I use my rifles more than just when someone breaks in. That's the case for a lot of people with $2k+ rifles. It's not about just dumping money into "the best" for the sake of having it in an emergency. Having something that can deal with weekly use and 1-2k rounds a year is important. The cost of the gun just doesn't factor into my decision when I'm buying something that is going to do more than be a toy.
So I could certainly get a cheap 357 lever gun for HD, set it up how I want, and devote a lot of money and time into learning the rifle and making sure it runs... But why, when I have the time and familiarity with options that give nothing up to that 357?
And don't get too comfortable throwing 357 lead all over the place... a 125gr load moving 2000 fps out of a carbine isn't that dissimilar to a 7.62x39 load at 60-75 yards. Knowing where you're shooting is critical no matter what you use.
Who says no one is using their HD rifles for more than just HD?
Not sure I understand your post? You say you don't understand spending the $ for a better HD weapon and yet own better weapons for HD already (the 16" AR) yet don't use it because the likelyhood is remote? Why did you spend hundreds of dollars on rifle(s) you don't even use for HD or hunting, just to have it? (Perfectly fine w/ me, you are the one saying the cost isn't worth it for a dedicated HD rifle, not me).
Sure, the chance is remote, and yet if it does happen, wouldn't you want to fight for your life with the best option available? An AR with an RDS and light, is light years ahead of an iron-sighted lever action when it comes to a chaotic, up-close fight in the dark.
Oh, why a rifle for in the home? Better terminal performance with lower recoil and less penetration through walls, at least in the case of 5.56/.223.
What if you already bought the rifle because you like to shoot it, and its eminent suitability for HD (precision, reserve capacity, limited penetration) is just a plus? I didn't buy my AR strictly for HD, but it certainly serves well for the defensive standby role.
No worse than firing a short-ish 12-gauge in the house, or a 4" 9mm/.40/.45, and less loud/blasty than firing a .357 revolver. Assuming you don't use a muzzle brake on the .223, of course; a brake will make a .223 almost as loud as a .357 snubbie.
Personally I'd want more ammo on tap than a lever gun or shotgun offers. Trained personnel (cops) have a hit rate of 10-15%. If you've only got 6-8 to rounds at the ready there's a good chance you never land one anywhere on the target, much less a vital zone.
If you have never played paintball or airsoft you should, that'll give you an appreciation of how hard it is to hit someone that doesn't want to be shot, even at close distance. In fact, whatever gun you use for HD/CCW, it might not be a bad idea to buy the airsoft replica and try to recruit a volunteer to play bad guy around the house and you try to shoot them at close distance. You'll miss a lot more than you hit.
Pig shooting, close range deer, competition, backpacking companion, a gun that's easy to store, etc. When TSX's open up at 1800 fps, and 11" barrels (my recommendation specifically because I've looked at the velocity numbers for SBR's) are able to easily send a 70gr at over 2400 at the muzzle (actual chrono data), I would have zero reservation employing that setup in the same roles that I'd use a 16"... just keep the ranges closer. I've seen deer shot with less than ideal .223 loads from 16" barrels, a premium bullet from an 11.5" that is well within it's operating window will be fine.35 Whelen said:Understood. But the OP is asking about acquiring a 10" AR strictly for HD. What on earth other use is there for a 10" AR???
Fair enough, but to my first point, frequent training with a rifle suited specifically to HD is a strong use case on its own. My other point was that it doesn't have to be strictly for HD.If you already have an AR and you want to use it for HD, then go ahead, but that's not the context of the OP. Again, he's inquiring about a rifle strictly for HD.
Understood. But the OP is asking about acquiring a 10" AR strictly for HD. What on earth other use is there for a 10" AR???
I personally don't shoot at things in the dark, nor should anyone.
This is not necessarily true, there are other factors at play, also. For example, a .223 JHP will penetrate a lot less than a .45 ACP or even a .357 Magnum JHP, especially through walls.35 Whelen said:The larger the frontal area of a bullet, the less the penetration.
I personally don't shoot at things in the dark, nor should anyone.
