Semi-auto rifle for home defense

[Woolecox]

Congrats on getting your MPX. Do you like the EOTECH on the MPX, and does it make it too heavy? I really like my MPX and am looking to put a RDS on it.

Thanks! I do like the EOTech for this gun. So small, even though it is all metal (no polymer), its not heavy at all. I have debated swapping the Aimpoint M4 Comp that is on my Colt but it is bigger and bulkier. Looks like a lot of new MPX owners are going with the Aimpoint T-1 Micro. All just preference.

I have the collapsible stock on order from Sig but it might be a while. Will probably be another 4-5 months before the stamp gets back on my suppressor. Extra 30 rnd mags on order too. All home D guns must have a light. Undecided about that but may go with the Streamlight TLR-1HL.

I will post pics when it is all done.

This thing is just a blast and it is keeping me and my Dillon RL550B busy. I just love it. I have always been a Sig fanboy but they have outdone themselves here.

 

[AStone]

Just found this thread. Considering my first AR (more for hunting, since I like my new 9 for HD/SD, but all around rifle).

Way behind reading, but what I've read so far is thought-provoking. The issue of hearing protection addressed in #27 is especially interesting.

Will catch up ...

 

[Browning]

Add another vote for a Colt 6920. Maybe make it a package deal. Something like....

-Colt 6920 with a 16" inch 1/7 barrel - $850
-Aimpoint H-1 Micro Red Dot Sight and 20 D&H 30 rd mags - $629 (*Click*)
-American Defense ($80) or LaRue mount ($107)

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Depending on which mount you went with that would be either $1559 (American Defense) or $1586 (LaRue) for the AR, Aimpoint red dot sight (which you can just leave on and a single battery will last you 5+ years), the mount and 20 mags.

You can sometimes find Colt 6920's on sale for $799.



I just threw up $850 as that's the lowest price on gunbroker.
Colt's are awesome too. You could go with Noveske or Daniel Defense, but it's not like you're getting more gun.

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After you recoup from the cost maybe take a 2 day carbine course. Locally for me there's Tac-Pro, I'm sure there are several reputable trainers in your area to stay current.

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For hearing protection I keep a pair of electronic ear muffs by the bed. Gunshots indoors are really, really loud.

 

[Theohazard]

Woolecox: I'm confused by the picture of your MPX in post #49. Isn't the MPX only offered in 9mm, .40, and .357 SIG? But you have either a 5.56 M4-2000 or a 7.62 SDN-6 AAC silencer on it in the picture (they look too similar for me to be sure which one it is). Regardless of which can it is, it's not going to work well on a pistol-caliber carbine like the MPX...

Did you just slip the can over the flash hider for the sake of that picture, or am I missing something here?

 

[entropy]

To be fair, some of us in Minnesota use our AR's in sub zero or sub freezing weather on deer, coyotes and target shooting. Old petroleum oils will gum up actions. But light use of synthetic gun oils, or Moly dry lube works very well. A fairly clean rifle with very light oil in type and amount works fine in all weather. I would not dispute that an abused AK might be more reliable than an abused AR.

Yes, I know they get used in MN, and here in WI. My son plans on hunting with his this fall. And sure, there are some dandy lubricants out there, (I really like TW-25B) but in 1981 in the MN Natl. Guard, the lube was LSA, which will gum up an M16A1 fast.
Is .223 legal for deer in MN now? It wasn't when I last lived there. (1993)

 

[Girodin]

How is shooting the MPX suppressed. I was almost sold on getting one but It seems a lot of reviews are saying gas/debris to the face is notably bad with the MPX. I'd shoot mine suppressed the majority of the time.

 

[Woolecox]

Woolecox: I'm confused by the picture of your MPX in post #49. Isn't the MPX only offered in 9mm, .40, and .357 SIG? But you have either a 5.56 M4-2000 or a 7.62 SDN-6 AAC silencer on it in the picture (they look too similar for me to be sure which one it is). Regardless of which can it is, it's not going to work well on a pistol-caliber carbine like the MPX...

Did you just slip the can over the flash hider for the sake of that picture, or am I missing something here?

Hey good eye! I took that picture in the store and just slid that suppressor on there to take some glamour shots. My actual can is the 9mm AAC Ti-Rant. The store had one in stock (which I bought) but the piston for the MPX had to be ordered. Also, just filed the stamp last week so it is going to be a few month before I can take it home.

