Bird-Shot as a Self-Defense Load?

[TimM]

Here is an interesting read as well as a video.

http://shilohtv.com/?p=2490

Bird-Shot as a Self-Defense Load? (With Video)

September 14, 2009 by John Broekhuizen
Filed under Trail Boss Videos

We have done tests with various bird shot loads. The problem with bird-shot is that it does not penetrate enough to be effective as a defense round for the most part. The wound it leaves is gruesome, yet the lack of penetration can be a problem.

However that being said at close range if someone frail or infirm taking up a defensive position behind a bed shooting at a perpetrator coming through the door, it is doubtful the bad guy would soak it up and keep coming. Number 8 has 1 1/8 ounces of shot moving at 1255 FPS and as shown holds a tight pattern at home defense distances, as does #6 and #4. That is a lot of lead hitting all at once. Further a well aimed shot to the neck underarm, belly or crotch area at 10 yards or less would most certainly sever an artery and or cause a tremendous amount of damage. In colder claimants heavy cloths worn by a perpetrator would be an issue when taking upper body shots as the clothing would stop and slow down a good deal of the shot.

Our research showed persons have been killed all over the world with Bird shot at close range, we opted not to post the information here since it is disturbing, but it does work . In the video we say use it if you must, but if you have your choice and have the ability to use something else do so. If you use bird-shot use the full power loads, and be ready for a follow up shot. Shot placement is going to be more critical.

 

[AcceptableUserName]

That's what I've always said. If it's all I had I couldn't see the guy taking 2 or 3 rounds of even number 8 shot and asking for more, hopped up or not...let alone a full mag tube's worth. I just can't picture that. If the guy's armed I wouldn't trust it to prevent him from taking a shot though. This being said, I will stick with 00..

 

[C-grunt]

Still not a good idea. We had a multiple homicide a while back where 3 or 4 guys were all shot a near muzzle contact range with a shotgun using birdshot. One died at the scene and the others died days later from infection and things like that.

That being said, I do believe MOST intruders shot with a load of birdshot will cease their actions. But if that small percentile, the determined attacker, comes in....... you are gonna have a really bad day.

Also I agree with the article on the neck shot. A good close range neck shot, with all the major arteries and veins and the throat in there, would be very devastating.

 

[doublebarrel12]

Sure!! It would work in the confines of a house for the people unable to control "00", such as the elderly. Would also be good for those living in apartments, so they don't kill thier neighbor. A cop came to our school when I was a kid that had taken a hit at the width of a house, they didn't clarify the distance exactly. He had pictures of the wound at the hospital and it was pretty bad. It actually hit his partner standing next to him and you could see the circular pattern that was about 2 1/2ft in diameter. As it stated in the original post, it was more menacing looking than life threatening but he didn't fire back.

 

[JShirley]

I'm pretty sure this is why god made reduced recoil 00 and .223.

J

 

[Fred Fuller]

Once again... go read http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/173_11_041200/herdson/herdson.html . Peripheral hits with birdshot may well not be effective, even at contact distance. The thing is, if you do not get penetrating hits into important parts of the offender's anatomy, nothing is going to be very effective at stopping an attack. How well you hit is at least as important as what you shoot.

lpl

 

[snooperman]

It will work at close distances... BUT

About 20 years ago a man living a mile down the road from my farm shot an intruder with a 410 shotgun at a distance of 7 yards with #6 shot and killed him instantly. The intruder was armed with a revolver and shot at the homeowner and missed , but the one shot from the 410 did it quickly. That said, I would not use bird shot, when there are so many other fine choices to settle the engagement in your favor quickly. The use of BB or #4 buckshot is most acceptable with adequate penetration and less overpenetration. Or, if you are not concerned with overpenetration, then OO buckshot is fine. Bird shot should be left for birds, not humans. Remember , you want to win the fight decisively.

 

[JShirley]

Did you read Lee's link? It took 3 CONTACT shots with #2- WHICH IS LARGER THAN #4- to do the trick there. And the shooter/victim traveled over 130 meters before the third shot. I know of cases where large bears have been stopped by .22 LR and 9x19mm. I don't suggest deliberately using these calibers for bear defense, either.

 

[snooperman]

BB shot is being used by the Coast Guard and Navy

According to Remington for certain applications. Remington is recommending this new load for home defense, and said that penetration tests confirm it to be effective for home defense. Call their ammunition dept. and they will send you literature on it. I do not agree with OO buck for inside the home, too much penetration. My brother who was in Law enforcement for 40 years, also with the DEA and FBI said that the FBI uses #4 buck for inside and OO buck for outside now.

