Americans Killed in Iraq Mutilated and Desecrated

[pax]

I don't see many Mullahs or Muslims condemning these atrocities. Guilt by omission may be as bad as guilt by commision.

Capt Nemo ~

Marko Kloos' post at http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=193009#post193009 should lay that canard to rest.

pax

All languages carry in them a portrait of their users and the idioms of every language say over and over again, 'He is a stranger and therefore a barbarian.' ... It is the only joke that God ever repeats, because its humor never grows stale. -- Robert A. Heinlein

 

[hapafish]

-paco

We knew Japan was tetering and getting ready to push its civies into the last desperate act of trading their lives for as many American soldiers as possible. This is a bit different. No bomb can solve this.

On the contrary, I don't believe this is any different. The enemy won't yield an inch. They think this is a continuation of the Crusades our part, and they are perfectly willing to throw themselves at us forever, until the Judeo-Christian civilization they so despise is eradicated. I've listened to enough of their crap. In Al Hillah it was "Jews bad, Jews bad" and they had some choice words for some of my African-American friends. In Ash Shurah it was "Islam good, Christians bad" and this was coming from the damn Iraqi cops. In Hamman Ali they had enough contempt for us to throw translated extremist literature to us for "understanding" ... stuff which clearly stated "If you are not Muslim you are going to Hell." I'm not advocating indiscriminate use of nuclear weapons. My point in bringing that up was to tell the people who believe that America is "so much better than hurting innocents" that there have been times that it has been necessary for the nation to do precisely that to survive. If the nation can commit to the "ultimate acts of inhumanity" in Hiroshima and Nagasaki and thus preserve a generation of American fighting men from slaughter and the entire Japanese nation from extinction, then how in hindsight can anyone say there was any reasonable alternative? We don't have to use nuclear weapons, but the victory must be just as shocking, just as through, just as final.

-paco

Honestly I don't know what will except that I disagree about the whole pulling out thing and becoming weak thus easy pickings. After we pulled outta Vietnam, no nations came to our door to pick a fight. We smacked Iraq around in the first Gulf War and in the Desert Storm broke some military records as to how fast we got to their capital. AND we caught their leader. I highly doubt if we pulled out we would be considered cowards. We're the only super power left on the earth and I don't think that a group of nations could take us down.

No, we showed in Vietnam that with our hands tied behind our backs, we could be persuaded to quit the field and abandon our POWs to the communists. We hit Iraq hard in the First Gulf War but left the job unfinished, even with a much larger Allied force and a mandate that could have let us and the world do a far better job of the peacekeeping mess we're stuck in now. In the Second Gulf War we broke records on how quickly we shattered the Iraqi military, but we let their troops take their weapons with them and melt into the population to pursue this insurgency. I seriously doubt if we pulled out and the world witnessed Iraq become a charnel house that we would NOT be considered savages who came just for the oil, got what they wanted, and were ousted by "victorious mujahideen" as befits such "infidels." Hit enough of us, and we will leave - just like in Vietnam, or Somalia - that is the wrong message to send. I don't consider your uncle, or my uncles, cowards for leaving Vietnam when ordered, and I said no such thing. I still believe in the courage of the American fighting man - far better men than I who I have the honor to work for. However, war is a total effort, and the resolve of the people and the government is what counts. Pulling out is no viable option as things stand now. Failure to keep a promise to rebuild Iraq makes every future nation-building effort on our part suspect. Failure to pacify Iraq leaves one of the world's largest oil-producing nations a smoking humanitarian disaster. If this is what a "superpower" does, then America needs to take lessons from the Romans or the Mongols. Even that would be better.

-paco

Anycase, now that we've got lots of folks going back-n-forth on this, what would you SPECIFICALLY do to end this? Seriously, if your were the man or woman in power, what would you do specifically?

