Best Home Defense Rifle?

[strambo]

Objectively, I think the best would be an 8" 300BLK AR with a suppressor, RDS, light and sling.

 

[35 Whelen]

I use my rifles more than just when someone breaks in. That's the case for a lot of people with $2k+ rifles. It's not about just dumping money into "the best" for the sake of having it in an emergency. Having something that can deal with weekly use and 1-2k rounds a year is important. The cost of the gun just doesn't factor into my decision when I'm buying something that is going to do more than be a toy.

Understood. But the OP is asking about acquiring a 10" AR strictly for HD. What on earth other use is there for a 10" AR???

So I could certainly get a cheap 357 lever gun for HD, set it up how I want, and devote a lot of money and time into learning the rifle and making sure it runs... But why, when I have the time and familiarity with options that give nothing up to that 357?

If you already have an AR and you want to use it for HD, then go ahead, but that's not the context of the OP. Again, he's inquiring about a rifle strictly for HD.

And don't get too comfortable throwing 357 lead all over the place... a 125gr load moving 2000 fps out of a carbine isn't that dissimilar to a 7.62x39 load at 60-75 yards. Knowing where you're shooting is critical no matter what you use.

If you're talking about over penetration, that would be the least of my worries. The larger the frontal area of a bullet, the less the penetration. I've proven that to myself time and again..

Who says no one is using their HD rifles for more than just HD?

The OP.

Not sure I understand your post? You say you don't understand spending the $ for a better HD weapon and yet own better weapons for HD already (the 16" AR) yet don't use it because the likelyhood is remote? Why did you spend hundreds of dollars on rifle(s) you don't even use for HD or hunting, just to have it? (Perfectly fine w/ me, you are the one saying the cost isn't worth it for a dedicated HD rifle, not me).

"Better" is relative. I don't believe for a nanosecond an AR is better. To me it's a one-size-fits-all chosen by our military. Equal, maybe, but when I go out to kill something during hunting season that's roughly the same size as a human being the AR, and especially the .223, is at the bottom of my list. I understand everyone's love for the AR, but just because it's popular doesn't mean it's better. Funny how we gun owners distrust the government in all things except choice of firearms and cartridges chambered therein. I spent the money because the .357's were what I chose for CAS for my wife. After acquiring the .357's I began carrying it around the place (It lays nicely on the dash of my little Nissan when I'm cruising about the pasture.) and even used it a couple of years ago for spring turkey. It's a nice little utility rifle. My 20" AR was built for the purpose of competing in High Power competition. The 16" was built just to "have", as an investment, if you will, due to our current political environment.

Sure, the chance is remote, and yet if it does happen, wouldn't you want to fight for your life with the best option available? An AR with an RDS and light, is light years ahead of an iron-sighted lever action when it comes to a chaotic, up-close fight in the dark.

I personally don't shoot at things in the dark, nor should anyone.

Oh, why a rifle for in the home? Better terminal performance with lower recoil and less penetration through walls, at least in the case of 5.56/.223.

Rifle, with a 10" barrel??? Sorry, but that's a pistol with a buttstock.

What if you already bought the rifle because you like to shoot it, and its eminent suitability for HD (precision, reserve capacity, limited penetration) is just a plus? I didn't buy my AR strictly for HD, but it certainly serves well for the defensive standby role.

But he hasn't already bought, that's the context of the OP.

No worse than firing a short-ish 12-gauge in the house, or a 4" 9mm/.40/.45, and less loud/blasty than firing a .357 revolver. Assuming you don't use a muzzle brake on the .223, of course; a brake will make a .223 almost as loud as a .357 snubbie.

Actually it is. Even a 12 gauge firing 1 oz.+ of lead uses quite a bit less powder than a .223, under 20 grs. In fact any of the cartridges you mention use significantly less powder than the .223. I know this because I load for the .223, 9mm, 45ACP and 12 ga. If you don't believe me in regards to the noise, go out and fire 50 or so rounds of .223 then the same amount of 12 ga. and let me know which rings your ears the worst.

