Another Superb Budget Rifle
- Thread starter Uncle Mike
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MCgunner
Member
Remington is a high quality rifle, they're just living in a litigious society and are a might paranoid. I get around that little non-locking bolt thing by neck sizing my brass. It takes enough force to close the bolt that a twig or something ain't gonna lift it. Works for me. I really prefer the locking bolt on my old 722, though. It does sorta irritate me that Remington couldn't design a 3 position safety, took the cheap way out. 
Now, the old Remington 721s and short action 722s were, at the time, "budget" rifles. Wow, but mine is about the smoothest bolt action I own. I guess they don't make 'em like they used to.
Now, the old Remington 721s and short action 722s were, at the time, "budget" rifles. Wow, but mine is about the smoothest bolt action I own. I guess they don't make 'em like they used to.
MCgunner
Member
Simple, they have 3 position safeties, Savage and Winchester, anyway. You can work the bolt in the middle position with the safety on to unload, pull it all the way down to lock the bolt. This would have been the RIGHT thing for Remington to design, but they took the cheap way out.
MCgunner
Member
Yeah, but I really like the little M7. It's a fantastic little hunting rifle, 3/4 MOA from a 20" soda straw all day long and so compact and light......
It's a fantastic little hunting rifle, 3/4 MOA from a 20" soda straw all day long and so compact and light......Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
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Umm, no, no exactly. On a Vanguard, the safety DOES NOT WORK when the trigger is adjusted all the way to the best it can go. And guess what, the trigger is still pretty poor at that point. I have an Icon (and a Vanguard) and the trigger is much much better on the Icon (and the safety works).
And neither of those other two has 60 degree bolt throw, 5R rifling, externally-adjustable trigger (well the Savage does), and a sub-MOA guarantee. What part of those additional items didn't you see the first 5 times or so they were mentioned in this thread?
Plus the Icon is way better looking than the Savage, and even better looking than the Howa/Vanguard.I'll second the Marlin XL7. The trigger is excellent, adjustable to 2.5lbs and very crisp. The load used is one I have for a different rifle. It's Rem cases, Fed 210, 56gr of IMR 4350 and Rem 180 corelokt. Here's recent samples:
Also this guy fired several different loads out of his XL7 in this thread:
http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/index.php/topic,46843.0.html
For 300 bucks it's a deal. I should add that I've not shot this rifle but 3 different times but from what I can tell there's no way groups should be near 1". The load had actually been worked up for a different rifle but appears to be even better for this rifle.
Also this guy fired several different loads out of his XL7 in this thread:
http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/index.php/topic,46843.0.html
For 300 bucks it's a deal. I should add that I've not shot this rifle but 3 different times but from what I can tell there's no way groups should be near 1". The load had actually been worked up for a different rifle but appears to be even better for this rifle.
Cust700 308
Member
I asked this question in the other Venture thread but maybe UncleMike knows the answer, what are the twist rates of say the 7mm? I can't seem to find the info on the net, but I would imagine a dealer would be informed....
That's not true on mine.
And we're not talking about the Icon, we're talking about the Venture.
60 degree bolt throw is nice. Accuracy equal to my Vanguard is great (I dont care about the guarantee or the rifling design; I care about the 0.7" groups it shoots with my hunting loads).
I have the Sporter, not the plastic stock, and it's a hell of a lot nicer looking than the Venture. The T/C looks like a Euroweenie gun to me, but that's just personal preference. There's no such thing as a good-looking black plastic gun anyway.
60 degree bolt throw doesn't matter to me, compared to a safety that doesn't lock the bolt down. A hunting rifle should have hunting features FIRST, then other stuff. The externally-adjustable trigger is a true plus, though I haven't touched my Vanguard trigger since I adjusted it. What are you going to do? Adjust it differently every day or something?
T/C is an American, non-Cerberus company. I have some of their guns. Buy some!
I am definitely interested in the Icon. Not the Venture.
In general, I think that the emphasis on "match-grade" accuracy at the expense of features that actually matter in a hunting rifle is putting the cart before the horse.
OTOH integral but standard scope bases are a huge plus, to me. Buying bases doesn't make sense, and screws that can come loose are even worse.
Maverick223
Member
I have to agree (at least with respect to a hunting gun), but I doubt wood is in the budget for this one (like most other economically priced rifles).
Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
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But evidently they're the same thing, with the exceptions of the stock, and possibly the jeweling on the bolt and the bedding system.
I've had two Howa/Vanguards, and on both of them the safety won't go into the safety position if you adjust the trigger to the best/lightest it would go. The chances of me getting two consecutive lemons rather than a defect is slim to none. Yours must be the unusual "anti-lemon".
Another thing: It's funny about wood vs. plastic stocks and pricing. Obviously sellers want to maximize profit and will sell for whatever the market will bear. So, even though it's more expensive for them to make a wooden stock, you'll often see the same rifle priced slightly higher with a plastic black stock (yuk) since they're all the rage right now, than with the wooden stock! Or sometimes the exact same price. Being a fan of the wood, I find it pleasantly amusing that I can and do get the wood one cheaper. Wouldn't have happened that way 30 or 20 or even 10 years ago.
Fine, but what's that got to do with your allegation that a Vanguard/Howa is every bit the rifle as a Venture?
I adjusted my trigger to the best it would do, not the lightest it would go. I did lighten it up, but stopped short of the very end of the screw travel.
It's smooth enough, predictable, and about right for the field.
I have one gun that I put money into "as light as possible". I don't trust the safety on it, either. But it's a match gun.
There are differences between an ideal hunting rifle and a perfect target rifle.
If I want something really light in a field rifle, I'll go with a set trigger. Anything else is just asking for a premature shot IMO.