In all seriousness, I would like to see us first of all take a through census of the areas we control. We don't know who is living where, or what sort of population movements there are out there. Relying on the Iraqi cops to help us out is probably a really bad idea; the guys I saw in several towns were useless, lazy, and made me think of the ARVNs. Cowards wouldn't go out at night without us to hold their hand, or more correctly, "push them in the right direction." We should also go for total disarmament of the entire populace. No rational reason why we should let "every household" have automatic weapons, especially since they shoot them off everywhere with no regard for public safety. Martial law, and 100% curfews after sundown. No one should have any business outside after dark. We cut a deal wherever possible with the peshmerga and cooperative local militias to take the load off of our guys on patrols and site security. We can achieve our objectives, so long as we're allowed to be aggressive enough in large enough numbers. Note that I don't advocate unilateral pullout, on the grounds of "our poor troops our suffering, bring them home." Like it or not, America is committed to this endeavour, so the only choice left is to finish it right.

We can pull out. But that won't end this war. 9/11 should have made that clear. We can turn away from Iraq or Afghanistan now, and get a knife right in the back later when some extremist decides to "punish the Great Satan." I hardly think so-called "superpower" status matters to fanatics very much. In the end, we have to stay. We can either find a way to bridge the chasm between the West and the Islamic world, or we can fight to bloody ruin. We can bleed them and they can bleed us, forever. I prefer to find a lasting solution. I know it's possible, but now that the battle lines are drawn and the enemy is not interested in leaving us alone or screwing around, whatever needs to be done to ensure the United States survives better be done.

Peace out.

 

[longeyes]

I'm sorry but the Muslim world is going to have to do more than merely condemn the terrorist elements, even granting that they have made much effort to do so publicly. They are in the best position to root them out, given their knowledge of the culture and the language. I think we are well within our rights to hold them responsible for reining in their delinquents. At some point, especially if there are more dramatic attacks, the West will tire of dealing with state-abetted terrorism as a law enforcement problem and lay our dead on the doorstep of the people who are behind it all.

 

[El Rojo]

Thank you hapafish for your comments. It is good to get your perspective.

We should also go for total disarmament of the entire populace. No rational reason why we should let "every household" have automatic weapons, especially since they shoot them off everywhere with no regard for public safety. Martial law, and 100% curfews after sundown. No one should have any business outside after dark.

How is this any different than a world with Saddam? Sure you might not get taken away and killed, but do you have anymore freedom under this US martial law than under Saddam? Why should we have the right to keep and bear arms if the Iraqi's can not? Is it only an Anglo (I know you are of Japanese decent) right? I know Hapafish you give us examples of how to keep you and your buddies safe. That is your perspective as the guy who has to worry about getting wacked on a daily basis over there. However, would you want to live the same way? Martial law? No going out after dark? Total disarmanent of the entire population? Do we have enough troops and Iraqi police to ensure everyone's safety? Will the evil elements of Iraq still find access to weapons?

I tell you what, that whole place is a big stinking mess. And the sad thing is under Saddam there was order. Life was predictable. As much as we enjoy our freedoms, it seems the Iraqi's didn't mind their enslavement too much. Isn't it crazy how a few bad apples can ruin this whole thing?

God Bless our troops who have to do the best job they can over there. May you always be proud of your professionalism and the job well done. Even if we pull out and the whole place goes to hell again, you did what you had to do. And I think that sacrifice and dedication is a good thing for the youth of America. We have to find something positive from this crazy situation. I wish there was an easy answer.

 

[idd]

One important difference between our troops and the terrorists is that our troops are not intentionally waging war on civilians and non-combatants and desecrating them or humiliating them, either alive or dead.

HHmm.....would you believe deliberately destroying civilian infrastructure such as sewage treatment and water purification plants?

How about ending infrastructure and services repair in Fallujah for a time being ?

The beatings will continue until morale improves.

 

[Drjones]

Just a couple random, late-night thoughts:

I don't care who the terrorists are, where they come from, why they hate us, nor what religion they pretend to practice.

