Vern Humphrey
Member
The same whining complaint used by shirkers in every way -- the Civil War, WWI, WWII, Korea, Viet Nam. "Well, I'd fight a different war, but not this war."
Be all you can be.
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The same whining complaint used by shirkers in every way -- the Civil War, WWI, WWII, Korea, Viet Nam. "Well, I'd fight a different war, but not this war."
I am not anti-war if my country needs me I will go, even to Iraq. I'm not saying that just because I know the military would have little use of a 55 year old man. 
Iraq was the wrong country to invade, it has cost us to much in many ways.
Old Vet, I understand. I was told to take my uniform off before going home.
please remember a disagreement dose not mean disrespect..
Iraq was the wrong country to invade, it has cost us to much in many ways.Old Vet, I understand. I was told to take my uniform off before going home.
please remember a disagreement dose not mean disrespect..
benewton
Member
"Hell no. Conscripts are crap. I would never want to work in that environment. I am so glad that my fellow Marines were all volunteers."
Certainly now, but, in 1971, having been told I was responsible for my own actions, then getting a draft lot number around 125, I "enlisted" in the Army, taking three years and the medic MOS.
While on the final line at the medical outprocessing station, I, along with five or six others, was told that I was now a Marine!
Lucky that I had a COPY of the original document along to prove that not to be the case...
Still got screwed, of course, but later did 4 NG years, since sometimes I never learn, and some things, while painful, are at least partially fun.
By the way, for you herd guys, what this "Army of one" crap?
Certainly now, but, in 1971, having been told I was responsible for my own actions, then getting a draft lot number around 125, I "enlisted" in the Army, taking three years and the medic MOS.
While on the final line at the medical outprocessing station, I, along with five or six others, was told that I was now a Marine!
Lucky that I had a COPY of the original document along to prove that not to be the case...
Still got screwed, of course, but later did 4 NG years, since sometimes I never learn, and some things, while painful, are at least partially fun.
By the way, for you herd guys, what this "Army of one" crap?
Vern Humphrey
Member
The men who are fighting there, who see what goes on first hand, and don't get their news strained through the MSM disagree.
They are proud of what they are doing. Who are we to call them wrong?
Late to the fray gentlemen, let me say this to all of you who have served, THANK YOU. WELCOME HOME. JOB WELL DONE. All of our military boys (and girls) make me extremely proud. I attempted to join and was given a no thank you from Uncle Sam due to a high frequency hearing loss (birth defect). I however now feel that I can help by being the best supporter of the men and women that are able to serve and do so, willingly or reluctantly. I tell anyone that asks what they should do after high school to join the military, learn a trade if possible, get some money for school and learn discipline. The new generation could use a little of all of the above.
Oleg Volk
Moderator Emeritus
So what are the ethics of coercing someone into dangerous conduct (killing others and being exposed to death or injury in return) for "a good cause"?
GoRon
Member
Are you referring to our soldiers now or under a draft?
bogie
Member
Oh, ferchrissake.
How many of you speak German?
How many speak Japanese?
How many speak Russian? (besides Oleg?)
I'm sick of people saying that "all war is bad." Sometimes they're necessary, and we've thankfully got one of the best trained/equipped forces out there.
Of course, I think that there are more than a few people who could deal with Hitler being in power, as long as there was cable TV, professional sports, and they lived upwind of the processing plants...
How many of you speak German?
How many speak Japanese?
How many speak Russian? (besides Oleg?)
I'm sick of people saying that "all war is bad." Sometimes they're necessary, and we've thankfully got one of the best trained/equipped forces out there.
Of course, I think that there are more than a few people who could deal with Hitler being in power, as long as there was cable TV, professional sports, and they lived upwind of the processing plants...
ebd10
Member
Y'know Vern, this post would be funny if it weren't so tragically prevalent in America today. I mean, first you indict anyone who disagrees with you or the war in Iraq as "shirkers" and then you proceed to list the very reasons that parents and young people should avoid blindly following the government.
Civil War? Lincoln practically suspended the Constitution to continue the war. He lied to the general public about the great Cause of emancipating slaves. If he was serious, why didn't he emancipate the slaves in the North? Political expediency. If he freed northern slaves, he would have lost the support of slave owning Union states. Emancipation had nothing to do with it, Lincoln knew the war was unpopular and was losing political support.
WWI: Wilson runs on a platform of promising not to get us involved in what was largely viewed as another in a string of endless European conflict, and by 1917, when the SOLDIERS of the belligerents were beginning to mutiny and refuse to fight, we show up and it's "game on" again. Our presence, inspired by the fact that big business was afraid of taking the huge losses they faced if Germany won, prolonged that war. And young men died.
WWII: Largely an extension of WWI, it was well-known that American businesses had lobbied for the military to avoid bombing certain targets within Hitler's Europe because they held huge financial interests in those areas. Had we gone ahead and bombed them, the war may have been shortened considerably. Yet, the politicians caved to pressure from big business and young men died.