That sound like a great setup as long as your power is working. But you specifically said, "I personally don't shoot at things in the dark, nor should anyone." And that's a overly-broad statement considering I highly doubt most people have their light switches set up the way you do. And for those people, a flashlight makes the most sense.35 Whelen said:When we built our house I wired it for electricity. Its pretty sweet as I made good use of 3 and 4 way switches. Therefore there are light switches on opposing sides of every doorway to every room in our house and switches at each end of the hall, as well as at the top and bottom of the stairs. And, as I'm sure most of us do, when I hear a strange noise in or about the house I first turn the lamp next to the bed on. Pretty simple.
It's also a good way to identify your target if you don't have another light source. Personally, I'd like to know if the person breaking into my house is a burglar or my just my teenage neighbor who got drunk and came home to the wrong house. Here's the thing: If you're worried that a flashlight will put you at a tactical disadvantage, you can always leave it off.35 Whelen said:Seems to me a flashlight is the perfect way to say "Aim here." to a bad guy.
Nobody has advocated for that. But you're the one who came the closest when you advocated against having a flashlight.35 Whelen said:to those of you who are OK with shooting at noises in the dark
Not by much. Have you ever patterned buckshot at normal home-defense ranges?35 Whelen said:you might reconsider a shotgun as they increase your chances of hits.
A weapon-mounted light is not akin to 'shooting in the dark'. Have you ever used a quality lamp? Also, have you ever been on the other end of one?When we built our house I wired it for electricity. Its pretty sweet as I made good use of 3 and 4 way switches. Therefore there are light switches on opposing sides of every doorway to every room in our house and switches at each end of the hall, as well as at the top and bottom of the stairs. And, as I'm sure most of us do, when I hear a strange noise in or about the house I first turn the lamp next to the bed on. Pretty simple.
Seems to me a flashlight is the perfect way to say "Aim here." to a bad guy. But anyway, enough of the endless HD fantasies. But I will add to those of you who are OK with shooting at noises in the dark(I'm not, because I have a family and couldn't live with myself if I hurt one of them), you might reconsider a shotgun as they increase your chances of hits.
35W
Haha, nice! I'm a slow typer, so you must have started your response way after I did.azrocks said:EDIT: I see Theo pretty much said the exact same thing I did at the exact same time! Well-met, Theo
That sound like a great setup as long as your power is working. But you specifically said, "I personally don't shoot at things in the dark, nor should anyone." And that's a overly-broad statement considering I highly doubt most people have their light switches set up the way you do. And for those people, a flashlight makes the most sense.
It's also a good way to identify your target if you don't have another light source. Personally, I'd like to know if the person breaking into my house is a burglar or my just my teenage neighbor who got drunk and came home to the wrong house. Here's the thing: If you're worried that a flashlight will put you at a tactical disadvantage, you can always leave it off.
Nobody has advocated for that. But you're the one who came the closest when you advocated against having a flashlight.
Not by much. Have you ever patterned buckshot at normal home-defense ranges?
HD would include a WIDE variety of contingencies in my neighborhood. Not just my home, but older retired neighbors who might not be able to effectively defend themselves.
Also various potentially nasty, feral, or rabid skunks, coyotes, foxes, lions, and javelinas that inhabit the night. Good luck without that weapon light.
And ask the ranchers that live along the southern border. Most ride around with ARs in their vehicle day or night.
Good luck with YOUR fantasy, 35.
M
I actually don't see what you mean. Considering a flashlight can allow you to ID your target when no other light sources are available, and it can easily be turned off if the user feels it puts him at a tactical disadvantage, what possible downside can there be from having a flashlight mounted to your home defense weapon? Are you honestly saying that it's better to have no light at all and to be completely unable to ID your target rather than have a flashlight that might possibly fail? That argument makes no sense at all.35 Whelen said:I mean "what if" your flashlight malfunctions, or the batteries are dead? See what I mean??
Not everybody lives in the same situation that you do. Your posts haven't been limited to recommendations to people in your situation, you've been recommending things for everyone: "I personally don't shoot at things in the dark, nor should anyone." It seems you're using your specific situation as a reason to recommend that everyone do things the way you do. But not everyone lives in the same situation you do.35 Whelen said:My nearest neighbor is 3/4 mile away. It's over 300 yds. from my house to my gate at the road. Nobody "accidentally" enters my house at any time of the day or night. If you're worried about something as simple as a drunk neighbor entering your house inadvertently, lock your doors. Problem solved.