As long as there are people attacking and plotting against America, as well as attacking our Armed Forces overseas, we should find out who is responsible, as well as what, if any, countries, governments, or other organizations may be lending them any support, comfort or aid of any form, and wipe them out completely.

If that takes a nuke, so be it. If that takes xx number of bullets, so be it.

Find who is doing it and obliterate them.

If we find that much of the "civilian" population is encouraging and supporting activities like this, well they aren't really civilians, are they?

Act accordingly. That's why we invented the MOAB and have such a range of delightfully explosive goodies in our arsenal.

 

[El Rojo]

So where do you draw the line Dr. Jones? What constitutes encouraging and supporting activities like this? Voting Democrat? Many of us would advocate they are on the side of evil. I like good old fashioned violence just as much as the next guy; however, if the violence just encourages more violence and the cycle never ends, it might be time to think of another option. Does anyone in here really believe that we can "force" Islamic Militants into realizing their cause is lost? HELLO!!! I value life. I don't really want to die for my cause, I want the other guy to die for his. Islamic Militants are willing to die for their cause! They think dieing for their cause is a good thing. They think they will be greatly rewarded for that. So how is threatening to kill them going to convince them they don't want to fight us? Sure I give you that if we convince those not willing to die that they might die too, they might stop supporting these people. Or they might just lay low and just try to stay out of it.

If we find that much of the "civilian" population is encouraging and supporting activities like this, well they aren't really civilians, are they?

I guess those security guards that were dragged through the streets weren't really civilians were they? I guess anyone who believed in America and our cause for freedom who died on 9/11 weren't really civilians either. So since the Islamic Militants figured we are all part of this war, we are all fair game right? In reality, yes we are. I know a terrorist will smoke me just as easily as a guy in uniform. I make no mistakes about that and know if I ever run into a terrorist who is bent on entering Allah's Kingdom at my expense, I will not hesitate to send Him there without me. However, do we want to be the same as the terrorists? Do we want to disregard life so easily as they do? Do we really believe God will honor our deeds because we sent as many of the heathen Islamic barbarians to their hellish graves as possible? If the answers are yes, then bombs away. Take them all out. Kill them all: men, women, and children. Do it in the name of God, Country, and Glory! I won't be joining you in Hell.

 

[Drjones]

Does anyone in here really believe that we can "force" Islamic Militants into realizing their cause is lost? HELLO!!! I value life. I don't really want to die for my cause, I want the other guy to die for his. Islamic Militants are willing to die for their cause! They think dieing for their cause is a good thing. They think they will be greatly rewarded for that. So how is threatening to kill them going to convince them they don't want to fight us? Sure I give you that if we convince those not willing to die that they might die too, they might stop supporting these people. Or they might just lay low and just try to stay out of it.

No see, you misunderstand.

When I said "wipe them out completely" and "obliterate," I meant that we should kill them all. (Terrorists, not nuking whole cities.)

I know that these terrorists cannot be persuaded or reasoned with in any way. The only way to defeat them is to kill them, and I'm more than happy to do that.

We have bigger guns and bombs. Let's put them to good use.

I guess those security guards that were dragged through the streets weren't really civilians were they? I guess anyone who believed in America and our cause for freedom who died on 9/11 weren't really civilians either. So since the Islamic Militants figured we are all part of this war, we are all fair game right? In reality, yes we are. I know a terrorist will smoke me just as easily as a guy in uniform. I make no mistakes about that and know if I ever run into a terrorist who is bent on entering Allah's Kingdom at my expense, I will not hesitate to send Him there without me. However, do we want to be the same as the terrorists? Do we want to disregard life so easily as they do? Do we really believe God will honor our deeds because we sent as many of the heathen Islamic barbarians to their hellish graves as possible? If the answers are yes, then bombs away. Take them all out. Kill them all: men, women, and children. Do it in the name of God, Country, and Glory! I won't be joining you in Hell.

You're awfully good at building those straw men.

Nowhere in my previous post did I advocate senselessly and randomly killing civilians.