You know your stuff!

 

[Woolecox]

How is shooting the MPX suppressed. I was almost sold on getting one but It seems a lot of reviews are saying gas/debris to the face is notably bad with the MPX. I'd shoot mine suppressed the majority of the time.

I can't say for sure. My stamp won't be in for another few months. I asked Sig about it; "will it need a different gas bock?". They said no. It's designed to run as is suppressed or unsurpassed. Keep in mind that it is technically a piston driven system, not direct gas impingement.

I did see some goober whining about gas discharge when he was comparing it to the Evo. He is the only one. If you look at some of the other slow-mo videos of it being shot suppressed, what gas you can see coming out of the ejector port is directed forward. I had zero issues with it shooting it on an indoor range unsuppressed.

We will see when the can gets here. I suspect it will be no better/worse than any other AR type gas operated gun. Being that in it's civilian pistol version, if you stick the pistol grip up to your face, you are probably going to feel/smell some powder.

I am going to Form-1 and put a stock on it anyway. I know everyone hypes their own gear but I am really impressed with the MPX. I have had a dozen AR's over the years. This is my first and only SMG. Its nice!

 

[joem1945]

For home defence I'd recommend a riot type shotgun with # 4 oe # 6 shot. hard to miss in the dark. I have a pump and I feel the CA-Chink factor is worth a bunch. Ithaca is my first choice (no disconnector).

 

[benEzra]

The idea of AR's needing to be "clean" to run reliably is largely a myth if you aren't talking about some POS gun. See "Filthy 14" for an example of a properly built AR. You need to lubricate them. Lube is much more important than clean.

Yup. And AK's need lubrication for best reliability also; the Russian AK manual says run them wet in harsh conditions, just like an AR should be. So do SKS's (which I can verify from personal experience; dried out Russian SKS + accumulated powder fouling = manually operated repeater). Oil keeps debris mobile and powder residue soft rather than solid.

 

[Woolecox]

For home defence I'd recommend a riot type shotgun with # 4 oe # 6 shot. hard to miss in the dark. I have a pump and I feel the CA-Chink factor is worth a bunch. Ithaca is my first choice (no disconnector).

Yeah not bad but what do you do when the Perp has your wife, child, neighbor held with a knife to the throat?

Shotguns can be suppressed now but even my Benelli M2 Tactical with 18" barrel is long and unwieldy, especially with a can on it. If anyone thinks that suppressors are just a bunch of hype for home D then, find yourself a closed room you can shoot in and pop off a round with no hearing protection.

Anything is better than throwing rocks but give me an suppressed SBR with a good tactical light and some sort of low light CQB optic. Take tactical course, practice at short and long ranges, practice in the dark, and practice, practice.

One of the scenarios we would practice during IDPA shoots is to have your buddy load up three of your magazines with unknown quantities of ammo. You stick them in your belt and never know when your gun will run dry during the course of fire. Excellent for tactical reloads on the fly!



Notice the swinging popper beside the head of my steel target. Good for hostage type scenario practice.

 

[Vernon1]

Home Defense Options

FWIW

Allow me to introduce you to my good friend Mr. O.S. Mossberg.

Take a seat. Care for some tea?

Now, were you speaking about home defense weapons?

Lets take a look at some models I make that have withstood the test of time...

Ah, the first is the Model 500-yes,yes it's a pump...

 

[Theohazard]

Hey good eye! I took that picture in the store and just slid that suppressor on there to take some glamour shots. My actual can is the 9mm AAC Ti-Rant. The store had one in stock (which I bought) but the piston for the MPX had to be ordered. Also, just filed the stamp last week so it is going to be a few month before I can take it home.

You know your stuff!

Thanks! Yeah, I figured that's what happened, but I didn't know how much silencer experience you have, and I was afraid that maybe some idiot gun store clerk had sold you a 5.56 or 7.62 can for your MPX.

Also -- just in case you don't already have it on order -- make sure to get a fixed-barrel spacer along with your 13.5x1 piston; the spacer replaces the spring in the piston assembly and keeps the can from bouncing back and forth on a fixed barrel. According to most silencer companies, if you shoot a pistol can that has a piston assembly on a fixed barrel, you can damage your threads if you don't have a fixed-barrel spacer (or some other kind of fixed-barrel mount like some other companies offer).