Personally I'd want more ammo on tap than a lever gun or shotgun offers. Trained personnel (cops) have a hit rate of 10-15%. If you've only got 6-8 to rounds at the ready there's a good chance you never land one anywhere on the target, much less a vital zone.

If you have never played paintball or airsoft you should, that'll give you an appreciation of how hard it is to hit someone that doesn't want to be shot, even at close distance. In fact, whatever gun you use for HD/CCW, it might not be a bad idea to buy the airsoft replica and try to recruit a volunteer to play bad guy around the house and you try to shoot them at close distance. You'll miss a lot more than you hit.

Then you need a shotgun. I don't find it especially difficult to put a half dozen pellets in a fist-size target jetting by 30 or 35 yds. out.

I hunt enough and have killed enough living, breathing creatures in the last 40+ years to know a .22 caliber bullet is marginal on stuff that exceeds 100 lbs. The bigger the hole starts out, the better.

35W

 

[Inebriated]

Understood. But the OP is asking about acquiring a 10" AR strictly for HD. What on earth other use is there for a 10" AR???

Pig shooting, close range deer, competition, backpacking companion, a gun that's easy to store, etc. When TSX's open up at 1800 fps, and 11" barrels (my recommendation specifically because I've looked at the velocity numbers for SBR's) are able to easily send a 70gr at over 2400 at the muzzle (actual chrono data), I would have zero reservation employing that setup in the same roles that I'd use a 16"... just keep the ranges closer. I've seen deer shot with less than ideal .223 loads from 16" barrels, a premium bullet from an 11.5" that is well within it's operating window will be fine.

If you already have an AR and you want to use it for HD, then go ahead, but that's not the context of the OP. Again, he's inquiring about a rifle strictly for HD.

Fair enough, but to my first point, frequent training with a rifle suited specifically to HD is a strong use case on its own. My other point was that it doesn't have to be strictly for HD.

 

[briansmithwins]

Understood. But the OP is asking about acquiring a 10" AR strictly for HD. What on earth other use is there for a 10" AR???

People I shoot rifle matches with bring out 10" SBR rifles pretty frequently. The smaller size is handy and doesn't affect accuracy. You do lose velocity, of course.

I personally don't shoot at things in the dark, nor should anyone.

It must be nice to be 100% confident that you'll never need to shoot anything in less than ideal conditions.

Not all shooting happens on a known distance range, on sunny days with good weather.

BSW

 

[Theohazard]

The larger the frontal area of a bullet, the less the penetration.

This is not necessarily true, there are other factors at play, also. For example, a .223 JHP will penetrate a lot less than a .45 ACP or even a .357 Magnum JHP, especially through walls.

 

[evtSmtx]

well, if the AR platform is a must have, I guess 338 LM is out of the question

 

[strambo]

I personally don't shoot at things in the dark, nor should anyone.

Then, how would you handle a HD situation that happens at night with your lever action? How would you positively ID the threat, aim the weapon, and handle the situation?

Wouldn't a weapon mounted light as well as a sight that is just as fast in low light and daylight be an advantage? (once positive ID is made). Wouldn't a sight that does not require an exact cheek weld allowing for awkward shooting positions be a benefit in a dynamic HD environment?

A lever action makes that tough, but you could find a way to mount a RDS and light to it. I would argue at that point it would be the equal of an AR or similar weapon for the task.

AR with irons and no light vs. lever action with irons and no light for HD, yeah they are about the same, neither optimized for the task.

 

[35 Whelen]

When we built our house I wired it for electricity. Its pretty sweet as I made good use of 3 and 4 way switches. Therefore there are light switches on opposing sides of every doorway to every room in our house and switches at each end of the hall, as well as at the top and bottom of the stairs. And, as I'm sure most of us do, when I hear a strange noise in or about the house I first turn the lamp next to the bed on. Pretty simple.