Mine is as accurate, it has a bolt-lock safety that's a requirement to me, vs. no bolt lock, and a 60 degree bolt throw which is nicety but not a requirement?
It's NOT a match rifle. I judge it as a hunting rifle.
A "match-grade crown" is nice, too. But don't tell me about the fancy trim, if I'm looking for a work truck. Tell me the thing has all the basic features I expect FIRST.
It's smooth enough, predictable, and about right for the field.
I have one gun that I put money into "as light as possible". I don't trust the safety on it, either. But it's a match gun.
There are differences between an ideal hunting rifle and a perfect target rifle.
If I want something really light in a field rifle, I'll go with a set trigger. Anything else is just asking for a premature shot IMO.
Mine is as accurate, it has a bolt-lock safety that's a requirement to me, vs. no bolt lock, and a 60 degree bolt throw which is nicety but not a requirement?
It's NOT a match rifle. I judge it as a hunting rifle.
A "match-grade crown" is nice, too. But don't tell me about the fancy trim, if I'm looking for a work truck. Tell me the thing has all the basic features I expect FIRST.
Maverick223
Member
Where are you buying at? Wood is worth more (and costs more) around these parts...but I think more people buy synthetic for whatever reason.
Let me summarize.
Here's what I'd really like to see in a budget hunting rifle:
A rifle with integral Weaver bases machined into the receiver perfectly, a silent, ergonomically-placed 3-position safety that locks the bolt all the way down in position 3, a smooth, clean factory-tuned 3.5 lb. trigger that feels good. I don't need it to be adjustable; I want it to feel right from the get-go.
The stock should be stiff and stable, and not bend in my hands. This allows real free-floating, which is a cheap if cheesy way to get some accuracy.
A short bolt throw would be nice, but not absolutely required. MOA is the standard these days. It should shoot that, but I don't expect it to with every POS box of ammo out there.
100 bucks more for stainless.
100 bucks more for walnut.
I don't want to hear about "match-grade barrels" or what kind of rifling the thing has, until it meets these basic requirements.
Here's what I'd really like to see in a budget hunting rifle:
A rifle with integral Weaver bases machined into the receiver perfectly, a silent, ergonomically-placed 3-position safety that locks the bolt all the way down in position 3, a smooth, clean factory-tuned 3.5 lb. trigger that feels good. I don't need it to be adjustable; I want it to feel right from the get-go.
The stock should be stiff and stable, and not bend in my hands. This allows real free-floating, which is a cheap if cheesy way to get some accuracy.
A short bolt throw would be nice, but not absolutely required. MOA is the standard these days. It should shoot that, but I don't expect it to with every POS box of ammo out there.
100 bucks more for stainless.
100 bucks more for walnut.
I don't want to hear about "match-grade barrels" or what kind of rifling the thing has, until it meets these basic requirements.
Uncle Mike
Member
The Icon does indeed utilize a bolt lock, with the lock engaged the bolt cannot open, it's called the 'Bolt-Loc'.
The Venture does not have a bolt loc, just a two position safety.
The Icon does, not the Venture. I said I was interested in the Icon.
This thread is not about the Icon.
You started the thread...
My point to T/C is this: don't eliminate basic hunting features and then tell me about the "match-grade" barrel. That's backwards.
(Kinda reminds me of Ruger, whose 8 lb. shotgun is touted for its round receiver.)
This thread is not about the Icon.
You started the thread...
My point to T/C is this: don't eliminate basic hunting features and then tell me about the "match-grade" barrel. That's backwards.
(Kinda reminds me of Ruger, whose 8 lb. shotgun is touted for its round receiver.
)Uncle Mike
Member
HA... on some things the manufacturer doesn't tell us any more than anyone else is told... the twist, according to the lady at T/C is 1:9, I personally think it may be a 1:9 1/4", for the 7mm Rem. Mag.?
Cust700 308
Member
Cool, Thank you very much for the info.
MCgunner
Member
Except for the bolt throw and the constant yapping of the factory about their button rifling process, you pretty much described my old Savage. The bolt through is long because the cartridge is. It came with a cheap wood stock. I replaced that with a plastic stock. I like plastic, has paid my bills all these years.
(retired from a PVC plant)Oh, that particular rifle is sorta picky about the bullet it likes, too, for some reason. It loves 150 Game Kings and Nosler 160 partitions, but don't try to feed it a 140 grain anything or a Hornady Interlock of any weight or a Barnes. Weird. It'll go from 1 MOA with a Game King or Partition to 4 MOA with some bullets. I tried a lot of different bullets in it for a heavy game load before I finally picked up on some Federal Premiums with the 160 Nosler from a guy in the club to try.
Maverick223
Member
I think he was referring to the bolt throw angle (90 or 60 degrees typ.).
MCgunner
Member
Hm, well, it's a 90 degree bolt, of course.
Oh, also, I don't think the bases are machined in. I think they're welded on, Weaver bases. I don't think Savage does that anymore, but they did about 1991 or so. But, I can live with bolt on bases and loctite. I rather like Millett's bases and rings, have Millett rings on the Savage with the Weaver type system.
Oh, also, I don't think the bases are machined in. I think they're welded on, Weaver bases. I don't think Savage does that anymore, but they did about 1991 or so. But, I can live with bolt on bases and loctite. I rather like Millett's bases and rings, have Millett rings on the Savage with the Weaver type system.
all i klnow is that , i like budget rifles!!! the thing i really like about the savage and the marlin xl7 is that it utilizes a barrel nut, which allows me to change out barrels whenever i want to, and not have to pay someone to do it for me. this would be the case if i were to get a new marlin, because i really like there rifle except for the fact i want it in 7 rem mag. but i guess that why we can change out barrels.
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