Best home defense rifle?

[Bartholomew Roberts]

You just compared the SLOWEST 5.7x28 to the FASTEST .22mag

No, I compared a 40gr Hornady VMAX SS197 to a 40gr CCI MaxiMag JHP. The reason I chose the SS197 for comparison is because the original post I replied to was asserting that the 5.7x28 round was not really a pistol caliber and I wanted to take a look at the ballistics gel shots to see if that was true. It isn't - the 5.7x28 destroys tissue by crushing a wound channel like a pistol caliber. It doesn't move fast enough for its size to create damage through a big stretch cavity.

I then used a comparitive round (the Remington 40gr JHP because it just so happened that the same guy had also tested that in ballistics gel from a rifle) to make the point that 5.7x28 is a pistol caliber round.

In both cases, I was careful to specify the rounds being compared as precisely as possible, so I am not sure exactly why you feel so put out.

2,585fps out of a PS90 barrel, which is only 16 inches, still BLOWS AWAY your best .22mag loads out of a 22" barrel.

I wasn't aware of that ammunition. Thanks for pointing it out. If we take the manufacturer's claim at face value, then it looks like this particular round does indeed exceed the typical performance of most 5.7x28/.22WMR - and at only $1.20 a round too. It will be interesting to see how this round develops.

Sorry buddy, but 5.7x28 is a more powerful round, period.

Is there a practical difference in that power? I've read the manufacturer's claims of what the round does - they claim expansion to 0.38", gel penetration of 21" (which is probably excessive for home defense).

The best comparison we have in .22WMR terms is the CCI 40gr TMJ - which completely penetrated 16" of ballistics gel and hit the berm. No expansion - so about a 0.16" smaller wound channel (though considering the x-terminator round travelled through 21" of gel, it seems relevant to ask WHERE the bulk of expansion happened).

Does that strike you as "blowing away" the best .22WMR rounds or as a noticeably more powerful round in terms of effect on target?

 

[TexasRifleman]

A .22WMR or a .22LR rifle can be a very effective defensive tool if the person has the rights skills and mindset. I certainly wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of one. Having said that, it wouldn't be my top choice and neither would a PS90 for similar reasons.

I have to agree with BR, though I will say that I do own a PS90 for a home defense rifle, and I'll tell you why.

My wife and teenage son can fire that weapon 50 times with basically no recoil and no need to worry about reloading. It's short, light, and has a short LOP for their smaller bodies. The funky looking grip happens to be ergonomically perfect for them, and a tape switch is in the right spot to turn the light on and off without them having to think about it. The rotating safety for whatever reason seems more "common sense" to them than the one on an AR, and they like the sights. It's got a big heavy trigger pull so I don't have to worry about them getting into a situation where the adrenaline causes them to feather the trigger and accidentally bump fire.

For those reasons I think it's just about the perfect home defense carbine for them.

Not my first choice, but a very valid choice for some. I would not want to be on the receiving end of one.

 

[Maverick223]

Sorry buddy, but 5.7x28 is a more powerful round, period.

How bout we just agree that the 5.7x28mm can at best match the sheer awesomeness of the venerable, awe-inspiring, massive....22Hornet. Hmm, still not overly impressive is it?

 

[tescrex]

If, you end up looking at a 5.56, I don't see any reason to spend a ton of money on an AR platform if it is simply for home defense. If you plan on plinking, having fun at the range, and want to get into precision shooting, the AR is a great choice.

But, if the POU is simple home defense with a few outings to the range to have some fun and get comfortable with the system, the SU-16C seems to be a better option in this case because of the price, and simple mechanics.

 

[Big Bill]

I second the Ruger mini 14. Look for a good used one. If you want and inexpensive 9mm rifle, then the Hi Point 9mm carbine may be just the ticket.

 

[kludge]

1. .30 Carbine + appropriate ammo (not ball).
2. Something in .45 ACP (camp carbine?)

 

[stogiegila]

Thanks for all the info guys. It was a bit overwhelming, but I did some research and spoke to a few people based on the comments here.

I've narrowed it down to the following, based on cost, appeal, affectiveness, style, ease of use, and the rarity of actually being used.

That said I think I will go with either a Ruger Mini 14 or a shotgun with low recoil tactical loads.

In speaking with several people that know me and my build as well as what I had done on my shoulder, they indicated that I am too worried about the actual recoil (as I've never shot a shotgun) than what it will actually produce and they think I can handle it without issue. Unless I plan on doing some major shooting with it.

