Semi-auto rifle for home defense

[d2wing]

I wouldn't go 9 MM unless I wanted to use a pistol. An AK especially with FMJ rounds will over penetrate as well as have less stopping power than a soft point .223.
My personal preference is a .357 revolver but an AR and a 12 gauge are never too far away.

 

[Tirod]

Auditory exclusion does not "protect" your hearing. It's a psychological affect of focusing on visual stimulus. You are watching to see what the intruder is doing more than listening to the report. The brain simply isn't processing the noise as the visual is given far more priority.

Anyone shooting inside a building needs hearing protection - and a suppressor on YOUR gun doesn't nothing to quiet down THEIRS pointing most of the muzzle blast at YOU. The shooting community would do well to pay attention to what is worn by the guys who will be coming to rescue you and subdue the perp. By and large they all wear muffs with communications to talk to each other, and most of the high end muffs have sound amplification with high decibel cutoff to protect their hearing.

So, you don't get your ears blasted, and you can hear them walking around down the hall - way better than they can with their ears ringing from their own gunfire.

And what will those teams be shooting? Not low penetration ammo, and neither will the perp. For that matter, have you ever seen any such thing labeled that way and sitting on the store shelf? No - it doesn't exist. Sheetrock construction isn't substantial, and if you shoot one round into it, the next at that same location will go right thru.

Windows, veneer hollow core doors with hex grid card board stiffener open thru it, or your Aunts old dresser are no match for military or hunting loads. The myth of low penetration ammo rates right up there with racking the shotgun or only carrying three rounds in your Glock. You may very well want to shoot thru a door, our VP wasn't so far off. If you know who is one the other side because you slammed it in their face it would be a good time to open fire - knowing what the backstop is in that firing lane. And don't be fooled into thinking he won't return fire - he didn't buy special low penetration ammo, he bought or got whatever he thought would knock you down hard.

Most discussions on HD are bringing a lot of myth and very little thinking into it. If you want some eyeopening details just ask any 20 something soldier who's been thru MOUT training, ie how to assault defenders in built up areas. The average American home is going to be mostly Swiss cheese after a firefight - and could literally catch fire in the process. Gas lines, electrical wiring shorted out, appliances spewing refrigerant which can burn, propane canisters on the deck dumping their contents.

Rather than low penetration ammo, which will only reduce your tactical reach, it might be better to have low penetration walls to hide behind: http://www.terrancorp.com/content/shock-absorbing-concrete-sacon-bullet-trap

Although getting that done might be a stretch.

 

[eldon519]

Despite the length of response, you still don't provide a real reason not to select ammunition with an eye towards its (over)penetrating qualities. As you point out, even the fragmenting rounds like a Hornady TAP2 75gr are going to go through a wall or door or two. That is all I would ever ask it to do. I don't need barrier blind or .308 or something so that I can shoot through my entire house. I'm not anticipating an X-ray-vision railgun fight a la Eraser.

Also the proposed intruder's lack of concern for overpenetration does not somehow nullify my own concern. Clearly the intruder does not have any concern at all for the occupants, neighbors, etc. I do. The intruder's irresponsibility does not negate my responsibility.

I've also never really noticed anyone call it "low penetration ammo" before either. Rather than using absolutes, it's usually relative comparisons like "less" penetration when comparing rounds or calibers. I don't see anyone under the illusion that 5.56 will not go through a wall. It just goes through less walls than some other rounds.

 

[henschman]

OP, I think you would be best served by a high quality AR-15 carbine with a light profile barrel from a manufacturer that meets or exceeds the mil specs, like BCM, Colt, DD, PSA Premium, or Spikes, an Aimpoint red dot sight, a good light with a momentary switch tailcap, and a 2-point tactical sling like a VCAS. For ammo, you would be best served by something with a light weight, non-bonded bullet that fragments. I just use M193 in mine.

