetry and the battlefield courage of Saladin. I had Singaporean, Malay, and Pakistani friends. Over curry we'd discuss with my mostly European classmates the merits of cricket, the latest F1 stats, and compare our religions. The fact that I was Buddhist or my classmates Christian did not bring tumult or hate into our relatively quiet lives.
After I joined the service, I kept an evenhanded view of the American perspective vis-a-vis the Muslim perspective. After all, it is far too easy to descend into the realm of perjoratives and uninformed hatred. Being mindful of the Japanese-American experience of forced incarceration during the Second World War, I kept quiet. There is absolutely no reason to condemn an entire civilization for the errors of a few, and certainly no reason to brutalize anyone solely on the grounds of race or religion. This is what I thought, even after 9/11.
After crossing the Kuwaiti frontier in March 2003 and spending my first year in Iraq, I can say that everything I learned in my life before that was brought low. The brutality of these people against each other, even in the face of our onslaught, was sickening. The complete lack of honor amongst the Iraqi fighting men, the orgy of looting and destruction the Iraqi people visited upon their own schools, hospitals, and critical infrastructure made me despise them. I expected better. My grandfather's generation in Japan, would never have broken fighting the Americans, nor visited such chaos upon their homeland.
I expected an honorable enemy. For a year I waited for an enemy that would fight with true determination, like that of the NVA my uncles faced in Vietnam. None were forthcoming. So I went out and talked to the locals. Not that I had much problem in doing so, as the people all thought I was a Japanese soldier on loan from the UN (!) most of the time and had no difficulty in opening up, even with my sparse knowledge of the local language.
The same stories came out, over and over: How they wanted to be rich like the Japanese, how they wanted to rebuild, but how hopeless it seemed and how they lamented their own lack of patience. And then the undercurrents came out. The cult of the strongman, power won through guns and drugs, the feuding, the tacit acceptance of violence as the arbiter of every dispute. You don't like your neighbor? Throw a grenade at his sheep. You beat your wife so ditches you for another guy? Fire an RPG at her wedding. Bored and have nothing better to do? Get really drunk and fire an AK at your nieghbor's house. All of that happened on my watch, and more.
I came to the following conclusion: This is a thousand year war. The chasm between the West and the Mideast is over a millennia old. The savagery of the way of life in Iraq today is not going to vanish thanks to some cosmetic diktat. Only difference is that the extremists have enough military technology and the Western nations are so open that for them to strike us is like trying to tag a parked UPS truck with a snowball at five yards or less. Whoever thought that Iraq was going to submit like Germany or Japan was nuts to begin with. One was a Western nation to begin with, the other had a martial tradition that encapsuled rational submission to victors.
We may never, ever see the Iraqis break the cycle of violence within our lifetimes. The way I see it, the only we do now is by being there, we keep as many of the bad guys tied up over there as humanly possible. The more insurgents we clip, that's once less terrorist who is going to come stateside. After 9/11, it should be clear that they're going to keep on coming, no matter what. For me, keeping them away from American shores is good enough. I would rather fight the Iraqi insurgents and their foreign mujahid allies over there, not at home.
I would like to talk about values, and culture, and civilization at depth, but when I think of what it was like over there I can't even begin to say any more without feeling like an idiot. Somehow, somewhere, this all became us vs them, a fight to the death, where only one civilization and its way of life is going to walk away from it. Somehow, I don't think that there's any urgency in the general public here stateside about it.
That doesn't matter to me. All I want to do is go back to theater. And if I get to smoke a few insurgents, like the ones that we're talking about in this thread, I'll consider it all worth the effort.
Peace out.
hapafish ~
Thanks for posting that. And thank you for serving.
pax
The three greatest scourges of the 20th century Nazism, Japanese militarism, and Soviet Communism were defeated through war or continued military resistance. More were killed by Hitler, Stalin, and Mao outside of combat than died in World Wars I and II. War, as Sherman said, is all hell, but as Heraclitus admitted it is also "the father of us all." Wickedness whether chattel slavery, the gas chambers, or concentration camps has rarely passed quietly into the night on its own. The present evil isn't going to, either. -- Victor David Hanson
Thanks for posting that. And thank you for serving.
pax
The three greatest scourges of the 20th century Nazism, Japanese militarism, and Soviet Communism were defeated through war or continued military resistance. More were killed by Hitler, Stalin, and Mao outside of combat than died in World Wars I and II. War, as Sherman said, is all hell, but as Heraclitus admitted it is also "the father of us all." Wickedness whether chattel slavery, the gas chambers, or concentration camps has rarely passed quietly into the night on its own. The present evil isn't going to, either. -- Victor David Hanson
feedthehogs
Member
- Joined
- Jan 8, 2003
- Messages
- 1,801
Pax,
You’re trying to think and reason in conventional wisdom, which does not apply here.
