Armed robbery in pharmacy - what would YOU do?
- Thread starter Green Lantern
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imprezagm4
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I worked at drug stores throughout high school. Usually as a cashier up front or stocking shelves or whatever. My last store had awful management, the assistment manager was smoking crack in the storage area late at night (i found a pipe) and security was the last thing on anyones mind.
The manager NEVER did cash pick ups throughout the day, I routinely had a thousand dollars or more later in the day. No cameras, very few employees, no alarm, nothing.
The worst is that from 7-10pm there were only 2 employees in the whole store, myself cashiering, and the manager in the office. Surprised nothing bad ever happened looking back. Pharmacy's are pretty awful if the management doesn't care enough to protect the customers and employees
The manager NEVER did cash pick ups throughout the day, I routinely had a thousand dollars or more later in the day. No cameras, very few employees, no alarm, nothing.
The worst is that from 7-10pm there were only 2 employees in the whole store, myself cashiering, and the manager in the office. Surprised nothing bad ever happened looking back. Pharmacy's are pretty awful if the management doesn't care enough to protect the customers and employees
In response to the statistics; Statistically, the odds are way against you being in a store while it is robbed period...yet there you are. Statistically, the odds are good they will just take the $$/drugs and leave...yet your being herded to the back room. Statistically, shappy0869 says you have an overall 6.3% chance of dying in this situation according to FBI stats...yet the robber is telling you to get on your knees.
You now have the rest of your life to decide what to do. Is this guy gonna 100% decide you will live or 100% decide to kill you? There ain't no 6.3% about anything anymore.
Guy points gun, says give me your $$, you give it. Guy then says "How 'bout I shoot you and rape..." The sentence is cut off because he didn't get to finish it, you took action at that point. If he would have left with the wallet it would have ended there, his choice, but you had options. You can always choose to comply...until that no longer makes sense. Then it's up to whatever you got in reserve to handle it.
You also may run into a sociopath who just attacks and immediate violence on your part is necessary without hesitation. If a guy with a shotgun kicks in your door...don't ask him; "What do you want?"
You now have the rest of your life to decide what to do. Is this guy gonna 100% decide you will live or 100% decide to kill you? There ain't no 6.3% about anything anymore.
Very well said. A H2H instructor was in a robbery situation, guy outside with shotgun herded him back in the store. He could have disarmed him, but didn't, felt they would take the $$ and go. They did just take the $$ and go, no one was hurt. The other employees/customers present had some serious stress PTSD type issues after, the H2H instructor didn't. Why? He wasn't helpless, he had options and retained the option of using violence to end the encounter whenever he chose to. It never got to that, so he chose to comply. Training gives you choices, it doesn't mean you automatically go for it in every situation.
Guy points gun, says give me your $$, you give it. Guy then says "How 'bout I shoot you and rape..." The sentence is cut off because he didn't get to finish it, you took action at that point. If he would have left with the wallet it would have ended there, his choice, but you had options. You can always choose to comply...until that no longer makes sense. Then it's up to whatever you got in reserve to handle it.
You also may run into a sociopath who just attacks and immediate violence on your part is necessary without hesitation. If a guy with a shotgun kicks in your door...don't ask him; "What do you want?"
Mannlicher
Member
Simple. Find another job. Parm Techs are in great demand. Dead ones aren't.
Green Lantern
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Some thoughts:
ON THE DRAWING:
Was I over-reacting in my thought that doing a sketch of the perp while being robbed was a potentially suicidal move? There's no way he could have been SURE the BG wouldn't have seen it...?
MY CAREER
I was jokingly discussing this with co-workers this evening asking what we would do after we all quit after Wal-Mart and their @$%! "$4 generics" run us out of business!
(note to self - write letter to Wal-Mart asking them to leave pharmacy alone. Suggest they sell $4 boxes of Winchester White Box instead!!! )
Seriously...I love the job and my co-workers. I've seen what a "squeaky wheel" there can get done. I'm just going to keep pressure up to improve things, and maybe start playing the not-fun role of "paranoid nut" in order to see where my co-workers stand on the self-defense idea.