I like the .223, as it seems to be able to do the job, while not overpenetrate. The recoil seems to be a non issue. The Ruger Mini is small and manuverable and I like the 5, 20, or 30 round mags.

The shotgun has pluses in that you don't need to be quite as accurate. It has a higher fear factor (i.e. racking the slide), needs little maintenance and is extremely easy to use. It is also very manuverable and inexpensive. And ammo is cheap.

I do have to admit, I never expected so many responses. While I really like the look of the ARs and they excel in the cool factor. They are just way out of my price range.

The long gun will hardly ever get used, as my first weapon of defense is my Colt .45acp. I want one for the day when the SHTF and I need some major protection for my family.

Thanks everyone for the help. I learned a ton of stuff from this thread.

 

[General Geoff]

The shotgun has pluses in that you don't need to be quite as accurate.

This is a myth. You STILL MUST AIM A SHOTGUN. The pattern out of an 18" full cylinder bore 12 gauge at 5 yards is no bigger than your fist, and will be even smaller the closer you are.

 

[stogiegila]

I agree Geoff, but a fist is a lot bigger than a needle. I'm a believer in that everything needs to be aimed.

 

[cal74]

Haven't read all the posts, but I'd just assumed be armed with a shotgun as well.

Agree with the above statement and would rather have a 4-6" pattern than an 1/8" bullet.

PLUS, there's little worry that a shotgun with lighter shot will continue to penetrate past multiple walls and thus decreasing the danger of putting someone else at a risk of a gunshot wound.

 

[General Geoff]

PLUS, there's little worry that a shotgun with lighter shot will continue to penetrate past multiple walls and thus decreasing the danger of putting someone else at a risk of a gunshot wound.

Jesus christ, why won't this myth die already? .223 DOES NOT PENETRATE MORE THAN BUCKSHOT.

Birdshot does not have sufficient penetration to reliably stop an attacker.

 

[mljdeckard]

If you guys don't believe Geoff, you need to do some homework.

Lose this 'overpenetration' concern. There are two kinds of defensive shots. Those that hit the target and continue to what is beyond, and those that MISS the target and continue to what is beyond. There is no such thing as a round that is effective for defensive use AND doesn't have enough power to overpenetrate. Rule #4 ALWAYS applies. On the range, in a training class, hunting, fighting for your life, fighting under the protection of your government on the battlefield. You are ALWAYS responsible.

My primary is a shotgun with #4 buck, my wife's primary is an M-1 carbine.

 

[Maverick223]

I wouldn't recommend a scattergun if you have a bad shoulder. The 12Ga. has a stout recoil even with reduced recoil loads, the .410 doesn't but is too weak IMO (not to say that it won't get the job done, just not as good as a comparable rifle), even the 20Ga. has fairly stout recoil. I feel that the carbine would be your best bet, but if you decide on a shotgun make it a 20Ga. automatic (Saiga?) with a good recoil pad, comfortable stock, and most importantly shoot one before you buy.

 

[Zerodefect]

The thing about my PS90 when I compare it to my Colt 6920 is it alot quicker to move. Under pressure that extra speed gives you a hair more time to aim. In extreme CQB my ps90 walks all over my AR, and thats with a 16" barrel on both.

The ps90 ergos are perfect if you have yours tuned right and are useing the proper stance. The stock sight is best suited for target practice. As in useing as a target. LOL. Junk that sight and get a Tros Aimpoint Lowmount with a Comp m3 and the gun transforms into something alot better and quicker.

And don't forget that making a batch of hotter defense ammo to reach the proper recommeded 12-14" gel penetration isn't rocket science or anything.

 

[mshootnit]

I don't know your exact situation but I have one word:
THOMPSON

 

[OrangePwrx9]

Going through the thread, .223 seems to be the choice of the consensus. If money's not a concern, an AR15 with 16" barrel would work. So would a Mini-14 for less money. My pick would be a 16" .223 Saiga going new for about half what a Mini-14 sells for...and featuring world famous Kaslashnikov reliability.

They look a bit dorky, but they do work.
Bob

 

[Hammerhead6814]

But, if the POU is...

SSHHHH!

Talking like that means reviews! Reviews means nutnfancy! nutnfancy means nine minutes thirty seconds of a wasted life!