Seems to me a flashlight is the perfect way to say "Aim here." to a bad guy. But anyway, enough of the endless HD fantasies. But I will add to those of you who are OK with shooting at noises in the dark(I'm not, because I have a family and couldn't live with myself if I hurt one of them), you might reconsider a shotgun as they increase your chances of hits.

35W

 

[Theohazard]

When we built our house I wired it for electricity. Its pretty sweet as I made good use of 3 and 4 way switches. Therefore there are light switches on opposing sides of every doorway to every room in our house and switches at each end of the hall, as well as at the top and bottom of the stairs. And, as I'm sure most of us do, when I hear a strange noise in or about the house I first turn the lamp next to the bed on. Pretty simple.

That sound like a great setup as long as your power is working. But you specifically said, "I personally don't shoot at things in the dark, nor should anyone." And that's a overly-broad statement considering I highly doubt most people have their light switches set up the way you do. And for those people, a flashlight makes the most sense.

Seems to me a flashlight is the perfect way to say "Aim here." to a bad guy.

It's also a good way to identify your target if you don't have another light source. Personally, I'd like to know if the person breaking into my house is a burglar or my just my teenage neighbor who got drunk and came home to the wrong house. Here's the thing: If you're worried that a flashlight will put you at a tactical disadvantage, you can always leave it off.

to those of you who are OK with shooting at noises in the dark

Nobody has advocated for that. But you're the one who came the closest when you advocated against having a flashlight.

you might reconsider a shotgun as they increase your chances of hits.

Not by much. Have you ever patterned buckshot at normal home-defense ranges?

 

[azrocks]

When we built our house I wired it for electricity. Its pretty sweet as I made good use of 3 and 4 way switches. Therefore there are light switches on opposing sides of every doorway to every room in our house and switches at each end of the hall, as well as at the top and bottom of the stairs. And, as I'm sure most of us do, when I hear a strange noise in or about the house I first turn the lamp next to the bed on. Pretty simple.

Seems to me a flashlight is the perfect way to say "Aim here." to a bad guy. But anyway, enough of the endless HD fantasies. But I will add to those of you who are OK with shooting at noises in the dark(I'm not, because I have a family and couldn't live with myself if I hurt one of them), you might reconsider a shotgun as they increase your chances of hits.

35W

A weapon-mounted light is not akin to 'shooting in the dark'. Have you ever used a quality lamp? Also, have you ever been on the other end of one?

There's PLENTY of light afforded by a good light. Especially indoors. And more importantly, it's on or off at a flick of a switch/button, whether you're standing by a wall switch or not.

If you turn your hall light on to ID a target, you both can see each other equally as well. If you aim a weapon-light at someone, you know what they see? BRIGHT LIGHT... and that's about it. Plus their night vision is now 100% hosed (where yours is somewhat less compromised).

Don't want to alert an intruder to your presence? Simple. Don't turn it on. You have the option with a light. Without a light you have no such options.

And what if you have to go outside of your dwelling? Do you have wall switches there?

Finally - the whole shotgun thing - at HD distances a shotgun offers you no more ability to hit a target than a carbine does. There's not going to be any significant spread.

EDIT: I see Theo pretty much said the exact same thing I did at the exact same time! Well-met, Theo

 

[Theohazard]

EDIT: I see Theo pretty much said the exact same thing I did at the exact same time! Well-met, Theo

Haha, nice! I'm a slow typer, so you must have started your response way after I did.

 

[M1key]

HD would include a WIDE variety of contingencies in my neighborhood. Not just my home, but older retired neighbors who might not be able to effectively defend themselves.

Also various potentially nasty, feral, or rabid skunks, coyotes, foxes, lions, and javelinas that inhabit the night. Good luck without that weapon light.

And ask the ranchers that live along the southern border. Most ride around with ARs in their vehicle day or night.

Good luck with YOUR fantasy, 35.