I may have my work cut out for me...a girl in the front store chased and confronted a teenage would-be shoplifter out of the store the other night. The little punk had tossed down a lighter, and a gift card in the store that he meant to steal.
(here's a hint folks - those cards have NO cash value til we ACTIVATE them at the REGISTER)
Meanwhile, I was doing what I do best...stand there tied to a telephone adjudicating a third-party rejection... :banghead:
Nothing bad came of it, just seemed like un-needed escalation of the situation to me.
RUNNING:
My pharmacy, like most of them, is CRAMPED. I almost fall over shelves/boxes/totes/my own feet/my coworkers EVERY DAY.
Cover is the back door, and it's probably too far away to risk a bullet in the back...
The only POSSIBLY decent cover in there are the Narc safes...poorly positioned unless I was behind the counter already when a guy in the lobby starts opening fire.
Plus, if I run the guy's gonna get agitated at the very least. "Justified" or not, I could not live with anyone getting hurt after *I* flee to safety.
ON DIFFERENT SCENARIOS:
Multiple robbers??? OY...not fun to think about, but very possible. Guess I'd better think about it anyway!
WHAT I HAVE TO WORK WITH
Now, FWIW...at work I always have some Fox OC (cone OR stream), a folding knife, and a Mini-Maglight.
I GUESS the best thing for me to do would be to use BOTH hands to try and control the BG's weapon. Get control of it, STEP BACK so he can't do to me what I just did to him, then proceed as needed.
Though, if there are better ideas given my "arsenal" I'd be receptive....
ON THE DRAWING:
Was I over-reacting in my thought that doing a sketch of the perp while being robbed was a potentially suicidal move? There's no way he could have been SURE the BG wouldn't have seen it...?
MY CAREER
I was jokingly discussing this with co-workers this evening asking what we would do after we all quit after Wal-Mart and their @$%! "$4 generics" run us out of business!
(note to self - write letter to Wal-Mart asking them to leave pharmacy alone. Suggest they sell $4 boxes of Winchester White Box instead!!!
)Seriously...I love the job and my co-workers. I've seen what a "squeaky wheel" there can get done. I'm just going to keep pressure up to improve things, and maybe start playing the not-fun role of "paranoid nut" in order to see where my co-workers stand on the self-defense idea.
I may have my work cut out for me...a girl in the front store chased and confronted a teenage would-be shoplifter out of the store the other night. The little punk had tossed down a lighter, and a gift card
in the store that he meant to steal.(here's a hint folks - those cards have NO cash value til we ACTIVATE them at the REGISTER)
Meanwhile, I was doing what I do best...stand there tied to a telephone adjudicating a third-party rejection... :banghead:
Nothing bad came of it, just seemed like un-needed escalation of the situation to me.
RUNNING:
My pharmacy, like most of them, is CRAMPED. I almost fall over shelves/boxes/totes/my own feet/my coworkers EVERY DAY.
Cover is the back door, and it's probably too far away to risk a bullet in the back...
The only POSSIBLY decent cover in there are the Narc safes...poorly positioned unless I was behind the counter already when a guy in the lobby starts opening fire.
Plus, if I run the guy's gonna get agitated at the very least. "Justified" or not, I could not live with anyone getting hurt after *I* flee to safety.
ON DIFFERENT SCENARIOS:
Multiple robbers??? OY...not fun to think about, but very possible. Guess I'd better think about it anyway!
WHAT I HAVE TO WORK WITH
Now, FWIW...at work I always have some Fox OC (cone OR stream), a folding knife, and a Mini-Maglight.
I GUESS the best thing for me to do would be to use BOTH hands to try and control the BG's weapon. Get control of it, STEP BACK so he can't do to me what I just did to him, then proceed as needed.
Though, if there are better ideas given my "arsenal"
I'd be receptive....My earlier answer (because I always think multiple opponents).