It's simply amazing how many people are choosing the AR-15 when cheaper, lighter, close-quarters designed weapons like any pistol-caliber rifle or the AK are around. For some reason people have it in their heads that .223 inches of lead will stop in the bad-guy at only 10-20 yards. Or that they need sub-MOA accuracy for a guy within inside-voice distances. OR that they need an aim-point or ACOG for those 10-20 yards!

Seriously, guys, the AR is a distance rifle. Distance meaning 100 yards+. Unless your living on the Scarface mansion, you've bought a weapon designed for something entirely different than what the scenario calls for.

The 12Ga. has a stout recoil even with reduced recoil loads

I'm going to pretend I never head that.

 

[Maverick223]

I'm going to pretend I never head that.

I didn't say that it wasn't manageable for most folks, but the OP apparently has a pretty bad shoulder. I am sure that he wouldn't mind the inconvenience of messing that shoulder up if called upon in a HD/SD role...but one must train with a firearm to become and maintain proficiency...that little detail may lead to problems with a 12Ga. Note that this is coming from a guy that likes his magnum rifles and uses a 12Ga. shotgun for primary HD duty himself. I just recognize that some (probably most) folks aren't like me, and the OP is probably counted amongst those.

 

[atomd]

Seriously, guys, the AR is a distance rifle. Distance meaning 100 yards+. Unless your living on the Scarface mansion, you've bought a weapon designed for something entirely different than what the scenario calls for.

I gotta disagree with you once again. If the AR is strictly a 100 yard+ gun then why are our guys kicking down doors with M4s over in Iraq and Afghanistan? Seems like if they didn't work well inside close quarters our military would switch over to........uhhhhhhh.... .40S&W Hi point Carbines? Might save some money too!

And you're saying the AK is but the AR isn't? You have 2 guns that while very different in design are the same class of firearm and are fairly close to the same size and weight...that can have the same length barrel....both semi auto with 30 round magazines, both firing rounds that would completely ruin someone's day...but one is a great close quarters gun and the other is a purely 100+ yard gun? That makes no sense at all. You can't be saying the .223 isn't powerful enough because you say pistol caliber carbines would work well. So what is it exactly that makes the AK good for that and the AR poor for it? The .223 might be more accurate out around 300 yards but inside a house (or even within 100 yards) wouldn't matter either way. It just plain doesn't make any sense....unless you just don't really care for the AR. That's fine but your argument just way off base.

I think an AR, AK, or even something like a CX4 would work just fine...as long as that particular example was reliable and the owner could operate it well. I like the AR myself.

 

[pmeisel]

Depends on the home.

I have looked around and the longest shot I would ever need to make, or could, would be 80 yards, and that's unlikely. Mostly 20 yards or less.

I am very comfortable with my Mossberg 500 and my revolvers.

 

[winchester '97]

I would have to say for best overall HD rifle the Beretta c4x storm im .45, great knockdown power, fairly accurate, reliable, and handles great. If you are on a budget i would have to reccomend either cutting down a cheap shotgun as others have said, or getting the high point carbine in either 9mm or 40 s&w. With an ATI stock the high point handles like a beretta storm, and their carbines are actually very reliable and decently accurate. The new, better quality Wasr-10/63 series ak rifles are about 400 or so and will do everything you need as an hd gun, plus the larger 7.62 round which is also cheaper to shoot than a .223, and is supposedly on par with the 30-30 round.

 

[Averageman]

This one got to me wih a dinged stock and barrel. I cut everything down to make it a nice home defence rifle..has a flashlight now in a WWGuns mount.

 

[rfurtkamp]

If the AR is strictly a 100 yard+ gun then why are our guys kicking down doors with M4s over in Iraq and Afghanistan?

Because it's what they're issued.

Work for most scenarios doesn't mean work for one specific in the best sense.

This is the fundamental danger of using 'what the military or police use must be the best' as a yardstick blindly.

 

[sv51macross]

Because it's what they're issued.

Work for most scenarios doesn't mean work for one specific in the best sense.

This is the fundamental danger of using 'what the military or police use must be the best' as a yardstick blindly.

Better to ask why SWAT agencies are switching over to the M4 platform.

 

[rfurtkamp]

Better to ask why SWAT agencies are switching over to the M4 platform.

Free/discounted mil surplus m16s and all the same military advantages of commonality of caliber/training/parts for what you use in the squad car and elsewhere, and the ability to switch to 11.5" uppers etc.

What I want for civilian (or other) defense is far different than what I'd want for agency-wide usage.