 

[entropy]

Justin, the price difference between steel-cased 7.62x39 and steel-cased is negligible. I frequently find either for $.22/rd. And if you want quality brass-cased ammo or even match grade ammo, tough to beat .223/5.56 prices for comparable products. For reloading, the cheapest jacketed projectiles I'm aware of are bulk 55gr FMJs offered new from a variety of manufacturers.

Also I wouldn't determine my home defense needs with a collector's mentality, I'd pick the tool that's best for the job. I think it's an uphill battle to try to argue the AK47 is the best choice for a guy already trained with the AR family.

Hmm. I have lots of familiarity with the AR, having been an Armorer. I built an AR after I got out, sold it when Klinton jacked the price on them way up; couldn't resist quintupling my investment in it. My current rifle rifle is an AK variant. I built that also. It's not as accurate as an AR, true, but it does what I want of it, and does it reliably, whether dirty or clean. I have nothing against AR's; My son has one. We sighted it in recently, he's deer hunting with it. I hate having to clean them to keep them running. And for all you armchair commandos who put 0-500 round through your AR's each year, I've put that many and many more through M16's in one day. And yes, they need cleaning to keep them running in those conditions; AK's don't.

To the OP: Get an AR; you know the manual of arms, you won't be subjecting it to field conditions, you'll probably clean it when you do shoot it, and not be subjecting it to marathon range sessions or extended operations.

 

[Girodin]

I hate having to clean them to keep them running. And for all you armchair commandos who put 0-500 round through your AR's each year, I've put that many and many more through M16's in one day. And yes, they need cleaning to keep them running in those conditions; AK's don't.

What kind of AR do you have?

The idea of AR's needing to be "clean" to run reliably is largely a myth if you aren't talking about some POS gun. See "Filthy 14" for an example of a properly built AR. You need to lubricate them. Lube is much more important than clean.

https://www.slip2000.com/blog/s-w-a-t-magazine-filthy-14/

I typically shoot my ARs suppressed and still don't see a need to be cleaning them all the time to keep them running. One of my Noveskes I put a few cases of dirty wolf ammo through without issue without ever cleaning it. Keep them lubed and they run.

Honestly you probably will need to replace parts before you need to clean it to keep a properly built gun running. I wouldn't let a gun I was staking my life on go 10K rounds without cleaning it, but you could. Having to keep a decent AR clean to keep it running is a myth.

As noted for a HD gun it is a total non issue anyways. There is no good reason not to reasonably maintain and service a weapon on is relying on for defensive use.

To the OP my suggestion would be to get a BCM. There are other guns that are well made and would be perfectly serviceable, Colt for example. I'd get the BCM for a few reasons. They are quality guns from a company dedicated to providing quality guns and who stands behind their products. BCM offers configurations I prefer to those offered by Colt. Given the market there is no reason not to go with a gun like a Colt or BCM.

For a first AR I'd get a 16" gun. The difference in length versus a pinned 14.5 is negligible and not having the pinned device gives you greater flexibility down the road. I'd get a mid-length gas system. I have come to like lighter guns. For that reasons I'd get a light weight barrel with a KMR rail. A lot of the uppers available now have the KMR alpha and I don't see that as being a deal breaker. Its a slightly heavier and less expensive rail. Something like this upper:

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-...ight-Upp-p/bcm-urg-mid-16-bfh-elw-kmr-a15.htm

Put it on an in spec lower, properly assembled with a quality parts kit and you are in business. As noted above, add an aimpoint, a light and a sling and you are pretty well set.

 

[SwampWolf]

I'll be the lone wolf here and recommend the handy Ruger Mini-14 carbine, chambered in 5.56. Reliable, well-built, rugged and plenty accurate as "semi-auto rifle for home defense".

 

[Sheepdog1968]

Hard to argue with a semi auto rifle (or a shotgun) for home defense. Get more training at so splint from Gunsite or Thunder Ranch to maximize your full potential.

 

[Tirod]

The US military uses steel penetrators to get thru cover to hit the opposing soldier behind it. It was developed because third world use of masonry materials in construction is common, along with prepared military positions using sandbags, bunkers, revetments, concrete, and the ubiquitous Hesco bastions in the Mid East.