With multiple opponents it's all about angles and movement. Injure one severely and move around him so he is in between you and the others. Use his body as a giant club, for example; shove him on the next guy's legs breaking his knees. Keep moving, keep making the angles "one on one" get and stay out of the center. Theres a perp just dying to take your place in the middle, so forearm the side of his neck, pull him around (as you move behind him), knee him in the throat and put him there.
If I make this sound easy...it reminds me of something I heard in real estate investing. Anyone can do it, it is "simple", but it isn't easy. Takes some time and discipline to learn and train it, but the concepts are indeed simple and so are the strikes and movements. Jackie Chan need not apply.
Combat-wombat
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My mom is a pharmacist, and I've been trying for a long time to get her to apply for a carry permit. I even converted her from anti-gun and got her to buy a Sig 232, but it's useless if it's not with her when something happens. Pharmacy robberies are a real risk, and I'd like to see her protect herself.
Green Lantern
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Heh, another unfortunate sign that Ayoob's book on self-protection is growing a tad 'dated.' There's a story about an Indiana pharmacist who was executed by a robber even AFTER he complied.
The Indiana Pharmacists Association put up a huge reward for catching the killler, and it worked. They ALSO helped to arrange combat pistol shooting classes given by LEO instructors for pharmacists...
While it's POSSIBLE of associations getting reward money up these days, I never heard of it when a pharmacist was killed in his car in the parking lot a few years ago in a nearby city. And most corporate types would have a stroke if they heard that their pharmacists were taking gun classes - since I imagine that these days, guns are banned in ALL pharmacies. (Could be wrong tho...)
And strambo - thanks! (for your service to us all, AND your advice!
The Indiana Pharmacists Association put up a huge reward for catching the killler, and it worked. They ALSO helped to arrange combat pistol shooting classes given by LEO instructors for pharmacists...
While it's POSSIBLE of associations getting reward money up these days, I never heard of it when a pharmacist was killed in his car in the parking lot a few years ago in a nearby city. And most corporate types would have a stroke if they heard that their pharmacists were taking gun classes - since I imagine that these days, guns are banned in ALL pharmacies. (Could be wrong tho...)
And strambo - thanks! (for your service to us all, AND your advice!
situations like this are a bit hard to judge, but really i'd rather go out fighting than on my knees. sure, i might get shot, but if it doesnt kill me instantly that BG is going to be in for a HORRIBLE day...quite possibly his last too.
pharmacist
I have worked at CVS phramacy in the Washington DC metro area (MD, VA) for about 12 years, 6 as a pharmacist. i have never been robbed by anyone other than my employer.
two of the stores i worked in were robbed both times i was on vacation. both stores were very well run and well staffed. the two pharmacists that were robbed were robbed late at night, when staffing was at its lowest. both robberies took less than 3 or 4 minutes, and tboth robbers used a handgun. (the pharmacists involved know nothing about guns and were so scared they could not remember anything). the robbers ordered all employees in the pharmacy to their knees facing the back of the store. they all followed his instructions without question.
they knew were the narcotics were kept and had information about narcotics not in the safe (they had info that the general public does not).
This and more detail leads me to believe that the robber or robbers had practiced doing this, had worked out the details, were not using narcotis but selling, had watched the store for weeks, and had worked out all of the details and different scenarios.
so i wonder does the fact that they were methodical and practiced in their robberies increae or decrease the chances of them shooting the next pharmacist if he tries to resist?
since i live in Maryland and work in Virginia i looked into getting a CCW in MD and my chances of getting that are about the same as Saddam getting one.
I have worked at CVS phramacy in the Washington DC metro area (MD, VA) for about 12 years, 6 as a pharmacist. i have never been robbed by anyone other than my employer.
two of the stores i worked in were robbed both times i was on vacation. both stores were very well run and well staffed. the two pharmacists that were robbed were robbed late at night, when staffing was at its lowest. both robberies took less than 3 or 4 minutes, and tboth robbers used a handgun. (the pharmacists involved know nothing about guns and were so scared they could not remember anything). the robbers ordered all employees in the pharmacy to their knees facing the back of the store. they all followed his instructions without question.
they knew were the narcotics were kept and had information about narcotics not in the safe (they had info that the general public does not).