M

 

[RevJim]

Personally. I use a .38 Special for HD, with a Mod 870 short barreled/6 shot extended mag as backup. My "rifle";; if I could ever "get to it" ; is an AR in 6.8 SPC. However, it makes a great trunk gun! The rest of the time its a Glock 19. My "best" Early Alarm System is a 10yr old toy Pomeranian!

 

[35 Whelen]

That sound like a great setup as long as your power is working. But you specifically said, "I personally don't shoot at things in the dark, nor should anyone." And that's a overly-broad statement considering I highly doubt most people have their light switches set up the way you do. And for those people, a flashlight makes the most sense.

It's also a good way to identify your target if you don't have another light source. Personally, I'd like to know if the person breaking into my house is a burglar or my just my teenage neighbor who got drunk and came home to the wrong house. Here's the thing: If you're worried that a flashlight will put you at a tactical disadvantage, you can always leave it off.

Nobody has advocated for that. But you're the one who came the closest when you advocated against having a flashlight.

Originally Posted by strambo
Sure, the chance is remote, and yet if it does happen, wouldn't you want to fight for your life with the best option available? An AR with an RDS and light, is light years ahead of an iron-sighted lever action when it comes to a chaotic, up-close fight in the dark.

We can play the silly "but what if..." games until the thread is locked. I mean "what if" your flashlight malfunctions, or the batteries are dead? See what I mean??

My nearest neighbor is 3/4 mile away. It's over 300 yds. from my house to my gate at the road. Nobody "accidentally" enters my house at any time of the day or night. If you're worried about something as simple as a drunk neighbor entering your house inadvertently, lock your doors. Problem solved.

Not by much. Have you ever patterned buckshot at normal home-defense ranges?

Actually I have. I load my own shotshells, including buckshot and have patterned them as well as everything from #4 turkey loads down to #8 birdshot. What would you like to know? If you think a shotgun holds no advantage over a rifle at close range, you need to spend some time shooting.

HD would include a WIDE variety of contingencies in my neighborhood. Not just my home, but older retired neighbors who might not be able to effectively defend themselves.

Also various potentially nasty, feral, or rabid skunks, coyotes, foxes, lions, and javelinas that inhabit the night. Good luck without that weapon light.

You probably haven't figure it out, but I don't have a neighborhood. I live in a rural area. To put it into perspective, the property that borders mine to the NW is almost 44 sections of land with not a single house on it. As such I have dealt with bobcats, foxes, javelina, deer, hogs, coyotes, raccoons, stray dogs and cats, hawks, owls, rattlesnakes and one really pissed off badger. Other than an instance when a stray dog was trying to breed my Border Collie, I've not had the need in the last 10 years to shoot an animal around my house, in the dark. Occasionally a coyote will get a little too close, but even that hasn't happened in a while.

What most city dwellers don't realize is these animals don't HAVE to be killed just because they're there, well...except the hogs, skunks and rattlesnakes, and certainly don't fall into the "home defense" category. A good stock dog around the house will eliminate 99% of problems with wild animals.

And ask the ranchers that live along the southern border. Most ride around with ARs in their vehicle day or night.

Good luck with YOUR fantasy, 35.

M

Funny you should mention that...

Last March I spent 5 days on a remote in ranch Terrell Co., Texas with three buddies of mine. The ranch is 22,000 acres, 20 miles/2 hours drive from the nearest paved road and is situated just a little north of the border. The only people I saw in that time were two border patrol agents and the rancher, who was also raised on the ranch. His constant companions in his pickup were an older S&W .22 revolver and an equally old and battered Model 94 Winchester chambered in 30-30. I know...it's a wonder he's made it these last 65 years!!

A couple of others hit the nail squarely on the head when they stated that the proper HD firearm depends on where you live and other situations. In rural areas firearms tend to be more utility in nature due to the large variety of expectations for their use.

Disclaimer- The preceding is not a fantasy, rather is direct experience. The author accepts no responsibility or liability for angst, anxiety, depression, disagreement, dysfunction, or any other emotions caused by the reading of the preceding.