These are people who are willing to use men, women and children to be human bombs that kill.
Its easy to sit back with a pacifist view if you never saw one of your buddies try and give some candy to a kid to make them feel good and that kid releases the handle on a grenade and blows the both of them to bits because they were taught by an older person who was too cowardly to do the deed themselves that US soldiers are evil.
They are not fighting to win or to keep from being killed they are fighting to die and kill as many people with them.
You’re trying to think and reason in conventional wisdom, which does not apply here.
These are people who are willing to use men, women and children to be human bombs that kill.
Its easy to sit back with a pacifist view if you never saw one of your buddies try and give some candy to a kid to make them feel good and that kid releases the handle on a grenade and blows the both of them to bits because they were taught by an older person who was too cowardly to do the deed themselves that US soldiers are evil.
They are not fighting to win or to keep from being killed they are fighting to die and kill as many people with them.
Brian Dale
Member
Thank You for posting, hapafish, but more than that, Thank You for serving. Please permit one you're protecting here, Stateside, to tell you that we're proud of you.
Paco said
Paco, Paco, Paco.......
I'll give you a pass because you're still young and idealistic, BUT- you need to understand that the U.S. Constitution applies ONLY to U.S. citizens. How's that for a novel concept?!
The fact is WE ARE AT WAR WITH ISLAMIC TERRORISM. War is not handled by the criminal justice system. The correct response to war is to meet your enemy with overwhelming force and destroy him. That means we kill them before they kill us. We cannot, and we should not, seek "permission slips" from the U.N., the 'World Court', or any other "intenational consensus" bureau before we move to defend ourselves.
We Americans are for the most part, fat, dumb, happy, and insulated from the brutal realities of the real evil that exists in this world. 9/11 is not the first time we have been caught napping, and it won't be the last. If our .gov continues to acquiesce to the appeasement crowd, the body count will resume on American soil. I'm wondering how many dead American civilians it will take for us to get the message. 10, 000? 50,000? 100,000? What is the number?
Paco, Paco, Paco.......
I'll give you a pass because you're still young and idealistic, BUT- you need to understand that the U.S. Constitution applies ONLY to U.S. citizens. How's that for a novel concept?!
The fact is WE ARE AT WAR WITH ISLAMIC TERRORISM. War is not handled by the criminal justice system.
The correct response to war is to meet your enemy with overwhelming force and destroy him. That means we kill them before they kill us. We cannot, and we should not, seek "permission slips" from the U.N., the 'World Court', or any other "intenational consensus" bureau before we move to defend ourselves. We Americans are for the most part, fat, dumb, happy, and insulated from the brutal realities of the real evil that exists in this world. 9/11 is not the first time we have been caught napping, and it won't be the last. If our .gov continues to acquiesce to the appeasement crowd, the body count will resume on American soil. I'm wondering how many dead American civilians it will take for us to get the message. 10, 000? 50,000? 100,000? What is the number?
feedthehogs,
Thing is, the current enemy is always the Most Evil Enemy The World Has Ever Seen.
I am no pacifist. While I had my doubts about this war before it started, I absolutely believe we should stay the course and do what needs to be done. There is no room for half-measures, for negotiated withdrawals, for nondecisive nonvictories. Now that we're there, we must win overwhelmingly.
Perhaps arguing that we should retain our humanity while doing so is too conventional or too conservative for folks who want to become just like the scum we are fighting. That's too bad. I don't want my soldiers to return to America as baby-killers or worse. I want them to return with their heads held high with American pride. I want them to bask in parades, cheering crowds, and all the worship a grateful nation can heap upon them.
And I want them to deserve it.
pax
Inhumanitas omni aetate molesta est. -- Cicero
Thing is, the current enemy is always the Most Evil Enemy The World Has Ever Seen.
I am no pacifist. While I had my doubts about this war before it started, I absolutely believe we should stay the course and do what needs to be done. There is no room for half-measures, for negotiated withdrawals, for nondecisive nonvictories. Now that we're there, we must win overwhelmingly.