I never said that at all. That's twice now in two posts that you've pulled out a strawman argument. My point is that the spread of buckshot at home defense ranges is negligible enough to make aiming just as important with a shotgun as a rifle. That's something you notice if you pattern common defensive shotgun loadings at those distances.35 Whelen said:Actually I have. I load my own shotshells, including buckshot and have patterned them as well as everything from #4 turkey loads down to #8 birdshot. What would you like to know? If you think a shotgun holds no advantage over a rifle at close range, you need to spend some time shooting.Theohazard said:Not by much. Have you ever patterned buckshot at normal home-defense ranges?
Actually, I didn't mention that. That's not my quote, that's M1key's quote.35 Whelen said:Funny you should mention that...Theohazard said:And ask the ranchers that live along the southern border. Most ride around with ARs in their vehicle day or night.
Good luck with YOUR fantasy, 35.
M
If the flashlight malfunctions, or if the light is an "aim here" sign, the onus to ID whose life I might take is still on me no matter what. I will do what I can to mitigate my chances of being shot (which means knowing how to use a light), and I also accept that risk to avoid shooting someone who shouldn't be shot. And what if your .30-30 is unloaded? Maintenance extends to all parts of the gun, including lights.35 Whelen said:We can play the silly "but what if..." games until the thread is locked. I mean "what if" your flashlight malfunctions, or the batteries are dead? See what I mean??
Good for you. That situation likely applies to no one else here.35 Whelen said:My nearest neighbor is 3/4 mile away. It's over 300 yds. from my house to my gate at the road. Nobody "accidentally" enters my house at any time of the day or night.
Exactly. Might as well get rid of the gun, too. After all, we have locks and it's just a simple drunk neighbor.35 Whelen said:If you're worried about something as simple as a drunk neighbor entering your house inadvertently, lock your doors. Problem solved.
That's a bold statement to make, considering I doubt you know how often Theohazard shoots or what kind of shooting he does.35 Whelen said:If you think a shotgun holds no advantage over a rifle at close range, you need to spend some time shooting.
Then why are you fighting so hard to strike down everyone else's point or experience? You're calling any discussion a "fantasy", and then turn around and say you have hundreds of acres between you and the next human being. What's a fantasy to you, is a reality to someone living in a suburb. It's clear from the OP that he's asking about SBR AR's, not rattlesnake getter-ridder-ofers.35 Whelen said:A couple of others hit the nail squarely on the head when they stated that the proper HD firearm depends on where you live and other situations.
I actually don't see what you mean. Considering a flashlight can allow you to ID your target when no other light sources are available, and it can easily be turned off if the user feels it puts him at a tactical disadvantage, what possible downside can there be from having a flashlight mounted to your home defense weapon? Are you honestly saying that it's better to have no light at all and to be completely unable to ID your target rather than have a flashlight that might possibly fail? That argument makes no sense at all.
Not everybody lives in the same situation that you do. Your posts haven't been limited to recommendations to people in your situation, you've been recommending things for everyone: "I personally don't shoot at things in the dark, nor should anyone." It seems you're using your specific situation as a reason to recommend that everyone do things the way you do. But not everyone lives in the same situation you do.
For example, I live in a wood-framed house that has neighbors nearby in two directions. I'm worried about over-penetration, which is why I prefer a rifle in .223 over buckshot or pistol rounds, both of which both tend to over-penetrate far more. And my house is a rental, so I can't set up the light switches the way you do. Also, my front door is rather flimsy and is mostly thin glass, so it would be fairly easy for a drunk person to break in if they thought they were at the right house and were angry that their key didn't work for some reason (a situation that occurs periodically; my wife dealt first-hand with the aftermath of a situation just like it).
I never said that at all. That's twice now in two posts that you've pulled out a strawman argument. My point is that the spread of buckshot at home defense ranges is negligible enough to make aiming just as important with a shotgun as a rifle. That's something you notice if you pattern common defensive shotgun loadings at those distances.
Actually, I didn't mention that. That's not my quote, that's M1key's quote.