35W

 

[Theohazard]

I mean "what if" your flashlight malfunctions, or the batteries are dead? See what I mean??

I actually don't see what you mean. Considering a flashlight can allow you to ID your target when no other light sources are available, and it can easily be turned off if the user feels it puts him at a tactical disadvantage, what possible downside can there be from having a flashlight mounted to your home defense weapon? Are you honestly saying that it's better to have no light at all and to be completely unable to ID your target rather than have a flashlight that might possibly fail? That argument makes no sense at all.

My nearest neighbor is 3/4 mile away. It's over 300 yds. from my house to my gate at the road. Nobody "accidentally" enters my house at any time of the day or night. If you're worried about something as simple as a drunk neighbor entering your house inadvertently, lock your doors. Problem solved.

Not everybody lives in the same situation that you do. Your posts haven't been limited to recommendations to people in your situation, you've been recommending things for everyone: "I personally don't shoot at things in the dark, nor should anyone." It seems you're using your specific situation as a reason to recommend that everyone do things the way you do. But not everyone lives in the same situation you do.

For example, I live in a wood-framed house that has neighbors nearby in two directions. I'm worried about over-penetration, which is why I prefer a rifle in .223 over buckshot or pistol rounds, both of which both tend to over-penetrate far more. And my house is a rental, so I can't set up the light switches the way you do. Also, my front door is rather flimsy and is mostly thin glass, so it would be fairly easy for a drunk person to break in if they thought they were at the right house and were angry that their key didn't work for some reason (a situation that occurs periodically; my wife dealt first-hand with the aftermath of a situation just like it).

Not by much. Have you ever patterned buckshot at normal home-defense ranges?

Actually I have. I load my own shotshells, including buckshot and have patterned them as well as everything from #4 turkey loads down to #8 birdshot. What would you like to know? If you think a shotgun holds no advantage over a rifle at close range, you need to spend some time shooting.

I never said that at all. That's twice now in two posts that you've pulled out a strawman argument. My point is that the spread of buckshot at home defense ranges is negligible enough to make aiming just as important with a shotgun as a rifle. That's something you notice if you pattern common defensive shotgun loadings at those distances.

And ask the ranchers that live along the southern border. Most ride around with ARs in their vehicle day or night.

Good luck with YOUR fantasy, 35.

M

Funny you should mention that...

Actually, I didn't mention that. That's not my quote, that's M1key's quote.

 

[Inebriated]

We can play the silly "but what if..." games until the thread is locked. I mean "what if" your flashlight malfunctions, or the batteries are dead? See what I mean??

If the flashlight malfunctions, or if the light is an "aim here" sign, the onus to ID whose life I might take is still on me no matter what. I will do what I can to mitigate my chances of being shot (which means knowing how to use a light), and I also accept that risk to avoid shooting someone who shouldn't be shot. And what if your .30-30 is unloaded? Maintenance extends to all parts of the gun, including lights.

My nearest neighbor is 3/4 mile away. It's over 300 yds. from my house to my gate at the road. Nobody "accidentally" enters my house at any time of the day or night.

Good for you. That situation likely applies to no one else here.

If you're worried about something as simple as a drunk neighbor entering your house inadvertently, lock your doors. Problem solved.

Exactly. Might as well get rid of the gun, too. After all, we have locks and it's just a simple drunk neighbor.

If you think a shotgun holds no advantage over a rifle at close range, you need to spend some time shooting.

That's a bold statement to make, considering I doubt you know how often Theohazard shoots or what kind of shooting he does.

A couple of others hit the nail squarely on the head when they stated that the proper HD firearm depends on where you live and other situations.

Then why are you fighting so hard to strike down everyone else's point or experience? You're calling any discussion a "fantasy", and then turn around and say you have hundreds of acres between you and the next human being. What's a fantasy to you, is a reality to someone living in a suburb. It's clear from the OP that he's asking about SBR AR's, not rattlesnake getter-ridder-ofers.

