Americans Killed in Iraq Mutilated and Desecrated

[fix]

The way I see it, the only we do now is by being there, we keep as many of the bad guys tied up over there as humanly possible.

An important benefit that too many people fail to realize. Islamic radicals will continue to flood into Iraq rather than focusing on coming here, simply because it is much simpler from a logistics perspective. Some may come here, but most will go for the target that is closer to them. Eventually they will concentrate in Iran, so that they can cross the border into Iraq or the Stan to kill Americans. Guess what comes next? A big terrorist sandwich that the Mullahs in Iran will have to take a bite of. Fitting really, when you look at their activities over the course of the last few decades.

 

[hops]

I just luv the 'that region has been barbaric for 1000's of years' type of thinking, with reference to the middle east.

Seems that most of the Judeo/Christian members on this thread (with apologies to the Athiests and Agnostics) seem to forget that the EUROPE region has been at least, if not more Barbaric for the last 2000 years, too.

I have had the good fortune to have met people from all over the world and have found that I have more incommon with them that I have not.

 

[Don Gwinn]

This is an important subject that I'd like to have discussed, but there will be no more personal attacks. None. Next one closes the thread.

I hope that is understood by everyone.

 

[BigG]

I take exception to terming it mutilation. That's the FREE PRESS trying to inflame the situation. Mutilation would be to living victims. What these dimbulbs did was desecrate corpses. Took no courage or grit whatsoever. They do deserve extermination.

 

[Paco]

Good point Hops. At one point Bagdad was the center of High Civilization. Didn't they invent Algebra and some other very useful and neat things? Didn't Saladin make public bath house, banks that went far and wide, and a public health system? I think they were quite civilized once upon a time and up until the first Gulf War, they were wealthy and educated. Now if one talks about the herdsmen or nomads, well I don't think they've changed at all in a very, very long time, but they've had no need to.

-paco

 

[Sean Smith]

Taken individually, I think "our" (read: Christian) religious fanatics are just as bad as "their" (read: Muslim) religious fanatics. Fanatics are, essentally, fanatics. However, if you compare the body count in the U.S. in the last, say, 20 years, it is hard to see why they are constantly spoken together in the same breath as if they are problems of equal magnitude. Because, objectively speaking, they aren't. Unless somebody can find, say, 3,000 bodies that some Southern Baptist offshoot waxed when I wasn't looking, I'm hard pressed to see the comparison between kooky Christians and nutty Muslims as anything but an irrelevant distraction.

Yeah, everybody can be naughty. But right now, it is the naughty (self-proclaimed) Muslims that want to kill our asses. Why deny the obvious? When the nutty Lutheran terrorists start racking up a sutibly appalling kill count, I'll be happy to shoot them, too.

 

[El Rojo]

An important benefit that too many people fail to realize. Islamic radicals will continue to flood into Iraq rather than focusing on coming here, simply because it is much simpler from a logistics perspective. Some may come here, but most will go for the target that is closer to them.

This is an interesting point. I don't know how I would feel as a contractor or a soldier about that, but it is seemingly true for us. I don't think Spain and Indonesia would agree. However, it is true, they are softer targets than us and that proves your point that they will stick to what is easiest for them because that is what terrorists do. That is why I don't think we are going to see anymore passenger jets falling out of the skies anytime soon.

Longeyes, All of the great societies have been "war machine" societies, including those which advanced science, art, and law. There's a reason for that, and it hasn't been repealed.

Does that include the Soviet Union? How many of those war machine societies are around today? Being a political science major, you need to be careful making a statement that begins with "All". It only takes one example of a "war machine" society that was horrible to make your whole statement false. Anyway, care to list some examples of "war machine" societies that were so great? Maybe Hitler's Germany? They had all sorts of great minds there, too bad they all fled to America during the "war machine" days.

 

[BigG]

Longeyes, All of the great societies have been "war machine" societies, including those which advanced science, art, and law. There's a reason for that, and it hasn't been repealed.

Interesting point. Here's what another guy had to say c. 1949:

"In Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love - they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock." Harry Lime <The Third Man>

The Third Man

 

[Paco]

BigG,

It is an interesting point but trading high technology for high morality is the proverbial apple of Eden- knowledge for peace and ignorance. The noble savage against the Corrupt Man of Civilization. For me, we don't need all that high technology especially at the expense of morality or dependence on foreign folk to make our toys for us nice and cheap so everyone can have a 2 TVs, video games, AC, computer, digital clock, 2 cars etc,etc.