What I did state is that if a person is aiding and abetting terrorists in any way (this includes the people who murdered our men today), they should be considered a legitimate target.

You obviously forget that among these "people," a woman will kill you just as dead as a man.

 

[hapafish]

-El Rojo

How is this any different than a world with Saddam? Sure you might not get taken away and killed, but do you have anymore freedom under this US martial law than under Saddam? Why should we have the right to keep and bear arms if the Iraqi's can not? Is it only an Anglo (I know you are of Japanese decent) right? I know Hapafish you give us examples of how to keep you and your buddies safe. That is your perspective as the guy who has to worry about getting wacked on a daily basis over there. However, would you want to live the same way? Martial law? No going out after dark? Total disarmanent of the entire population? Do we have enough troops and Iraqi police to ensure everyone's safety? Will the evil elements of Iraq still find access to weapons?

Good sir, I think I am losing all my pocket change in this thread. To be really blunt, I sometimes don't think that there is ANY equivalency between American and Iraqi society other than that the residents of both breathe air and reside on this planet. That having been said, my comments on martial law, curfews, etc. were not just my opinions on how the troops could stay alive, but how the Iraqis could find lasting peace. The Iraqis don't have a constitution - yet. The Arab world didn't go through the sociohistorical process (the Magna Carta, the French Revolution, the Declaration of Independence) that the United States did, so there may not even be RKBA enshrined in it. To give RKBA to all Iraqis at this stage is like giving the right to inmates in an asylum to medicate themselves. If we don't defang the insurgents, they'll just keep on blowing up infrastructure and shooting up the public until everything goes to s%&t.

If I knew that I wouldn't have to worry about my neighbors blowing up my sheep, stealing my crops, getting ripped on booze and shooting up my walls, I would not complain about not having firearms in the house. Especially if justice was swift, certain, and implacable. Right now it isn't, and I don't think the Stryker unit that relieved my Brigade a couple of months back has changed things much. Remember, I've lived overseas in a society that has no RKBA, and extremely low crime rates thanks to a strong police state. The rules are different for Asia and, as I found, the Middle East. I hardly think the people in THR go around using their RKBA to tear up their local PD with "evil assault weapons" and use them to run guns, run drugs, and destroy people. In Iraq, that's a way of life. If you found toddlers beating the crap out of each other with sticks and bleeding each other out, would you not take the sticks away from them and sort them out? Wouldn't you sit them down, explain to them why this was wrong, and ground them for this sort of behavior, and warn them that such behavior would not be tolerated in the future? So why the hell do we let the Iraqis run around with all that damn heavy ordnance, and let them bleed each other and us?

As long as we pussyfoot around we're going to keep on getting hit, over and over and over again. Something happened to the America that was strong enough to do "whatever it takes" to bring an end to the Axis Powers. Now it's all about strangulation through ROEs, bad media coverage, bleeding hearts, and letting terrorists and their sponsors walk. This is bulls%&t. I don't want to have to watch another 9/11 unfold. I've heard enough arguments on how "evil" America is for the sanctions, for its "unwarranted invasion" and for any number of reasons. Better evil than living with having failed the nation and let our families die.

America's technology and way of life do not guarantee it victory. Peasants fought us to standstill in Vietnam, and insurgents with rubber sandals are holding us up in Iraq and Afghanistan. War is dirty, and the quicker it ends the right way with a decisive conclusion, the better. So why not admit this is for better or worse a fight to the bitter end? They dragged those charred bodies around like it was Mogadishu, and they want us to pull out? So we give them what they want, and they hit us, the "Great Satan" for any number of reasons with another 9/11? No thanks. The fight is on their doorstep. Since we're not Romans, Mongols, or the Red Army, and we've committed to reforming the crackheads without burning the whole block down, why not do the right thing and really clean house? Is that really too much to ask? I'll stay in service until it's done. Far better men than I would do the same with no regrets. And maybe, just maybe, this war will end in living memory.