 

[35 Whelen]

Double post.

 

[35 Whelen]

I actually don't see what you mean. Considering a flashlight can allow you to ID your target when no other light sources are available, and it can easily be turned off if the user feels it puts him at a tactical disadvantage, what possible downside can there be from having a flashlight mounted to your home defense weapon? Are you honestly saying that it's better to have no light at all and to be completely unable to ID your target rather than have a flashlight that might possibly fail? That argument makes no sense at all.

Not everybody lives in the same situation that you do. Your posts haven't been limited to recommendations to people in your situation, you've been recommending things for everyone: "I personally don't shoot at things in the dark, nor should anyone." It seems you're using your specific situation as a reason to recommend that everyone do things the way you do. But not everyone lives in the same situation you do.

For example, I live in a wood-framed house that has neighbors nearby in two directions. I'm worried about over-penetration, which is why I prefer a rifle in .223 over buckshot or pistol rounds, both of which both tend to over-penetrate far more. And my house is a rental, so I can't set up the light switches the way you do. Also, my front door is rather flimsy and is mostly thin glass, so it would be fairly easy for a drunk person to break in if they thought they were at the right house and were angry that their key didn't work for some reason (a situation that occurs periodically; my wife dealt first-hand with the aftermath of a situation just like it).

I never said that at all. That's twice now in two posts that you've pulled out a strawman argument. My point is that the spread of buckshot at home defense ranges is negligible enough to make aiming just as important with a shotgun as a rifle. That's something you notice if you pattern common defensive shotgun loadings at those distances.

Actually, I didn't mention that. That's not my quote, that's M1key's quote.

What I mean is anything can go wrong and the "what if"-s can be endless. You don't have to justify hanging a flashlight on your rifle, it's your rifle. I prefer something a bit more simple in just turning on the lights in the house. A flashlight offers a relatively small area of light especially whwn compared to room lighting. Additionally, there are no tactics or tactical advantages or disadvantages for me in my house. That sounds like something from a video game.

You're absolutely correct that few live in the same situation as I. What I'm offering is an opinion, you know, an option to the same ol' tired "just get an AR" one size fits all solution to every problem.

If anyone here is comfortable shooting at noises in the dark as has been insinuated, then I suppose that's their prerogatives.

You're worried about over penetration from buckshot (1200 fps or less) and handgun bullets (even slower) yet you choose to unleash 2700+ fps missles in a wood frame house? Interesting. And thinking HP's penetrate less simply because they're HP's is illogical. HP's require their cavity be filled with something such as fluid or flesh to rupture their jacket via hydraulic pressure and initiate expansion, that's why match HP's with their tiny cavities typically perform poorly on game.

You stated that a shotgun would increase the likelihood of hits over a rifle "not by much". Considering a rifle sends one bullet with each pull of the trigger and a shotgun a minimum of 9 with 00 buck and 24 with #4 buck, it seems to me the likelihood of a hit is increased profoundly even at close ranges, plus a greater margin for error exists with multiple projectiles. And this leads us back to the over-penetration subject. A lead ball, be it .24 caliber (#4) or .33 caliber (00) due to low sectional density, has poor penetration characteristics and tend to flatten out on hard objects. The key is to do your homework. Cheap buckshot loads have soft pellets and lack buffer, a combination that increases spread and decreases penetration due to deformed pellets. Premium loads OTOH use harder pellets and granulated buffer to tighten patterns and increase penetration.

Actually, I didn't mention that. That's not my quote, that's M1key's quote.

You got me on that one!

That's a bold statement to make, considering I doubt you know how often Theohazard shoots or what kind of shooting he does.

Not bold at all. The evidence is in his statement. How much he shoots is irrelevant, what he says is what counts.