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/12...-rant-9-eco-9-evo-9-supressors-aluminum-black

I've never actually seen this thread damage occur, but I've never seen anyone do this with a large round count. I tend to think it's probably fine for occasional shooting, but if you plan to shoot it with the silencer a lot, get a fixed-barrel spacer.

 

[Woolecox]

I will check and see if my dealer ordered the spacer with the piston. Thanks for the info.

 

[md7]

OP,

Post #3 in this thread makes a lot of sense for rural HD in my opinion. That's a great set up that should be doable with your budget and you're already familiar with the AR from having been issued an M16 previously.

The only thing I'd add is to consider the 6720 also. It's a nice rifle and is going for 799.00 on some sites. The 6920 is fine too.

Also, you may want to consider picking up an adjustable 2 point sling like a blue force vcas.

 

[Woolecox]

The last thing I am going to worry about in a gun fight for my life is the report and concussion of the weapon. In times of crisis such as that the human body is amazing at protection. Auditory exclusion will kick in and help protect your hearing. It will not save it, but it will help cushion the first few shots. But again, I can worry about that after someone is not trying to kill me.

Hey Robert. I agree with you up to a point. Report and concussion may be the last thing I worry about during a gunfight but it is still something I give serious consideration to, non the less.

Having had the misfortune of a weapon being fired in close quarters with no hearing protection on two occasions (once was a 12 gauge in a vehicle, once a 5.56 in a house), I can tell you that you will completely lose you hearing temporarily.

Obviously, long term hearing loss is a concern. I have permanent hearing damage to my right ear from that shotgun incident. The immediate concern to me would be of a tactical nature. Imagine your front door being kicked in, then shots ring out. That threat is neutralized but now, the perp’s partner in crime kicks down your back door and is approaching from behind. You will never hear them because you are temporarily deaf.

Losing one of your senses (hearing) in a tactical situation can never be good thing. It may be a little over the top “Rambo” for most of us "has been’s" but, a moving shooter with a suppressed weapon is much harder to locate as well.

Just a thought, and the reason I will alway have a suppressed SBR handy for home D.

 

[Woolecox]

Thanks! Yeah, I figured that's what happened, but I didn't know how much silencer experience you have, and I was afraid that maybe some idiot gun store clerk had sold you a 5.56 or 7.62 can for your MPX.

Also -- just in case you don't already have it on order -- make sure to get a fixed-barrel spacer along with your 13.5x1 piston; the spacer replaces the spring in the piston assembly and keeps the can from bouncing back and forth on a fixed barrel. According to most silencer companies, if you shoot a pistol can that has a piston assembly on a fixed barrel, you can damage your threads if you don't have a fixed-barrel spacer (or some other kind of fixed-barrel mount like some other companies offer).

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/12...-rant-9-eco-9-evo-9-supressors-aluminum-black

I've never actually seen this thread damage occur, but I've never seen anyone do this with a large round count. I tend to think it's probably fine for occasional shooting, but if you plan to shoot it with the silencer a lot, get a fixed-barrel spacer.

Theohazard,

Wanted to thank you for the heads up on the spacer. At the moment, there are non to be had on the planet that I can find. My Dealer said he was aware of it and was holding my Form 4 until we can get it sorted out. I have an email into AAC as well. They show them out of stock on their site.

We may have to go with a different can.

 

[eldon519]

An 18.5" shotgun is quite a bit longer than a collapsed 16" AR. I guess which setting you keep the stock on would determine how much shorter the AR is in use for you. Pump shotguns are also easy to jam via operator error. Low capacity and slow to reload. Follow up shots are slow compared to an AR. Anything loaded heavy enough to reliably incapacitate someone is going to have all the same problems of overpenetration as anything else, if not worse. Other than being cheaper, I don't personally see much advantage to a shotgun for HD. I'm not even going to address the opinion that racking the slide is going to run off the bad guys.

 

[ATN082268]

What I got...

I apologize for not updating what I got sooner but I had a lot of thinking to do I decided on a Colt 6920 with some extra mags and a bunch of ammunition to practice with. I may get other stuff later but I wanted to brush up on my skills a bit first. I wanted to thank everyone for their input and I'm sure I'll post some updates somewhere to let you know about the fun I am having !!!

 

[md7]

Congrats on the purchase, ATN.

I think you'll be pleased with it.