US stick built or frame construction is a joke in comparison. Many videos exist on the inability of sheetrock walls to stop bullets. Attempting to accommodate them by the use of low penetration ammo is throwing away the power of the bullet to penetrate - and even the FBI knows not to do that. There specification consistently demands penetration. The myth of NOT doing that is largely foisted on the Home Defense community to protect interior occupants from the liability of a stray round striking them.

Since NOTHING in the house is build with the idea of slowing down bullets, then the reality to assume is that ANY round will do so - and you need to take particular care in knowing which direction you are going to shoot. It's part of the 4 Rules, know where your backstop is.

Map our your lanes of interior fire and see what will result. Forward, toward the front door? Nope, doors don't stop bullets, not even hollow metal 14 ga ones. Once beaten in - all that holds them closed on the average home is a small deadbolt anchored into the cased opening - you would then be firing at ? Your neighbors house across the street - and it's windows. There is NO low penetration ammo that slows down significantly to prevent you injuring your neighbor looking out the window to find out what all the noise is.

Inside, same issues. The main one being shooting your own children in their bedrooms - but it also goes to why would you point the weapon in that specific direction and risk that your second shot doesn't go thru the sheet rock where the first did - into the body of your offspring? Do you not know to shoot that direction? Apparently most never give it a thought, because most are just posting about a fantasy topic and spouting off the top of their head in locker room measuring discussions. Actual experience or training be damned if it means not conceding the point.

Many think you should run to a "safe room" where you can shelter - and do what? Mostly be a target for those shooting the lock off the door - consider exactly where and what you would be hiding behind. Does having your family behind you endanger them? Because they will be a backstop for bullets missing you.

Better to leave the building and move to another location, to return fire as they exit the house the way you came.

Plenty of speculation about how low penetration ammo will keep from harming you and yours, but it does nothing to put down the intruders, and they would likely choose FMJ to use against you. Luck of the draw on that - but if you even measure round for round, them shooting whatever and you shooting the legendary and as yet unnamed LP stuff, you still lose, as 50% of the bullets won't be.

The SWAT team coming to bail you out won't be, either. That puts you at 33% - they may likely be using M855 with steel penetrator. Why? Same as the military, to shoot thru walls and doors to hit the intruders.

You don't give them an even break. If someone is worried about where their kids sleep and being in the line of fire, you just discovered a FLAW in your HD plans and it needs to be addressed by controlling their proximity to a lane of fire - not disarming yourself with junk ammo.

Low penetration ammo is an internet myth used by merchandise focused users to cover up basic tactical ignorance. It's a fun game to argue on the forums, but the reality is it almost never happens in real life. Most intrusions are based on stealing your drug lords stash and selling them, or a thug his female punching bag. Someone totally ignored their likelihood of exacting revenge to uphold street credibility. It's a hard life when you are stupid.

Don't add Darwin Award to the list of things you receive after a home intrusion - prepare for it with tactics and sound planning, not merchandise hype or internet myth. And part of the myth is needing a rifle to defend with - when a pistol is much more likely to be at hand when somebody starts kicking down your door.

I give them about one kick and they should expect return fire thru it. And it won't be low penetrating myth ammo.

 

[eldon519]

Who or what are you even arguing against? You're really dedicated to the ad nauseam approach I see. And what kind of firefights do you think you are getting into where your house is going to be Swiss cheese and your car lit afire by these M249-wielding bandits?

 

[Zerodefect]

Weirder things have happened. We have had lynch mobs before.

An AR15 or PS90 would be my choice not a shotgun. My shotgun throws a ton of liability about, and is heavy and slow.