Then why are you fighting so hard to strike down everyone else's point or experience? You're calling any discussion a "fantasy", and then turn around and say you have hundreds of acres between you and the next human being. What's a fantasy to you, is a reality to someone living in a suburb. It's clear from the OP that he's asking about SBR AR's, not rattlesnake getter-ridder-ofers.

I'm not trying to strike down anyone any more than you are. I'm simply offering my experiences and opinions, same as you and everyone else. Seems anytime someone even hints at using something other than an AR for HD/SD the undergarments immediately begin to tighten. The fantasy comment was in regards to the need to.actually defend ones sell in their house. Highly unlikely.

35W

 

[Theohazard]

You stated that a shotgun would increase the likelihood of hits over a rifle "not by much". Considering a rifle sends one bullet with each pull of the trigger and a shotgun a minimum of 9 with 00 buck and 24 with #4 buck, it seems to me the likelihood of a hit is increased profoundly even at close ranges, plus a greater margin for error exists with multiple projectiles.

You appear to be missing the point. My point is that the spread of buckshot at HD ranges is tight enough that it makes aiming with a shotgun just as important as with a rifle. A shotgun doesn't increase your likelihood of a hit by any significant amount considering how tight the shot spread is at close range. If you try patterning buckshot at these ranges, you'll see how tight the spread is.

Additionally, there are no tactics or tactical advantages or disadvantages for me in my house. That sounds like something from a video game.

There are no tactics? So there are no methods you would use if there were ever an intruder in your house? And there are no ways that you could ever gain any kind of advantage or disadvantage over an intruder? That doesn't make any sense at all. Either you're speaking nonsense or you don't understand what the word "tactics" means.

Either way, you continue to miss my point. My point is that there is no disadvantage to having a flashlight on your weapon. Things fail, which is why it doesn't hurt to be prepared with a backup light source in case your power goes out or you simply have one lightbulb burn out in a room you want to illuminate.

You've decided that you don't need a flashlight, and that's fine; you may never need one. But you originally claimed that nobody needs a flashlight, which is an absurd statement.

You're worried about over penetration from buckshot (1200 fps or less) and handgun bullets (even slower) yet you choose to unleash 2700+ fps missles in a wood frame house? Interesting.
[...]
A lead ball, be it .24 caliber (#4) or .33 caliber (00) due to low sectional density, has poor penetration characteristics and tend to flatten out on hard objects. The key is to do your homework.

OK, now you're really demonstrating that you have no idea what you're talking about. Do you really still believe the myth that a .223 will over-penetrate compared to buckshot or a handgun? And you're trying to claim that I don't shoot much and you're saying that I need to do my homework?

Buckshot and defensive handgun rounds penetrate like crazy through building materiels, while defensive .223 rounds tend to fragment and penetrate a lot less. This is common knowledge by now, and the fact that you don't know this just shows that you really don't know much about this whole subject.

Here's the results of just one test, and there are many, many more you can find that have similar outcomes:

http://how-i-did-it.org/drywall/results.html

"If buckshot is supposed to limit penetration through interior walls, it does so only at a theoretical level."

And here's an article about the FBI's tests regarding .223 penetration:

http://www.olyarms.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=14

"The FBI study clearly demonstrates the following: (1) that .223 rounds on average, penetrate less than the hollow point pistol rounds evaluated, (2) concern for over penetration of the .223 round, at close range, has been greatly exaggerated, (3) with the exception of soft ballistic garment penetration, the .223 round appears to be relatively safer for employment in CQB events than the hollow point bullets tested."

 

[35 Whelen]

So you haven't actually done any testing or have any first-hand knowledge, only what you've read on websites, correct?

And here's an article about the FBI's tests regarding .223 penetration:

http://www.olyarms.com/index.php?opt...ask=view&id=14

Wait....is this the same governmental entity that just exonerated a political official who lied under oath? If so, why would I trust anything they said or did?

Really this has become a tit-for-tat discussion full of generalities such as "how tight the shot spread is at close range" (What gauge shotgun? Choke? Barrel length? Shot size? How far is "Close range").