This and more detail leads me to believe that the robber or robbers had practiced doing this, had worked out the details, were not using narcotis but selling, had watched the store for weeks, and had worked out all of the details and different scenarios.
so i wonder does the fact that they were methodical and practiced in their robberies increae or decrease the chances of them shooting the next pharmacist if he tries to resist?
since i live in Maryland and work in Virginia i looked into getting a CCW in MD and my chances of getting that are about the same as Saddam getting one.
Either "neither" or decreases the chance they'd shoot due to a poor, less effective form of resistance. Probably anticipate that (some resistance) if they are semi-skilled. I don't think there are any truly professional robbers like in "Heat". Stakes to high to be worth it. There are truly professional burglars...you won't need to fear violence from them, they'll split.
I wouldn't bet they are just selling and not using (something). The vast majority of violent crimes are committed under the influence of drugs, alcohol being one of them. Hopefully, you would have a sense of the situation to differentiate between good tactics for robbery (on knees facing out to immobilize and prevent too much observation) vs. poor tacics for robbery, but setting you up to be executed (taking the time to make them go in the back room). Always resisting isn't the answer any more than always submitting is. Judge each situation on its own evaluating as it goes, retain options. Training and tools are about having options, not canned responses based on pre-concieved notions.
Good post somoss, good info, stay safe.
SpookyPistolero
Member
I work in a pharmacy as well, and it's a tough situation if someone presents with a weapon. A pharmacy ends up being designed such that you can't easily get across the counter, for obvious reasons, but also such that patients have a pretty decent view of what's going on behind the counter.
I carry a small KISS folder in my right pocket, and my extremely female coworkers have repeatedly called it my 'switchblade' when I use it to open a box,etc. My head pharmacist has taken to reminding me that it's not allowed in the store. Yet there it stays... It sucks when people try to force you to be impotent.
It makes me tempted to start my own store so I don't have to worry about defying corporate policy just to carry. It's an uncomfortable situation because you have items of such value to scum, not to mention scum that you've managed to piss off during your day.
At the very least, a person ought to have something in their bag for when they're walking to and from their car in the evening/morning.
I carry a small KISS folder in my right pocket, and my extremely female coworkers have repeatedly called it my 'switchblade' when I use it to open a box,etc. My head pharmacist has taken to reminding me that it's not allowed in the store. Yet there it stays... It sucks when people try to force you to be impotent.
It makes me tempted to start my own store so I don't have to worry about defying corporate policy just to carry. It's an uncomfortable situation because you have items of such value to scum, not to mention scum that you've managed to piss off during your day.
At the very least, a person ought to have something in their bag for when they're walking to and from their car in the evening/morning.
Green Lantern
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Man - a LOT of fellow pharmacy-type people in here!
...maybe because once you get into pharmacy you start to feel "vulnerable."
I don't know if running your own store is the answer - sure, YOU dictate carry policy. But unless you have a partner or work limited hours, you won't have time to practice at the range - or do anything ELSE besides work!
I mentioned my folding knife, some co-workers joke about it but no one has given me any real greif over carrying it. Even though I guess it IS a "weapon..." I just use it like you, those boxes of Rx labels and bags don't open THEMSELVES. And those idiot-designed "box cutters" they have (More or less a razorblade in a metal sleeve!) are "Workers Comp" waiting to happen!
Then again, the first Glock I saw was in a pharmacist's vehicle up there, he showed me his "car defense system" one night!. And one assistant manager brought in his .454 Casull revolver one Sunday to show us!
...I should note that neither of them are there anymore. Though not due to any of that. Maybe there's something to this "fitting a round peg in a SQUARE hole!"
...maybe because once you get into pharmacy you start to feel "vulnerable."
I don't know if running your own store is the answer - sure, YOU dictate carry policy. But unless you have a partner or work limited hours, you won't have time to practice at the range - or do anything ELSE besides work!