That's enough for tonight. I expect to get royally flamed. Peace out.

 

[Gabe]

This whole thing reminds me of the French experience in Algeria. The French were killing a lot more Algerian guerrillas than the other way around. So the only thing the Algerians could do was make those French casualties die as barbarically as possible.

They kept uping the ante in atrocities but the French weren't shocked. Finally they kidnaped some French soldiers and skinned them. From then on French civilian population started to say these people are too savage to save and public support dissolved.

My prediction is Iraqi insurgents will follow this route. The attacks will become ever more barbaric as a premeditated technique to dishearten the TV watching public. It's a mind game, reality is the first casualty of terroristic insurgencies.

Fighting terrorists have to be done in a cold calculating way, resorting to kneejerk reaction is the fastest way to lose the war.

 

[El Rojo]

No I understood you.

aiding and abetting terrorists in any way

as well as what, if any, countries, governments, or other organizations may be lending them any support, comfort or aid of any form, and wipe them out completely.

So if I speak out in favor of Islam and that the Americans get what they deserve, am I condemned to death? I just "comforted" them. Do Muslims tithe? If any of that money goes from their church and finds its way into a terrorist organization, should we MOAB the church and all of the people in it? No straw men here. I just want to know how far we are going to carry out this pacification of our enemies. I would also like to know if it is even remotely possible we could ever kill all of our enemies and anyone who even thinks about "supporting, comforting, or aiding them in any form". Lets see, there are the Chineese, sometimes our friends, sometimes our enemies. There's a billion we have to wipe out there. How many Muslims are there in the world? My quick goole search puts that between 700 million and 1.2 billion people. Of course not all of the chinese and Muslims hate us, but we still have a lot of people to kill. So lets get started. Lets not worry about a trial or anything, just start killing. The MOAB is such a precision weapon, I am sure no one innocent will get hit. I am sure no target will ever get misclassified (like the Chineese Embassy in Iraq). Lets just start the wholesale slaughter. Forget about the logistics and how many more people we are going to convince to hate us in the ensuing Mêlée. We are Americans! Shoot first, ask questions later!

Ok, here is my deal. I am all for hunting them down. But how long are we going to have to hunt? Can we take them all out? Are we going to do it with our "MOAB and range of delightfully explosive goodies"? How long are we going to have to kill? How do we set our policies concerning who is guilty and who is not? What is considered aiding the enemey? What is not? If we are going to assume that our resolve is so great and we will hunt them forever and the more American's they kill, the more resolved we are going to be, why do we assume they do not have the same resolve? There is going to come a time when we find that all of our resources are going to the waging of war and what good is that? We have to have a balance. I don't have all of the answers, but I do know blowing everyone to hell is not the best solution. Reality, we will never kill all of the terrorists. New soldiers are recruited everyday. So when is this war on terror going to end? Probably the same time as the war on drugs and the war on crime. Damn that sucks.

 

[El Rojo]

No flames from me Hapafish. What you say makes sense. I just get this feeling that Iraq is this big black hole with no end in sight. Will it all work? We are supposed to give them control as soon as possible. How do you convince the common Iraqi that an oppresive American regime is better than Saddam's regime we just took out? What is the incentive to them to go along with it? Are they capable of living in peace? Someone else brought up the good point that much of this region has been like this forever. Many tribes and groups in Afghan, Somalia, Vietnam, and Iraq hate each other. They would rather die than get along. Then a foreign invader comes along, they kiss and make up, get together and kill the foreign devils, get their country back, then start it all up again. Is there an end in sight for this Iraqi War? Will they ever get along and take up the cause of democracy and representative government? I ask you because I don't know them. You have at least talked to some of them. Do you honestly think absent from a strong dictator or king, these people will ever get along? I wish being of isolationist mindset didn't make you a target.

My brain is fried. I give up for tonight. Everyone take care.

 

[BamBam-31]

Aaaarrrggg! Outrage!