 

[allivak]

i'm sorry but the stupidest part about some of these posts is that people actually believe they will care about liability if/when the time comes to FIRE A GUN TO DEFEND YOU OR LOVED ONES.

ever heard of fight or flight? ever wonder why Cops keep shooting entire clips into unarmed people despite EXTENSIVE training for those EXACT scenarios?

its because none of that **** matters when your brain kicks into fight or flight mode....when you truly believe you're life is in danger, everything is off the table.

be honest, how man of you REALLY think you're going to consider where your neighbors are located if you got awoken in the middle of the night to an armed intruder??

its a joke.

the last thing in the world you would be thinking about is liability....if you have time to consider the potential trajectory of your bullets and whats behind them, then you probably didn't need to fire your gun in the first place.

i know all the people with LE/military training are going to take exception to what I have said...but the truth is that they know training will often fly out the window in the worst of moments...when you need it the most.

 

[Ironicaintit]

Hey allivak,
This is the point. To deliberate scenarios, before the time comes.
If you dont have at least a basic understanding of liability issues as related to self defense...you are doing it wrong.
When and if the time comes that you have no time left to think...you had better be confident in the tools and tactics you have previously outlined.

 

[entropy]

What kind of AR do you have?

The idea of AR's needing to be "clean" to run reliably is largely a myth if you aren't talking about some POS gun. See "Filthy 14" for an example of a properly built AR. You need to lubricate them. Lube is much more important than clean.

https://www.slip2000.com/blog/s-w-a-t-magazine-filthy-14/

I typically shoot my ARs suppressed and still don't see a need to be cleaning them all the time to keep them running. One of my Noveskes I put a few cases of dirty wolf ammo through without issue without ever cleaning it. Keep them lubed and they run.

Honestly you probably will need to replace parts before you need to clean it to keep a properly built gun running. I wouldn't let a gun I was staking my life on go 10K rounds without cleaning it, but you could. Having to keep a decent AR clean to keep it running is a myth.

As noted for a HD gun it is a total non issue anyways. There is no good reason not to reasonably maintain and service a weapon on is relying on for defensive use.

To the OP my suggestion would be to get a BCM. There are other guns that are well made and would be perfectly serviceable, Colt for example. I'd get the BCM for a few reasons. They are quality guns from a company dedicated to providing quality guns and who stands behind their products. BCM offers configurations I prefer to those offered by Colt. Given the market there is no reason not to go with a gun like a Colt or BCM.

For a first AR I'd get a 16" gun. The difference in length versus a pinned 14.5 is negligible and not having the pinned device gives you greater flexibility down the road. I'd get a mid-length gas system. I have come to like lighter guns. For that reasons I'd get a light weight barrel with a KMR rail. A lot of the uppers available now have the KMR alpha and I don't see that as being a deal breaker. Its a slightly heavier and less expensive rail. Something like this upper:

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-...ight-Upp-p/bcm-urg-mid-16-bfh-elw-kmr-a15.htm

Put it on an in spec lower, properly assembled with a quality parts kit and you are in business. As noted above, add an aimpoint, a light and a sling and you are pretty well set.

I don't. I have an AK. The AR's I was talking about were actually issued M16A1's that the REMF's in my unit did not and would not clean correctly in order to keep them functioning. Toss on top of that my first experience with the M16A1- being handed an overlubed rifle in December in Minnesota with just enough time to load the blanks (ROTC FTX, the rifle was from an NG Armory) before firing. Three rounds and it gummed up. I learned somewhat how the early troops in VN must have felt, having to pull their M16 apart and clean it in a firefight. (course, there were no bullets coming at me, THANK GOODNESS!) and you can see why I have a dim view of the DI AR. (The piston guns are a different story.)
Don't get me wrong-The AK has it's faults, too. And you'll note I did recommend the AR to the OP; not the AK. Most AR's out there will be babied, lovingly cleaned after each range session, and will probably never have more than the occasional hiccup on the range. Heck, my AK is, though it never has the hiccups. I probably will never test the AK's ability to keep firing no matter what, (I actually have to use blanks to practice malfunction drills, whereas with some AR's, I get the chance to reinforce the voluminous amount of 'training' I have in clearing them, mostly for others on the range, in the Army) but it's nice to know my rifle is boringly reliable.