 

[Girodin]

I did see some goober whining about gas discharge when he was comparing it to the Evo. He is the only one

I've actually heard this complaint from multiple people. Admittedly it is not a huge number but I tend to put more stock in reports of people I can talk to than simply internet videos or chatter. I have seen conflicting reports on the issue from some online sources. Also different cans can be better or worse in that regard. Some people seem to suggest it is worse than a number of other guns in that respect. Some suspect it is a result of the self regulating gas piston that the gun uses. I don't know about all that but I am interested in hearing from as many actual users as possible. I'm in the market for a 9x19 SBR but it would probably be shot suppressed most of the time so if it is as bad some people have suggested that it kind of a turn off and might push me in another direction.

Being that in it's civilian pistol version, if you stick the pistol grip up to your face, you are probably going to feel/smell some powder.

Does anyone buy one without the intent to make it into an SBR? If I had one in it would be an SBR as soon as I could get a stamp.

I suspect it will be no better/worse than any other AR type gas operated gun.

What other ARs and cans have you used? I'm trying to get a point of reference for your comment. What makes you think it would be the same. It is a different operating system.

I know everyone hypes their own gear but I am really impressed with the MPX. I have had a dozen AR's over the years. This is my first and only SMG. Its nice!

How many rounds do you have through it? How have you used it? What about it impresses you? It is on the list of guns I'm considering for 9x19 SBR. I'm seeking all the feed back from actual users I can get. On paper there is a lot to like. However, real world can be different from paper. And Sig has not inspired a lot of confidence in their recent rifle releases.

Thanks for any feedback you can offer.

 

[Warp]

Personally I think it is hard to beat a suppressed short barrel AR type rifle for home defense.

As short as, if not shorter than, a 16", no real concern over being temporarily blind/deaf/disoriented, low risk of 'over penetration' (for something that can reliably stop an attacker), excellent ergonomics, capacity, low felt recoil, quick follow up shots, easy to mount an optic or white light if you desire

I apologize for not updating what I got sooner but I had a lot of thinking to do I decided on a Colt 6920 with some extra mags and a bunch of ammunition to practice with. I may get other stuff later but I wanted to brush up on my skills a bit first. I wanted to thank everyone for their input and I'm sure I'll post some updates somewhere to let you know about the fun I am having !!!

Definitely a fine choice

 

[agtman]

Personally I think it is hard to beat a suppressed short barrel AR type rifle for home defense.* * *

Agree. I'd rather let loose with an 18" 12ga inside a room-distance frackus than shoot one unsuppressed round out of my 10" SBR.

As short as, if not shorter than, a 16", no real concern over being temporarily blind/deaf/disoriented, low risk of 'over penetration' (for something that can reliably stop an attacker), excellent ergonomics, capacity, low felt recoil, quick follow up shots, easy to mount an optic or white light if you desire.

Yes, the SBR itself is short and handy and all that, ... but the key benefit of running the can is that it prevents you from being temporarily deafened and/or disorientated so that you can maintain your focus on dealing with the attacker(s)/home invader(s).

 

[Woolecox]

I've actually heard this complaint from multiple people. Admittedly it is not a huge number but I tend to put more stock in reports of people I can talk to than simply internet videos or chatter. I have seen conflicting reports on the issue from some online sources. Also different cans can be better or worse in that regard. Some people seem to suggest it is worse than a number of other guns in that respect. Some suspect it is a result of the self regulating gas piston that the gun uses. I don't know about all that but I am interested in hearing from as many actual users as possible. I'm in the market for a 9x19 SBR but it would probably be shot suppressed most of the time so if it is as bad some people have suggested that it kind of a turn off and might push me in another direction.



Does anyone buy one without the intent to make it into an SBR? If I had one in it would be an SBR as soon as I could get a stamp.



What other ARs and cans have you used? I'm trying to get a point of reference for your comment. What makes you think it would be the same. It is a different operating system.



How many rounds do you have through it? How have you used it? What about it impresses you? It is on the list of guns I'm considering for 9x19 SBR. I'm seeking all the feed back from actual users I can get. On paper there is a lot to like. However, real world can be different from paper. And Sig has not inspired a lot of confidence in their recent rifle releases.

Thanks for any feedback you can offer.

As stated in my earlier post, it will be probably a minimum of 4 months before my stamp comes back and I can take my suppressor home or to the range and shoot it on my MPX. Today, I shot 200 rounds through it (un-suppressed). Most were 147 XTP’s, and about 50 Montana Gold 124 hollow points.