I mentioned my folding knife, some co-workers joke about it but no one has given me any real greif over carrying it. Even though I guess it IS a "weapon..." I just use it like you, those boxes of Rx labels and bags don't open THEMSELVES. And those idiot-designed "box cutters" they have (More or less a razorblade in a metal sleeve!) are "Workers Comp" waiting to happen!
Then again, the first Glock I saw was in a pharmacist's vehicle up there, he showed me his "car defense system" one night!. And one assistant manager brought in his .454 Casull revolver one Sunday to show us!
...I should note that neither of them are there anymore. Though not due to any of that. Maybe there's something to this "fitting a round peg in a SQUARE hole!"
James T Thomas
Member
odds of it raining today
The odds or statistics are abstract mathematical concepts.
To quote a great American: "Do you feel lucky today, well do you...punk?"
I would not bet my life on chance, nor on the fact of what robbers did nearly fourty years ago. Times have changed, and the criminal element have grown cold, callused, and often bezerk.
Nor would I base my actions on any read of a robbers facial expression.
Nor would I base my actions on the hope that I could depend on assistance from cowokers or bystanders either.
Adapt and overcome.
The odds or statistics are abstract mathematical concepts.
To quote a great American: "Do you feel lucky today, well do you...punk?"
I would not bet my life on chance, nor on the fact of what robbers did nearly fourty years ago. Times have changed, and the criminal element have grown cold, callused, and often bezerk.
Nor would I base my actions on any read of a robbers facial expression.
Nor would I base my actions on the hope that I could depend on assistance from cowokers or bystanders either.
Adapt and overcome.
thexrayboy
Member
What to do when someone points a gun at you is always a huge question mark in the what if wars. You can never really plan for a perfect contingency scenario because of all the variables. However one factor that must always be remembered is the theory of the secondary crime scene. LEO will tell you that you may die at the primary crime scene but if you voluntarily accompany a criminal to a secondary crime scene your chances of survival drop dramatically. For me this means if the bad guy tries to get me to go anywhere, in a car, down the street or into another room he has plans and they are not benevolent ones. Act accordingly.
WOW Cpileri - I can't believe you wrote that .... I agree 100% some times you just have to except that you are going to get hurt but you have to go for it!
Not the best situation and it would be better if your senses forewarned you but sometimes the BG gets in a sucker punch and all you can do is lay down or fight back. Sort of a no win situation but it ngives you a chance.
Not the best situation and it would be better if your senses forewarned you but sometimes the BG gets in a sucker punch and all you can do is lay down or fight back. Sort of a no win situation but it ngives you a chance.
TonyB
Member
I work in a retail pharmacy part time as a tech.I've decided my $10/hr isn't worth any drugs..so I'll give up the merch.,but no one is getting killed on my shift either....if he doesn't leave after getting the money or drugs,all bets are off.
Company policy is no weapons.......but I'm not always a "company man"
Company policy is no weapons.......but I'm not always a "company man"
progunner1957
member
A HANDGUN?!?!?
In D.C.?!?!? That can't be! D.C. is a gun free zone!LOL!! Good one!
smitty03
Member
Ok, I thought some of you guys were a little overzealous with the aprehensive feeling of pharmacies. And not being naive, I realize the abundance of "top shelf" painkillers at such a busines and am well aware of the fact the we have plenty of junkies/meth-heads in our area... but I go to the Walgreens 2x per month to pick up meds for my daughter and that place is always crowded...
Fast forward to this mornings newspaper- My Walgreens was robbed at knife point the other night... I go online to Google it and found many other recent incidents such as this- and all from Walgreens in my area. Good thing they have a drive-thru... Not as easy to run that Glock with a baby in my arms! (Maybe I could hide her in the stuffed animals...)