Rome essentially borrowed from the lands it conquered: They were like the Borg, or something . They assimilated. After WWII, the spoils were the german scientists and prototypes, and blue prints, not the land or resources. Now, it seems that the 'war machine' technology race is no longer useful or desirable. It's capitalism, the open, competeing market, free trade, that spurns us to higher and highe technology IE Buy my car cause it's a little faster than that car AND it makes great apple pie while you drive!

If high technology goes too far ahead of high morality and ability to enforce high morality, then you get into some hot water.

-paco

 

[longeyes]

El Rojo,

I think I'm on safe ground with that generalization. You'll note that I put "war machine" in quotes; nor was I making a moral judgment about the fact. Advanced war-making capability goes with social organization and technology and can be used for good or ill. Don't blame me, blame our species; this is the way we are. What we do with the power is a whole different issue. My statement, as you aver, isn't false because some of the martial societies were or are rotten or anti-democratic or anti-individualist. Perhaps you can show me an important culture that wasn't, at its core, organized around both self-defense and aggression. When you find one, let me know, and I'll cite that one as "anecdotal."

Technology and morality are both at play, Paco, and it's not a choice of one or the other. A lot is happening at once. You know Dickens' line: It was the best of times, it was the worst of times. We are enhancing our abilities to both create and destroy; on balance I believe our own society is far more a creator than a destroyer and that we are, in the main, using our power to advance the light rather than extinguish it.

 

[Paco]

Longeyes,

Yes you're right: Technology and Morality are both necessary at the same time. I'd like to believe also in equal measure but I think when we grasp some technology that can be used either to create or destroy, we'll usually figure out how it can destroy first-or figure out how it can creat things to help us destroy IE splitting the atom (Iknow, we were at war, but we really let out something special outta pandora's box with that one).

Man is a creature of fear-it's why we conquered the wild world and made extinct numerous animals. That's why we readily slaughter each other for resources even though there's more than enough for everyone in the world, were it properly distributed. One can say its greed or selfishness but I believe the root of it all is fear. Fear of not having-so you take too much, fear of possible injury so you kill too much, just to be sure, and safe. 'I take care of my own and screw everyone else'...

So, since I believe we are a creature riddled with doubt and fear I'd say we need to put more time in our moral stance than our technology. I have great respect for homesteaders out there who make use of technology a notch or two UNDER what's available, and they live fine. They never get to big for their britches and they never grow an appetite for comfort/amenities that is too great and puts a strain on their fellow man or environment.

How does this equate to this thread, well just because we've got the power, or even the fear doesn't mean we have the right. But again I'm not sure what needs to be done-I do know it's not nearly so cut and dry as some folks are painting it to be: Bombs Away and Death to the Islam. Question: has anyone in this thread worked in higher politics-I wonder what's the real take in the inner circles of the White House.

-paco

 

[longeyes]

And the way to overcome "fear" has been through organization and technology, whether it was at the level of the primitive hunting band or, later, the conglomerated agricultural states. Without the technology to alleviate want and to distribute goods, morality becomes nothing more than a subsistence game to eke out a meager living. Until the last two hundred years the world hadn't really changed much; the standard of living of the average person was pretty much frozen, hadn't advanced in millennia. We need to look closely at where those improvements came from and how. I think we'll find that they emanated from a happy convergence of social, political, cultural, scientific, and religious forces in a relatively small orbit.

I'm not a believer in being "lowly wise," although there's quite a difference between that and willful waste. We don't have to lose our moral bearings because the world continues to offer us more possibilities for our energy and imagination. This forum, with people exchanging ideas instantly from vast distances, is a perfect example of what didn't exist twenty years ago. Had there been no ARPANET we wouldn't be having this conversation now...

 

[Paco]

I agree, as I type on my keyboard. Obviously I think the lifestyle I live is better than the homesteader, or rather it has more potential, both good and bad. That has alway been the crux of technolgy-greater everything. More latitude, more momentum-kinda like swinging a really heavy bat. That's why we can't let it get away from us and why I advocate CONSTANT vigilance of our gov. while giving CONSTANT emotional support to the fellas in that cauldron of poop over there. Stay the course, but keep checking those bearings.