Perhaps arguing that we should retain our humanity while doing so is too conventional or too conservative for folks who want to become just like the scum we are fighting. That's too bad. I don't want my soldiers to return to America as baby-killers or worse. I want them to return with their heads held high with American pride. I want them to bask in parades, cheering crowds, and all the worship a grateful nation can heap upon them.
And I want them to deserve it.
pax
Inhumanitas omni aetate molesta est. -- Cicero
Sean Smith
Member
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2002
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- 4,925
No. That's an assumption on your part. It is, however, more reprehensible than making disgruntled posts on THR.
Sean Smith
Member
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2002
- Messages
- 4,925
I think that pretty much says it all. The failed societies that produce these terrorists are more backward, self-deluded and depraved that most Americans are even capable of grasping. Forget the terrorists for a second, and look at what they come from. Platitudes about how all cultures have equal merit and so forth are pure bull once you've seen them firsthand. That doesn't mean that American society and culture is the only right answer; quite the opposite. That just means that there are definitely wrong answers out there. The Middle East is full of them... abject failures passing themselves off as countries, with unmerited pride in their backward, brutal institutions, fueled by self-pity and reflexive, unthinking hate... mostly of us and the Jews.
Blinding Glimpse of the Obvious: Millions in the Middle East want all Americans and Jews to die, even if they personally don't want to do anything about it themselves. That doesn't mean we should nuke them all, but it is something to be borne in mind when contemplating making nice with them over tea and crumpets.
I think that is something that people need to come to grips with if they want to have the slightest clue about what is going on.
Impossible. Islam is a religion of peace. These news reports are the product of a consiracy between the imperialist/zionist American criminal President and the decadent, unbelievers of the American media.
Well at least I got that very last part right.
All we really have to do is wait. The people mutiliating the corpses are Sunni muslims, about 20% of Iraq's population and the top dogs under Saddam. When we turn things over to the "government" of Iraq those people will no doubt be ethnically cleansed by the majority Shi'a. Their bodies will probably be mutiliated too. The irony here is that the people most likely to ensure the safety of these Sunnis are the very people they are enraging right now. Us. Living well really is the best revenge.
Just like Somalia and Afghanistan, what the Iraqis really want is to be left alone so they can get back to the important business of slaughtering each other. That's tribalism. The Arabs will never amount to much until they can overcome it. We can't change it. Only they can; and most don't want to.
As I see it the point of the Afghan and Iraqi wars was not to bring democracy to people who wouldn't know what to do with a representative republic if it threw up on them. The point was to send a message to the tyrants and despots who make up the pinnacle of Arab "civilization" that their support of the enemies of the US (not to mention attempts to assassinate former US presidents) will result in their personal discomfort. Saddam is in prison, probably soon to be executed, and Mullah Omar is squatting in remote mountain huts with his buddy OBL, moving every few hours to avoid the Predators. It's GOOD to be the King, right?
This message was not lost upon the dictators of Libya, Jordan, and Syria, or the weirdbeards running Iran. They will be held personally responsible for the actions of their governments, at least until Kerry is elected.
Well at least I got that very last part right.
All we really have to do is wait. The people mutiliating the corpses are Sunni muslims, about 20% of Iraq's population and the top dogs under Saddam. When we turn things over to the "government" of Iraq those people will no doubt be ethnically cleansed by the majority Shi'a. Their bodies will probably be mutiliated too. The irony here is that the people most likely to ensure the safety of these Sunnis are the very people they are enraging right now. Us. Living well really is the best revenge.
Just like Somalia and Afghanistan, what the Iraqis really want is to be left alone so they can get back to the important business of slaughtering each other. That's tribalism. The Arabs will never amount to much until they can overcome it. We can't change it. Only they can; and most don't want to.
As I see it the point of the Afghan and Iraqi wars was not to bring democracy to people who wouldn't know what to do with a representative republic if it threw up on them. The point was to send a message to the tyrants and despots who make up the pinnacle of Arab "civilization" that their support of the enemies of the US (not to mention attempts to assassinate former US presidents) will result in their personal discomfort. Saddam is in prison, probably soon to be executed, and Mullah Omar is squatting in remote mountain huts with his buddy OBL, moving every few hours to avoid the Predators. It's GOOD to be the King, right?
This message was not lost upon the dictators of Libya, Jordan, and Syria, or the weirdbeards running Iran. They will be held personally responsible for the actions of their governments, at least until Kerry is elected.