Fast forward to this mornings newspaper- My Walgreens was robbed at knife point the other night... I go online to Google it and found many other recent incidents such as this- and all from Walgreens in my area. Good thing they have a drive-thru... Not as easy to run that Glock with a baby in my arms! (Maybe I could hide her in the stuffed animals...)
kengrubb
Member
Jim Cirillo told the account of two Stake Out Squad guys (not Cirillo and Bill Allard) who were working a pharmacy. One was supposed to be watching while the other rested, ate, slept, took a leak, whatever. The two of 'em took a pizza break together sitting down, back to the counter.
First hint of trouble was the cashier backing up, hands raised. A clue. They knew they were being hit. Then the pharmacist is backing up, hands raised. They stand and about 3 feet from the gunman, shove the pharmacist outta the way, and yell "Police! Drop it!" Gunman shoots once hitting one of the cops. Blam. They return fire. Blam-blam-blam-blam-blam-blam-blam-blam-blam-blam-blam. 11 rounds of .38 Special into the face of the BG--albeit that weak 158 grain standard pressure RNL crud. BG is down, so they radio it in.
"Armed robbery. Shots fired. Officer down. Subject is a black male, approximately 35 years of age."
From the grave, the wounded BG lying on the floor responds, "Heh Man, I ain't no 35 years old. I'm only 27."
The wounded cop was, in Cirillo's words, "hairy like an ape". The other cop goes and gets a cotton swab, rips open the wounded cop's shirt to look for the entry wound, and in searching thru all the belly hair the pharmacist later observed that it looked like one ape grooming another ape. Cop cannot find the entry wound, so he goes and retrieves the BG's gun for a closer look. Starter pistol.
10 minutes later rescue arrives, and the wounded BG walks to the ambulance under his own power.
I don't do this story justice because I thought I was gonna wet myself laughing when Cirillo told it.
First hint of trouble was the cashier backing up, hands raised. A clue. They knew they were being hit. Then the pharmacist is backing up, hands raised. They stand and about 3 feet from the gunman, shove the pharmacist outta the way, and yell "Police! Drop it!" Gunman shoots once hitting one of the cops. Blam. They return fire. Blam-blam-blam-blam-blam-blam-blam-blam-blam-blam-blam. 11 rounds of .38 Special into the face of the BG--albeit that weak 158 grain standard pressure RNL crud. BG is down, so they radio it in.
"Armed robbery. Shots fired. Officer down. Subject is a black male, approximately 35 years of age."
From the grave, the wounded BG lying on the floor responds, "Heh Man, I ain't no 35 years old. I'm only 27."
The wounded cop was, in Cirillo's words, "hairy like an ape". The other cop goes and gets a cotton swab, rips open the wounded cop's shirt to look for the entry wound, and in searching thru all the belly hair the pharmacist later observed that it looked like one ape grooming another ape. Cop cannot find the entry wound, so he goes and retrieves the BG's gun for a closer look. Starter pistol.
10 minutes later rescue arrives, and the wounded BG walks to the ambulance under his own power.
I don't do this story justice because I thought I was gonna wet myself laughing when Cirillo told it.
strambo said;
Actually there are. Several years ago there was an armed robbery (either bank or armored car facility) where the suspects were believed to be either from a good military unit or even a SWAT team to my knowledge they were never caught. Platt and Matix of the infamous Miami FBI shootout trained for what they did.
Jeff
Actually there are. Several years ago there was an armed robbery (either bank or armored car facility) where the suspects were believed to be either from a good military unit or even a SWAT team to my knowledge they were never caught. Platt and Matix of the infamous Miami FBI shootout trained for what they did.
Jeff
Welcome to THR, donger8.
Jeff,
Wasn't there a big robbery in Scandanavia a couple of years ago that looked a lot like a professional team with automatic weapons did the job?
Jeff,
Wasn't there a big robbery in Scandanavia a couple of years ago that looked a lot like a professional team with automatic weapons did the job?
Borachon
Member
Put on the ski mask. Rush in and shoot any cameras I see with my sawed off shotgun. Yell at the clerk to put his hands up. And tell everyone that if they touch the alarm they'll regret it!
Oh...you meant what to do if you are BEING robbed. My bad.
Oh...you meant what to do if you are BEING robbed. My bad.
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