 

[ojibweindian]

Just to show everyone what a nice guy Golgo is:

Thank you for your service. As it happens, in the 80's I was a combat engineer. I was also a volunteer fireman for 12 years and have also spent some time as a deputy sheriff. So, unless there is some pressing need to have a dick-waving contest about who did what 10 or 20 years ago, let's confine ourselves to right now.

You're the tough-talking mother????er who says he's willing to kill women, children, and old people in the course of wiping out a city. Go do it. If you're too old for the military, go as a "civilian" contractor or just go on your own. It shouldn't be too difficult for a hard, tough, resourceful guy like you to get in-country, one way or another. In the meantime, why don't you shut the ???? up and stop embarassing yourself and the whole board?

p.s. The dick-waving you felt compelled to do in the thread served no purpose but to make you look more foolish. There is such an overwhelmingly large population of former and present-service military at THR that bragging about military service only makes one look insecure.

From a string of PMs sent to me in the past few hours.

And with that, y'all can do with me what you will.

 

[Paco]

Aren't PM's supposed to be private and between you and the other person? I'm new here so please let me in on the skinny.

 

[fix]

 

[ojibweindian]

Yep, but the viciousness of this attack by Golgo prompted me to print it. I fully expect to be booted from this site for this (I hope I'm not), but I will not stand for this kind of attack on me by him to go un-noticed.

 

[Daniel T]

*Self-edited.*

That is underhanded and is not in line with morals you have claimed to hold in the past, namely Christian ones.

 

[fix]

I would recommend some "self editing" elsewhere, rather than letting this live forever.

 

[Brian Dale]

Paco,—yeah, that's customary.

jib—I've seen a lot of posts from you that shared real insight. Seriously.

The late gun writer and professional hunter Finn Aagard once wrote, or said, "Why do men fight? They fight because they like to."

 

[Powderman]

Here's a possible solution--i.e., what I would do if I were the man in charge:

1. Send a message, via all possible media, to those in Iraq. Tell them to pay close attention to their portion of the sky at a specific time. Make sure that it's dark out, as in the dead of night.

2. Notify our NATO allies, and all others in the region.

3. At the specified time, light off an extremely high-altitude nuclear weapon--say, about 100,000 feet up, in the megaton range.

4. Warn the Iraqis that ANY more atrocities against Americans or foreign personnel WILL result in the immediate detonation of one of those (somewhat smaller than that, but don't let them know) devices against the city or region where the attack took place.

5. During the preparation phase for all of this, get every inch of footage that was taken of the mutilation and display of bodies. Obtain still photographs of all possible who were cheering or participating. Distribute those photos to combat units.

6. As a part of the announcement, notify the city of Fallujah that they have one hour to give those participants over to American authorities. If they are handed over, fine. Give them a fair trial.

7. For those who are not handed over forthwith, conduct a house-to-house, room-to-room search of the city. Place a cordon around the city prior to this happening. Anyone attempting to escape other than through established checkpoints will be shot on sight. No quarter.

8. When any who participated in the atrocities are found, they will be taken to the street, shot, and left there. No quarter.

If they want to play, fine! But, from now on, we should make the rules.

 

[fix]

I say we just tell the Blackwater boys that the interim administration is willing to look the other way for a few weeks, while they go get a little payback of their own.

 

[Sean Smith]

At the specified time, light off an extremely high-altitude nuclear weapon--say, about 100,000 feet up, in the megaton range.

Somebody obviously hasn't heard of EMP.

 

[Powderman]

The effects of EMP can be minimized, as long as all sensitive equipment (anything that is not adequately shielded) is momentarily disconnected before the burst, and reconnected after the burst.

 

[TaurusCIA]

We have to have a balance. I don't have all of the answers, but I do know blowing everyone to hell is not the best solution. Reality, we will never kill all of the terrorists. New soldiers are recruited everyday. So when is this war on terror going to end? Probably the same time as the war on drugs and the war on crime. Damn that sucks.

So let's just quit and go home. These guys are just too mean to mess with.

Idd,
Interesting link, however can you prove that this policy was carried out?

If you don't have concrete, detailed and irrefutable proof of this then you're making some very heavy allegations that aren't true.

-Jim

Jim, did this really suprise you?