The 147 XTP is the bullet that I will use for home/self defense (or something similar). It will be a decent quality 147 Hollow point jacketed bullet of some kind, i.e. Speer Gold Dot, Federal HST, etc. Today, the goal was to get those XTP’s zeroed at 25 yards. That yields .75" low at 50 yards, and 3.5” low at 100 yards. That is about my limit with a Red Dot Sight but, the bullet is still moving at over 900 fps at 100 yards. Not bad and pretty good point blank range out to 100 yards.

The guy I saw whining in one video was NOT shooting suppressed and he was comparing the MPX to the EVO. He admitted he was trying to find something negative to say about the MPX and the gas “issue" was all he could come up with. Still he shot 500 rounds through it, out of the box, with no issues and no failures of any kind. He was in an open field. Today, I was at an indoor 100 yard range, benched up, with a sheet metal partition 8 inches from the ejector port and my face. Not a single sparkle. I can say emphatically, there are no “gas” issue without the can. It will be a while before I can report about the suppressor. Sig says not an issue.

Does anyone buy one without the intent to make it into an SBR? If I had one in it would be an SBR as soon as I could get a stamp.

I have flied the Form 1 and backordered the stock. But, in some of the Commie states, it may never be legal. One nice thing about this setup is that if you ever have to cross one of those states, just take the stock off. It is now a pistol (and way safer).

How many rounds do you have through it? How have you used it? What about it impresses you? It is on the list of guns I'm considering for 9x19 SBR. I'm seeking all the feed back from actual users I can get. On paper there is a lot to like. However, real world can be different from paper. And Sig has not inspired a lot of confidence in their recent rifle releases.

About 500 rounds. All at the range. No shoot outs or raids to date. Zero failures. Eats anything I feed it. Excellent accuracy with any quality ammo. I can shoot clover leafs at 25 yards and I am not that good. Stays accurate even when the gun gets hot and dirty.

Break down (including barrel and gas block removal) takes less than two minutes. Easy to get sparkly clean in a matter of minutes and back to the races. All metal, fit and finish are superb. Ergonomic are just like an AR but with ambidextrous everything. I like the Lancer magazines way better than the Glock, You don’t need a loader to load 30 rounds quickly. Just push straight down and the cartridge clicks into the mag just like any good AR mag. With a little practice, you can load 30 rounds in about a minute.

What other ARs and cans have you used? I'm trying to get a point of reference for your comment. What makes you think it would be the same. It is a different operating system.

I have used M16’s, M-4’s, and to a degree the, MP-5 when I was in the service and or working in LE. I have owned some form of a civilian AR-15, or M-4 since 1982. I have only owned Colt, Noveske, and Larue, in that order. Never had a Sig rifle, so I can’t comment. My Sig experience is limited to P226/P229 pistols, and to this day, is my favorite double stack auto. Fit, form, function, performance, reliability, its all there, just like the MPX.

I currently have a Colt LE6920, Noveske M4 in 300 BLK, and a Larue OBR 5.56. I have an AAC SDN 7.62 for the Noveske, and a Surefire SOCOM for the Larue and Colt. The Larue has a "switch block” for shooting suppressed, the 300 BLK is designed to run without one, and it sucks to shoot the Colt with a can on it. Think pizza face.

I wish I could compare this little SMG to others but I have never owned anything like it. I will be hitting the field with it during November and December for some mock up 3 gun tactical style stuff. Looks to be fun but, I won’t have the can by then.

What else are you thinking about getting? This thing seems to be a new and improved version of the MP-5 in civilian version. I am not really sure what could be “better”. Cheaper maybe. I don’t know.

Other cool things coming:

- 357 Sig, and 40 S&W barrels
- Forarm length is easy change out to cover all or part of suppressor.
- Comes with 3 mountable 1913 picatinny rails for accessories and an additional Single Point Mount.

The worst thing I can say about the MPX so far is that the trigger could be better. It is not the worst trigger on a factory gun I have ever owned (that would be Colt) but its not good either. I’m going to call Sig tomorrow and see if the Geislele is an approved replacement.

 

[Girodin]

Thanks for the feed back. I'm still debating MPX, MP5 clone, AR, scorpion, BT TP9, and other options for a suppressed SBR. They each seem to have pros and cons to my mind anyways. Getting reliable feedback on the sig has been an issue.