Sean ~
Sure. But you know that cheering on such acts is evil too -- or you wouldn't have cited it in your post as an additional reason to condemn the atrocities.
The posts above which urge us to throw away our humanity and become like the people we loathe either mean something, or they do not.
If they mean nothing, we can ignore them. But in a democracy, the most dangerous assumption a good person can make is that the voices around him mean nothing at all.
pax
Etiam capillus unus habet umbram. (Even one hair has a shadow.) -- Publilius Syrus
Sure. But you know that cheering on such acts is evil too -- or you wouldn't have cited it in your post as an additional reason to condemn the atrocities.
The posts above which urge us to throw away our humanity and become like the people we loathe either mean something, or they do not.
If they mean nothing, we can ignore them. But in a democracy, the most dangerous assumption a good person can make is that the voices around him mean nothing at all.
pax
Etiam capillus unus habet umbram. (Even one hair has a shadow.) -- Publilius Syrus
Sean Smith
Member
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2002
- Messages
- 4,925
And you were the one who equated posts on this forum with actually going out and mutilating corpses.
But I think us arguing is silly, insofar as neither one of us has advocated indiscriminate nuking of a-rabs.
Brian Dale
Member
All right, play nice. 
Set an example.
Set an example.Sean ~
You misread.
My exact words were: "The impulse to do this sort of thing to the enemy exists in every one of us." And I cited the posts here as proof of that very thing.
Have you seen anything on this thread that would indicate otherwise?
pax
We seem to have a compulsion these days to bury time capsules in order to give those people living in the next century or so some idea of what we are like. I have prepared one of my own. I have placed some rather large samples of dynamite, gunpowder, and nitroglycerin. My time capsule is set to go off in the year 3000. It will show them what we are really like. -- Alfred Hitchcock
You misread.
My exact words were: "The impulse to do this sort of thing to the enemy exists in every one of us." And I cited the posts here as proof of that very thing.
Have you seen anything on this thread that would indicate otherwise?
pax
We seem to have a compulsion these days to bury time capsules in order to give those people living in the next century or so some idea of what we are like. I have prepared one of my own. I have placed some rather large samples of dynamite, gunpowder, and nitroglycerin. My time capsule is set to go off in the year 3000. It will show them what we are really like. -- Alfred Hitchcock
um RileyMC, my age has absolutely ZERO to do with my beliefs. It's called 'rational judgement' not to say that yours isn't but please don't attempt to dilute my argurment with the very patronizing patt on the head by my elders...
The Constitution and BoR apply others in the world because they help dictate OUR ACTIONS. You're right in saying that our laws don't apply intrisically to them but they do apply to them through the contact they have with us. We give them a fair trial not because they're Americans, but because we're Americans. As for the whole 'kill the enemy off' bit: sounds way too much like Hitler and killing off the Evil Religion/Race: Jews. Don't let us stoop to a religion war/race war or try to dehumanize them to make killing them easier. "They're evil, they're backwards, they sub-human" blah, blah, blah. Again, very Reich. Like someone else said, going the Highroad is harder but our soldiers and the American people will be able to hold their heads up high at the end of the day. We should only put the lives of our soldiers in a situation that WE would be determined to see through-morally speaking- and that means ONLY to destroy the opposition, not the people.
-paco
The Constitution and BoR apply others in the world because they help dictate OUR ACTIONS. You're right in saying that our laws don't apply intrisically to them but they do apply to them through the contact they have with us. We give them a fair trial not because they're Americans, but because we're Americans. As for the whole 'kill the enemy off' bit: sounds way too much like Hitler and killing off the Evil Religion/Race: Jews. Don't let us stoop to a religion war/race war or try to dehumanize them to make killing them easier. "They're evil, they're backwards, they sub-human" blah, blah, blah. Again, very Reich. Like someone else said, going the Highroad is harder but our soldiers and the American people will be able to hold their heads up high at the end of the day. We should only put the lives of our soldiers in a situation that WE would be determined to see through-morally speaking- and that means ONLY to destroy the opposition, not the people.
-paco
Waitone
Member
Civilization has always been a thin, fragile veneer on human savagery. During time of war the veneer is thinner and more fragile. As best we try to keep it in tact it will at times tear. We as a society will pursue those responsible and exact justice. War in general will tear the veneer despite our best efforts.