The good news is I'm free most of the weekend and am looking forward to testing some buckshot!

35W

 

[Theohazard]

you haven't actually done any testing or have any first-hand knowledge, only what you've read on websites, correct?

Actually, I have tested it myself, just not anywhere near as scientifically as those tests. Most rational people prefer citations of actual tests as opposed to unscientific verbal testimonials by random people in forums, which is why I provided those links.

But are you actually claiming that those tests and the hundreds others like it are wrong? Are you seriously trying to claim that the FBI and a huge number of police departments across the nation have switched to .223 rifles for the wrong reasons? There is an overwhelming preponderance of evidence that .223 JHPs limit penetration compared to defensive shotgun or handgun loads. If you want to try to claim otherwise, you're making an extraordinary claim. And as Carl Sagan said, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

35 Whelen, your signature line is very interesting to me. Yes, you're correct that many people have such a strong affection for the .223 round that they sometimes ignore its shortcomings. But at the same time, it appears that you have absolutely no idea how the .223's ballistics work.

 

[azrocks]

You're worried about over penetration from buckshot (1200 fps or less) and handgun bullets (even slower) yet you choose to unleash 2700+ fps missles in a wood frame house? Interesting. And thinking HP's penetrate less simply because they're HP's is illogical. HP's require their cavity be filled with something such as fluid or flesh to rupture their jacket via hydraulic pressure and initiate expansion, that's why match HP's with their tiny cavities typically perform poorly on game.

5.56 rounds pushed at high velocity do two things you're not accounting for that have a significant impact on their ability to penetrate building materials and maintain velocity: fragment, and yaw. Neither of these is dependent on 'mushrooming'. With a well-chosen round (like TAP ammo specifically designed for urban / police settings) pushed at an appropriate speed, most bullets will either keyhole in drywall, fragment, or a combination of both. That's not to say they won't penetrate multiple layers of drywall (they absolutely can & will go through room after room after room), but no more so than you'd expect from buckshot.

As for pistol rounds, you again seem to be not accounting for an important factor: mass. Even a 125g 9mm is more than double the weight of either the average 223 bullet or a single buckshot pellet (both of which weight nearly the same). A 230g 45 is ~ 4 times the weight. Mass = momentum, and momentum plays a really big part in a rounds ability to penetrate structures (as well as maintaining enough velocity to actually cause bodily harm).

Bottom line: Anything that's an effective man-stopper is potentially an effective wall-stopper too. A shotgun loaded with 00 buck is no less dangerous to people in adjacent rooms/buildings than a 5.56 rifle. Numerous tests have shown this, including the FBIs (really silly, btw, to discount their results based on the Clinton fiasco.)

You stated that a shotgun would increase the likelihood of hits over a rifle "not by much". Considering a rifle sends one bullet with each pull of the trigger and a shotgun a minimum of 9 with 00 buck and 24 with #4 buck, it seems to me the likelihood of a hit is increased profoundly even at close ranges, plus a greater margin for error exists with multiple projectiles.

Out of an open-choke short-barreled (NFA) shotgun at average in-the-home distances you might get enough shot spread to make that claim. From a legal-minimum 18" barrel on anything else, open choke or not, you're not going to see enough spread to give you any real advantage in hit probability. Testing I've seen shows spreads ranging from 1-3". If you consider that a 'profound' advantage we definitely have two different opinions on what the term means.

And this leads us back to the over-penetration subject. A lead ball, be it .24 caliber (#4) or .33 caliber (00) due to low sectional density, has poor penetration characteristics and tend to flatten out on hard objects. The key is to do your homework. Cheap buckshot loads have soft pellets and lack buffer, a combination that increases spread and decreases penetration due to deformed pellets. Premium loads OTOH use harder pellets and granulated buffer to tighten patterns and increase penetration.

Totally agreed. But again, you have even more choices in 5.56 that provide the same effect (reduced overpenetration) through different mechanisms.

 

[M1key]

self edit