Actually, I didn't mention that. That's not my quote, that's M1key's quote.
That's a bold statement to make, considering I doubt you know how often Theohazard shoots or what kind of shooting he does.
Then why are you fighting so hard to strike down everyone else's point or experience? You're calling any discussion a "fantasy", and then turn around and say you have hundreds of acres between you and the next human being. What's a fantasy to you, is a reality to someone living in a suburb. It's clear from the OP that he's asking about SBR AR's, not rattlesnake getter-ridder-ofers.
You appear to be missing the point. My point is that the spread of buckshot at HD ranges is tight enough that it makes aiming with a shotgun just as important as with a rifle. A shotgun doesn't increase your likelihood of a hit by any significant amount considering how tight the shot spread is at close range. If you try patterning buckshot at these ranges, you'll see how tight the spread is.35 Whelen said:You stated that a shotgun would increase the likelihood of hits over a rifle "not by much". Considering a rifle sends one bullet with each pull of the trigger and a shotgun a minimum of 9 with 00 buck and 24 with #4 buck, it seems to me the likelihood of a hit is increased profoundly even at close ranges, plus a greater margin for error exists with multiple projectiles.
There are no tactics? So there are no methods you would use if there were ever an intruder in your house? And there are no ways that you could ever gain any kind of advantage or disadvantage over an intruder? That doesn't make any sense at all. Either you're speaking nonsense or you don't understand what the word "tactics" means.35 Whelen said:Additionally, there are no tactics or tactical advantages or disadvantages for me in my house. That sounds like something from a video game.
OK, now you're really demonstrating that you have no idea what you're talking about. Do you really still believe the myth that a .223 will over-penetrate compared to buckshot or a handgun? And you're trying to claim that I don't shoot much and you're saying that I need to do my homework?35 Whelen said:You're worried about over penetration from buckshot (1200 fps or less) and handgun bullets (even slower) yet you choose to unleash 2700+ fps missles in a wood frame house? Interesting.
[...]
A lead ball, be it .24 caliber (#4) or .33 caliber (00) due to low sectional density, has poor penetration characteristics and tend to flatten out on hard objects. The key is to do your homework.
"If buckshot is supposed to limit penetration through interior walls, it does so only at a theoretical level."
"The FBI study clearly demonstrates the following: (1) that .223 rounds on average, penetrate less than the hollow point pistol rounds evaluated, (2) concern for over penetration of the .223 round, at close range, has been greatly exaggerated, (3) with the exception of soft ballistic garment penetration, the .223 round appears to be relatively safer for employment in CQB events than the hollow point bullets tested."
And here's an article about the FBI's tests regarding .223 penetration:
http://www.olyarms.com/index.php?opt...ask=view&id=14
Actually, I have tested it myself, just not anywhere near as scientifically as those tests. Most rational people prefer citations of actual tests as opposed to unscientific verbal testimonials by random people in forums, which is why I provided those links.35 Whelen said:you haven't actually done any testing or have any first-hand knowledge, only what you've read on websites, correct?
You're worried about over penetration from buckshot (1200 fps or less) and handgun bullets (even slower) yet you choose to unleash 2700+ fps missles in a wood frame house? Interesting. And thinking HP's penetrate less simply because they're HP's is illogical. HP's require their cavity be filled with something such as fluid or flesh to rupture their jacket via hydraulic pressure and initiate expansion, that's why match HP's with their tiny cavities typically perform poorly on game.
You stated that a shotgun would increase the likelihood of hits over a rifle "not by much". Considering a rifle sends one bullet with each pull of the trigger and a shotgun a minimum of 9 with 00 buck and 24 with #4 buck, it seems to me the likelihood of a hit is increased profoundly even at close ranges, plus a greater margin for error exists with multiple projectiles.
And this leads us back to the over-penetration subject. A lead ball, be it .24 caliber (#4) or .33 caliber (00) due to low sectional density, has poor penetration characteristics and tend to flatten out on hard objects. The key is to do your homework. Cheap buckshot loads have soft pellets and lack buffer, a combination that increases spread and decreases penetration due to deformed pellets. Premium loads OTOH use harder pellets and granulated buffer to tighten patterns and increase penetration.