Then there is asymetric warfare which is the nature of the war we fight against islamofascist terrormongers. Asymetric warfare is a tactic designed to use one side's overwhelming strength against itself. It involves tactics "civilized" societies refuse to officially take. It causes the veneer of civilization to become even thinner to the point of disappearing. And it will disappear completely when the opposition continues to make war on those we refuse to make war on. When the opposition blows up malls and schools, and theme parks, and sporting events; sooner or later the public will demand to know what advantages accrue to us for playing the good target while we chase ghosts. At that point there will be a failure of civilization and the full horror of a technological war machine will be apparent to all.
I don't like the picture I just painted but my abiding belief in human nature forces me to conclude we (Americans) are morally capable of inflicting horrendous damage on a foe. We may think we are better than others but the fact of the matter is our veneer is only marginally thicker than those we battle.
Moral Equivelence? Nope! Just human nature. Are we at that point today? Not hardly. It will take the loss of a city or catastrophic loss of children. Barbarism we saw today is merely a graphic picture of the nature of this war. Get used to it.
Then there is asymetric warfare which is the nature of the war we fight against islamofascist terrormongers. Asymetric warfare is a tactic designed to use one side's overwhelming strength against itself. It involves tactics "civilized" societies refuse to officially take. It causes the veneer of civilization to become even thinner to the point of disappearing. And it will disappear completely when the opposition continues to make war on those we refuse to make war on. When the opposition blows up malls and schools, and theme parks, and sporting events; sooner or later the public will demand to know what advantages accrue to us for playing the good target while we chase ghosts. At that point there will be a failure of civilization and the full horror of a technological war machine will be apparent to all.
I don't like the picture I just painted but my abiding belief in human nature forces me to conclude we (Americans) are morally capable of inflicting horrendous damage on a foe. We may think we are better than others but the fact of the matter is our veneer is only marginally thicker than those we battle.
Moral Equivelence? Nope! Just human nature. Are we at that point today? Not hardly. It will take the loss of a city or catastrophic loss of children. Barbarism we saw today is merely a graphic picture of the nature of this war. Get used to it.
Brian Dale
Member
Waitone,
That's the reason to keep up the hard work of maintaining it.
Powderman
Member
I saw the pictures, and they made me physically ill. Not because people died--there is a war going on, and some will pay the price for that war.
Death in combat, honorably fought, is to be expected. But, this goes beyond the deaths of these Americans. This is a direct slap, spit-in-the-face challenge.
I have the perfect solution.
These people thought they saw shock and awe before? Tell the B52's to fire up. These murderers need a good old-fashioned air raid, to the same intensity as Schweinfurt and Dresden during WWII.
And, if after that occurs, more mutilations and atrocities take place, then special attention is in order.
A W80 gravity bomb, set for about 25-30 KT, at 2500 feet AGL will do nicely.
Moral of the story:
If you want to be an animal, prepare to have the leash strapped around your neck.
Death in combat, honorably fought, is to be expected. But, this goes beyond the deaths of these Americans. This is a direct slap, spit-in-the-face challenge.
I have the perfect solution.
These people thought they saw shock and awe before? Tell the B52's to fire up. These murderers need a good old-fashioned air raid, to the same intensity as Schweinfurt and Dresden during WWII.
And, if after that occurs, more mutilations and atrocities take place, then special attention is in order.
A W80 gravity bomb, set for about 25-30 KT, at 2500 feet AGL will do nicely.
Moral of the story:
If you want to be an animal, prepare to have the leash strapped around your neck.
longeyes
member
I see things are jumpin' while I was away.
For the record, I never advocated, at any time, committing atrocities or punishing all for the crimes of a few. Did anyone? So much for straw men.
I too believe in the advance of civilization and keeping to human standards. I also believe in garbage removal.
For the record, I never advocated, at any time, committing atrocities or punishing all for the crimes of a few. Did anyone? So much for straw men.
I too believe in the advance of civilization and keeping to human standards. I also believe in garbage removal.
Joe Demko
Member
Do I have to post quotes from this very thread for you again?
longeyes
member
Golgo,
I was referring to my own posts.
I'll admit I do find the unction about the desire for payback a bit much. From where I sit America's current problem is too little righteous anger, not too much. Will history reward us for our restraint? Well, that depends on who's left to write the history books and whether they're written in English or Arabic.
I was referring to my own posts.
I'll admit I do find the unction about the desire for payback a bit much. From where I sit America's current problem is too little righteous anger, not too much. Will history reward us for our restraint? Well, that depends on who's left to write the history books and whether they're written in English or Arabic.
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