Korea: This one hits home for me because my father served in this one. A UN debacle that resulted in what amounted to a "die for a tie" war. This would be the initial conflict whichg would highlight the hallmarks of the UN: corruption, incompetence, and lack of resolve.
Vietnam: A war predicated on the Gulf of Tonkin incident. An incident which never took place, yet was sold to the American public as the reason for jumping into SE Asia, and feeding young men and women into the military until eleven years and 57000 lives later, we decide to settle for "peace with honor".
THESE are the examples of the noble causes that you say we should use as reasons to support our current foreign policy? I see them as examples of why we should never again trust politicians with such important decisions as where to send our military.
But instead, we get a bunch of 60's retread slogans like "Love it or Leave it" spewed by a bunch of sycophants who are unable to come up with valid repudiations for arguments against the war, but continue worshipping at the Altar of Bush.
But don't take my word for it, take the words of a man who was twice awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor:
General Smedley Butler
Uh-oh, not the ethics thing. I don't believe that placing ones self or others in harms way is ever a good cause. But there is a duty to ones country that needs to be. Unfortunately, politics has invaded the definition of good cause and probably will never be taken out of the equation. This makes it very hard to agree what a good cause is or is not. Too many times, personal interests get in the way of sound judgement. Very good question Oleg. Any help on the answer? Maybe there isn't really a good answer to be had?
Vern Humphrey
Member
It's prevalent because so many of us remember how that kind of crap killed so many of our generation. We remember what it was like to come home wounded and be treated like dirt. We remember fighting and winning a war, and having the victory given to the enemy by a bunch of self-serving shirkers.
In other words, it's prevalent because it's true -- and I have the bullet holes to prove it.
GoRon
Member
It appears you are against all of our military engagements from the past until present.
I see ad hominum and name calling but no alternative solution. Unless you mean do nothing as a solution, wait for the threat to reach our shores.
Vern Humphrey
Member
That's exactly right. And when the threat is here, they'll blame everyone but themselves for it -- 'cause they sure as heck won't fight!
ebd10
Member
Yeah, and if you check, those "self-serving shirkers" were probably your elected officials. Yet you think that we should just blindly follow people of that ilk into another war just because the symbol of their party happens to be an elephant instead of an ass?
That's what makes your attitude so astonishing. You went, you fought in what was sold to you as a noble cause, and you came home to scorn and derision. Then the president, a member of the same party as our current C in C, basically walks away from the whole mess, and leaves thousands to be slaughtered by the Commies. Yes, I know that the political pressure came from the left, but the question remains; Why should we trust ANY of them? It won't be their kids doing the fighting and the dying.
There's something we had better consider before the next election; no matter which party takes power, no matter how many of or rights are eliminated, no matter how many onerous laws they enact, they don't care because the system isn't broke for them . They have set themselves up as the new royalty. They aren't subject to the same laws, punishments, or infringements on their rights as the average citizen.
And these are the people that I am supposed to encourage my children to serve under?
Vern Humphrey
Member
A good many are right here, posting on this thread -- and using that for cover.
Only to those who weren't there. I saw what people like that did to many of my friends -- most of whom are now dead or badly cripped because of lazy Jane Fonda types.
No_Brakes23
Member
+1. If my son or daughter choose to enlist or receive a commision, I will support them. But I will discourage them from doing so until they make that decision.
Vern Humphrey, I respect your service in 'Nam, but I don't know why you can't accept that some folks are patriots, willing to serve, that disagree with some of the things we do.
Vern Humphrey
Member
Because I have seen how they have killed American soldiers.
ebd10
Member
Not totally. Our actions in WWI made our inviolvement in WWII inevitable. Hitler was an evil that needed to be stomped out, as were the Japanese. I question whether it was a good idea to abandon the men on Bataan and Correigidor in favor of supporting Europe, but that's a subject for another thread. Stemming the tide of Communism is always a noble cause. However, history shows that anytime we enter into a war with the intention of holding the line instead of total annihilation of the enemy, it turns into a political football that divides the country.
The current conflict is a perfect example. The reasons for invading Iraq kept changing. That in itself indicates weakness on the part of the administration. Add to that that we spent 4 months telegraphing our move, giving Hussein time to eliminate or move anything that might have justified invasion, and top it off with the fact that, whether coincidentally or on purpose, the Bush administration seems to be populated with a lot of people that have ties to those companies that stand to profit from this action, and the whole thing starts to smell funny.
GoRon
Member
All the reasons stated all along are in the Iraq War Resolution
Revisionist history has hit a torrid pace.
Just about every intelligence agency on the planet believed Iraq had and was developing WMDs. That is the primary reason it was talked up so much leading up to the war, it was considered a "slam dunk".
If you read the text above there is litany of reasons above and beyond WMDs.
Vern Humphrey
Member
And the purpose is to enable the leftists to recapture the Congress and the Presidency, and get their agenda back on track -- including gun confiscation.
bjbarron
Member
Hmmm. Except the 3 million+ people (excluding war dead) who died after we pulled out. Good job Cronkite. Nicely done MSM. WooHoo Hanoi Jane...nice pictures.