 

[agtman]

You don't give them an even break. If someone is worried about where their kids sleep and being in the line of fire, you just discovered a FLAW in your HD plans and it needs to be addressed by controlling their proximity to a lane of fire - not disarming yourself with junk ammo.

Actually, Tirod makes a great point about this type of overly risk-conscious thinking.

In the real world, there's no such thing as a "fair" fight. That only occurs in heavily regulated, rule-laden fighting sports or "games," like boxing or, maybe, MMA.

In a home invasion scenario, where the lives of you and yours are at risk, you unload with the most effective ammo that you were able to obtain beforehand to STOP the bad guys.

 

[eldon519]

Except that it represents an artificial dichotomy between good performance and low penetration. Hornady 75gr TAP2 is one of the most effective 5.56/.223 rounds, yet it disintegrates when going through plywood meaning it is less likely to leave your house. It will go through a couple layers of drywall but comes apart after that. It's not that different from the Mk262 round the military has used.

 

[Hookeye]

AR gets my vote (and I don't really care for them).

Rural, even a 16" will double as a decent coyote or groundhog rig (please use varmint bullet ammo).

 

[allivak]

Hey allivak,
This is the point. To deliberate scenarios, before the time comes.
If you dont have at least a basic understanding of liability issues as related to self defense...you are doing it wrong.
When and if the time comes that you have no time left to think...you had better be confident in the tools and tactics you have previously outlined.

sure it cannot hurt to practice and train, or to think ahead of time about which ammo is less likely to over penetrate and hurt an innocent person. i have no issue with these things and despite what I previously said, the more training and experience you have, the more likely you are to fall back on it instead of just freaking out. but lets be realistic about it....

my original post was referring mostly to one person that was talking about how you should be more concerned with having proper lanes of fire with backstops and such instead of using "hype ammo". i'm not going to address the ammo part of the over-penetration issue...but I don't think making elaborate plans with proper LOFs and such is a realistic solution either...at least not for 99% of self-defense situations that would actually call for shooting at someone with your guns(unless you're talking about SHTF type scenarios and at that point, liability would be a non-issue).

 

[d2wing]

To be fair, some of us in Minnesota use our AR's in sub zero or sub freezing weather on deer, coyotes and target shooting. Old petroleum oils will gum up actions. But light use of synthetic gun oils, or Moly dry lube works very well. A fairly clean rifle with very light oil in type and amount works fine in all weather. I would not dispute that an abused AK might be more reliable than an abused AR.

 

[eldon519]

<delete>

 

[Gravedigger56]

Sig MPX.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

An AR15 is an excellent choice. If you decide on one, it's highly recommended getting Hornady TAP ammo.

 

[FrankCastleThePunisher]

Sig MPX.

I agree the Sig MPX makes for a good home defense gun with its 30 rd. magazine, and a laser/light on it. If only I could get some more mags.

 

[Woolecox]

Well, if you want something akin to your A2, a BCM A4 or Colt A4 would run you about $1200. Really would come down to a coin toss for those two.

If you wanted something slightly more purpose-driven for HD, I'd get a 16". $1500 would easily get you;
-Colt 6920
-Aimpoint PRO
-Surefire G2X/IWC Mount combo
-10 D&H Magazines.

You'd break the $1500 plane with ammo, but there you have all you'd need to have a fantastic defensive setup for just a bit over $1500. No frills, just good quality.

That is real good advice there, and has pretty much been my exact home defense set up for the past 2 decades. Also, mine has been with me on a few pig hunts.

But if you want something different, yes! The MPX is great. I got one last week. Cant tell you how impressed I am with this little gun.

 

[FrankCastleThePunisher]

That is real good advice there, and has pretty much been my exact home defense set up for the past 2 decades. Also, mine has been with me on a few pig hunts.

But if you want something different, yes! The MPX is great. I got one last week. Cant tell you how impressed I am with this little gun.

Congrats on getting your MPX. Do you like the EOTECH on the MPX, and does it make it too heavy? I really like my MPX and am looking to put a RDS on it.