Man, I'm glad I'm not calling the shots. It'd be WWIII, only condensed.

 

[ravinraven]

Hey, Capt Nemo. If you'd just answer YES to your question, I'm sure you could get a job in any college or university running their Anti-Kultural program!

"Is the the next step to say that our country belongs to everybody except us?"

-------------------

I think we have to have a SUPER intelligence service. We have to wipe these birds out from the inside in order to keep atoms and MOABs from being the order of the day. I don't think that we need to care what they believe or how they "worship" as long as the free world is not continually endangered. When they attack us, totally wipe out the area the attackers came from. That way, if you are actually a peaceful Muslim and a terrorist unit sets up shop in your neighborhood, you'll have some incentive to call in your friendly neighborhood CIA team to extinguish the bass t*rds.

This is a bit like cancer surgery. And in the surgical removal of a cancer, some healthy cells are taken with it. Sorry.

rr

 

[RealGun]

Those pictures were meant to be upsetting. I don't need to see them and give any satisfaction. The question is whether we can handle the truth about what goes on over there. My guess is that, off the record, Marines and Special Forces will exact a price for participating in that picture and incident. On the record, it's a war crime by international law. It ain't over yet.

 

[ojibweindian]

pax

some of the people who posted after me, who really proved the point of my first post.

ojibweindian, feedthehogs, warmi ~ thanks for illustrating my point with such acidulous piquancy.

Have you seen the pictures?

I really don't care if I proved your point or not. I'm not in any popularity contests, I'm not PC, or very sensitive to damn near anything said or done by anyone to me. It does, however make me extremely pissed to see Americans killed and and their bodies desecrated in such a fashion while a huge group of miscreant bastards gleefully watch and cheer.

Those people in Falluja have a good idea as to who these guys are, and they're not doing too much to help our troops catch them so as far as I'm concerned, they're all guilty, and they should all die.

If you, or anybody on this board, thinks that to be an extremist POV, all I can say is TS and be glad I'm not CinC.

 

[Eskimo Jim]

Idd,
Interesting link, however can you prove that this policy was carried out?

If you don't have concrete, detailed and irrefutable proof of this then you're making some very heavy allegations that aren't true.

-Jim

 

[BeLikeTrey]

Claim victory?

When we turn it over our job is done. We need to stick it out until then. We also need to clearly state our objectives DAILY! We need to sound like a broken record. “Our objective is…. And …. And ….†Once those objectives are complete, we claim victory.

 

[Joe Demko]

ojibweindian:

I really don't care if I proved your point or not. I'm not in any popularity contests, I'm not PC, or very sensitive to damn near anything said or done by anyone to me.

You are, however, still here instead of on your way to Iraq to actually do anything besides impotently squeal for revenge that you want someone else (i.e some kid in the army) to take for you.

 

[ojibweindian]

Guess what I did in the 90s, Golgo? I was a Corpsman. I got to see some stuff. *** did you do for your country? I patched up young men and women. Sometimes they bled all over me and my fellow corpsmen.

Ever see what ruptured steam pipes can do to flesh? I have. Ever see what happens when someone falls from the bridge wing on the O4 level to the pier? I have. Ever see what happens when someone who had a little too much to drink the night before gets into a losing battle with a metal press? I have.

So, I've served, and will continue to serve my country in whatever way fate allows me. You can KMA.

 

[longeyes]

Hapafish

I'd like to thank you for your perspective and remarks. Your addition to this forum is invaluable. No flames here; the only flames belong in Iraq, under the people who hate and threaten us.

El Rojo said: "Ok, here is my deal. I am all for hunting them down. But how long are we going to have to hunt? Can we take them all out? Are we going to do it with our "MOAB and range of delightfully explosive goodies"? How long are we going to have to kill? How do we set our policies concerning who is guilty and who is not? What is considered aiding the enemey? What is not? If we are going to assume that our resolve is so great and we will hunt them forever and the more American's they kill, the more resolved we are going to be, why do we assume they do not have the same resolve? There is going to come a time when we find that all of our resources are going to the waging of war and what good is that? We have to have a balance. I don't have all of the answers, but I do know blowing everyone to hell is not the best solution. Reality, we will never kill all of the terrorists. New soldiers are recruited everyday. So when is this war on terror going to end? Probably the same time as the war on drugs and the war on crime. Damn that sucks."