I got out in '72. My dad got out in '45. Granddad got out in '20. Great Uncle got out in 1898. My oldest got out in '94 and my middle son got out in '96. All of us, except my boys, came home with scars.
BJ Clinton or curious George don't mean nothin'. I didn't enlist for LBJ...and the oath I swore was to the constitution. Doing nothing is an option that always comes back to bite you on the a$$.
EmGeeGeorge
Member
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Join the Navy... Go in as a BM, or GM... travel, go whoring in foreign lands... Work on a gun crew once and a while... Do your service. I spent a bit of time in the gulf, mostly sea-side, thankfully, and I met alot of army and marine folks who I think would re-think their choices after seeing some of the madness they encountered... Urban warfare is nasty. I think that going to Iraq was wrong and ill-considered, but now the country must be stabilized to prevent it from becoming another Afganistan. The Gov't needs to start being more honest about the whys, whats, whos, and wheres of the conflict... I think the scary part comes when Iran comes into the picture; If they decide that Iran is the next country that needs democracy, standby for a world war, in my opinion. The idea of giving democracy to Iraq's long-suffering people is a joke. We go to bed every night with Saudi Tyrants, Pakistani dictators, and Kuwaiti extortionists. We need to start approaching things as a surgeon would. Stop the hemmoraging and fix the immediate damage; don't start digging in other places...
The mid-east is not europe, it isn't asia, and it certainly isn't America. It is the closest thing to another planet you will find... It is pretty from the water side though.
Coasties have a pretty good life too, though.
The mid-east is not europe, it isn't asia, and it certainly isn't America. It is the closest thing to another planet you will find... It is pretty from the water side though.
Coasties have a pretty good life too, though.
Sometimes, folks here make me really wonder.
Oleg, what did your family do during the Great Patriotic War, pray tell? I'd wager they were somewhat engaged in the struggle, right?
I've spent 20+ years in the USAF. I'm proud of every one of those years. I got an advanced degree, excellent health care, and experience which will probably keep me in 6-figures later next year when I transition to the civilian sector. I've seen things that people shouldn't and were never meant to see. (Mass graves in Serbia, for one) I've flown through Chernobyl's radioactive cloud and tracked it to prevent unprotected commercial airliners from flying through it. I've been to Iraq, and unlike what's reported Daily Kos, Democratic Underground, and (unfortunately) THR, I've met many, many Iraqis who were tickled pink with the changes in their country. I'll give you a hint, they know now they aren't going to be fed into a paper shredder head-first.
I wish I'd known that the stuff my recruiter told me was a big lie, and I wish I'd contacted Oleg before I joined up so I wouldn't become a cog in a big political propoganda machine. All this time, I thought the unit citations and thank-you letters from national policy makers were because my agency was doing something to make a difference since 1947. Silly me, I could just kick myself now.
Sometimes, this forum just plain disgusts me. Now is one of those times.
Oleg, what did your family do during the Great Patriotic War, pray tell? I'd wager they were somewhat engaged in the struggle, right?
I've spent 20+ years in the USAF. I'm proud of every one of those years. I got an advanced degree, excellent health care, and experience which will probably keep me in 6-figures later next year when I transition to the civilian sector. I've seen things that people shouldn't and were never meant to see. (Mass graves in Serbia, for one) I've flown through Chernobyl's radioactive cloud and tracked it to prevent unprotected commercial airliners from flying through it. I've been to Iraq, and unlike what's reported Daily Kos, Democratic Underground, and (unfortunately) THR, I've met many, many Iraqis who were tickled pink with the changes in their country. I'll give you a hint, they know now they aren't going to be fed into a paper shredder head-first.
I wish I'd known that the stuff my recruiter told me was a big lie, and I wish I'd contacted Oleg before I joined up so I wouldn't become a cog in a big political propoganda machine. All this time, I thought the unit citations and thank-you letters from national policy makers were because my agency was doing something to make a difference since 1947. Silly me, I could just kick myself now.
Sometimes, this forum just plain disgusts me. Now is one of those times.
GoRon
Member
True enough.
But human nature is human nature. If democracy takes root in Iraq it will be an object lesson to all in the middle east.
It is one thing for them to envy the prosperity and freedom of western nations. If a nieghbor becomes prosperous and free from tyranny they will say "why not us also"?
No doubt it hasn't been and will not be easy establishing a functioning "democracy" in Iraq. The pay off will be huge if we persevere.
At least up till this point "free" nations don't have much of a track record of going to war with one another. The more people are freed from despots the better off we are. Especially when they control the life blood of our economies.
A free people will act in their own self interest. Going to war against the relatively benign lone superpower with the most powerful military in the history of mankind is not in their self interest.
No_Brakes23
Member
I am a patriot, I DID serve, but I have not killed any American soldiers. Your argument doesn't even make sense.
Your "My country right or wrong" argument would have made you a Torry during the American revolution and a Nazi in WW2 era Germany.
Are you seriously suggesting that the U.S. Govt is incapable of doing anything wrong ever?
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