I think the answer to how long we are going to have to hunt is: How long do you want to stay alive, how long do you wish to prevail?

As for the "balance," my own personal view is that given the realities of the world we need to shift the balance away from consumer nicety-nice and toward the military. All of the great societies have been "war machine" societies, including those which advanced science, art, and law. There's a reason for that, and it hasn't been repealed. Civilization is a never-ending struggle, fought on all levels. We keep trying to take the word "fight" out of the discourse; that's the legacy of the last forty years of social experimentation. It won't work until and unless the genetic engineers transform human nature--and that's a prospect most of us would feel pretty uncomfortable with.

I think Hapafish raises some issues about RKBA that should be discussed further on this forum. In the end we cannot separate RKBA from the culture and values in which it arises. That's my view, at least.

 

[longeyes]

You are, however, still here instead of on your way to Iraq to actually do anything besides impotently squeal for revenge that you want someone else (i.e some kid in the army) to take for you.

That's a pretty cheap shot. Save your vitriol for the real enemy.

You do bring up a good point, though: we need everyone in this society to get behind the war effort. That means more than paying taxes. If this is a real war to save the Republic, then we should honor that and mobilize.
we should act as if we understand we're at war, united, and ready to make sacrifices. We've got half this country thinking they're on a never-ending party circuit by entitlement.

 

[Paco]

Gentlemen, I'd just like to throw this out since the gauntlet has been thrown down:

-We all serve our country. If you're a legal, tax paying citizen of the USA, then you are serving this country. How do people think the military exists: by civies busting there butt at their jobs to pay taxes and giving up their sons, daughters, sisters, brothers, mothers, and fathers to the effort and being there to pick up the pieces when they come back.

-I have GREAT respect for our military personelle even if all you do is push papers or feed the hungry soldiers. Having said that, being a soldier doesn't mean your word should have anymore weight in weighting out the moral or logistical implications of a situation. It does give you insight into human nature, but then a cop or social worker, for example has great insight as well.

-My personal belief is to ALWAYS support the soldiers but to question our politians. If you want to talk about duty-then our duty, for us non-uniform wearing folk is to make absolutely sure that the folks sending our people to war are doing the right thing and to CONSTANTLY stay vigilant and question what they do. This is our duty to our servicemen. From the marines over there who object to the war for instance, they are NOT in a place to practice democracy. It would endanger their own lifes as well as the lives of the folks about them. So, let's get involved, however you feel about the war, but don't go dogging people because they don't see eye to eye with how our military should be used and then say they are not patriotic or American or don't know what they are talking about.

Here to Support the troops with Foresight,
-paco

 

[longeyes]

Which gauntlet would that be?

If you're talking about my remarks, I said we need to get real and mobilize. If this is a war that will go on for decades, all around the world, then perhaps we should act like it. That's my point. As for the taxes, well, it's possible, you know, that, heaven forfend, the military might actually have to be expanded, at the expense of the consumer, and that more Americans will have to be directly involved in the war effort.

I mean, just if we want to survive, that's all. It's up to us.

We've had forty years of being told that war is not the answer and that we shouldn't hurt anyone's feelings. Is it becoming clear yet that we might have been misinformed?

 

[Paco]

Not to lighten a serious matter, but I just want to say that EVERYONE has given me a mighty lot to think about. Really. One realizes how this situation is soooo not cut and dry as we'd like it to be. Hapafish-man, as much as I might disagree with what you say, you've got me thinking deep and hard-especially about the whole RKBA thing that is intrinsic in us but maybe not them. Longeyes-I didn't me you. Peace.

-Paco