 

[JShirley]

BB is .18 caliber. Even this will lose energy quickly, so will only be effective at fairly close range.

 

[TomADC]

For Years I've had the first two rounds #6 followed by two rounds of 00 buch and just for GP's a slug...
The #6 are loaded very heavy.

 

[TimM]

I suppose it all depends on who you are trying to thwart. Your garden variety burglar would probably split if hit in the face with a load of #6 while a cracked out home invader might respond differently. If that is all you have I guess it is better than nothing but I personally would rater err on the side of caution and use 00.

 

[Cosmoline]

to put that #6 into the rear of a bg at about 20-30' while he's running away from the sight of those twin muzzles.

Then you'd get to spend the some years in prison. But this is indeed another reason why birdshoot is idiotic and has no legitimate place in self defense. You don't get to shoot people to punish them or pepper them with shot. It's both highly illegal and does NOTHING to keep the guy from turning and shooting you.

Your garden variety burglar would probably split if hit in the face with a load of #6 while a cracked out home invader might respond differently.

If you are going to use deadly force, USE DEADLY FORCE. Using a half-measure you intend to merely wound the fellow with encourages shooting when it's not strictly necessary. And that leads to nothing but trouble. Both legal trouble afterwards and the much more pressing problem in front of you. If you are in imminent unlawful deadly peril, the guy you merely "pepper" can still kill you, and probably will.

I've seen squirrels keep running with multiple No. 6 pellets in them. Using small game loads for armed home invaders is profoundly poor judgment. Don't do it. Don't even think about doing it. Even amped up you're still shooting tiny pellets that have exceptionally poor penetration.

 

[PT1911]

http://www.smokewagongear.com/p-119-aguila-12ga-mini-shell-4b-shot.aspx


toss a couple of these little shells down range... they'll work....right?

 

[TimM]

Your garden variety burglar would probably split if hit in the face with a load of #6 while a cracked out home invader might respond differently.

If you are going to use deadly force, USE DEADLY FORCE. Using a half-measure you intend to merely wound the fellow with encourages shooting when it's not strictly necessary. And that leads to nothing but trouble. Both legal trouble afterwards and the much more pressing problem in front of you. If you are in imminent unlawful deadly peril, the guy you merely "pepper" can still kill you, and probably will.

I've seen squirrels keep running with multiple No. 6 pellets in them. Using small game loads for armed home invaders is profoundly poor judgment. Don't do it. Don't even think about doing it. Even amped up you're still shooting tiny pellets that have exceptionally poor penetration.

Just like today's liberal press and journalists you have decided to take one sentence from my original statement and respond to it.... I have nothing else to say except that you should be ashamed of yourself!
__________________

 

[Youngster]

I consider #4 buck to be big birdshot, and that's about the only "birdshot" I'd use for SD out of choice.

 

[Cosmoline]

Apologies TimM. I just get worked up on this topic.

 

[TomADC]

I just went and switched mine out to all Tactical 00 buck, even the rounds in the speed feed stock are 00 buck.
Must have been thinking about over pentration for when the kids still lived at home, regardless now its all 00 buck.

 

[Floppy_D]

All tests performed by, and credits to Brassfetcher:

7 1/2 birdshot on naked gelatin:

5" of penetration.

00 buck, through 4 layers of denim:

16"+ of penetration.

It's any individual's decision to make on their own, but I'd definitely want buck.

 

[OurSafeHome.net]

For an apartment dweller, living in an area where handguns are illegal, birdshot might be Just The Thing<TM>.

 

[EmGeeGeorge]

F=MA right? What about that heavy shot stuff?

 

[zhyla]

From Lee's link (emphasis added):

As suicide weapons they are far from ideal, partly because of the length of the barrel, and partly because of their significant recoil.

Apparently recoil is a concern when choosing suicide weapons . I'm not making a point, just thought it was humorous.

The birdshot thing comes up frequently. One set of people assert that birdshot has insufficient penetration to reliably put down a determined assailant. I think most data supports this. The other set of people assert that buckshot (and handgun/rifle rounds) has enough penetration to be a risk to innocent people in other rooms. The Box of Truth tests in particular support this.

In my opinion it's a risk/return evaluation. Until I have all of my family members behind me or a very clean shot I can't afford to unload buckshot in my house. I understand there are certain people that birdshot is not going to stop or won't stop quickly enough.

One reason I like shotguns is the variety of ammo. Once I've secured my family in my room I can load up some buckshot.

 

[JShirley]

It's also wise to remember that penetration in gelatin is more than in flesh. That 5" of gel might be closer to 3" in flesh. Nasty, but not instantly debilitating in most spots.

J

 

[trol79]

rottweil has T-sized leadshot (5,1mm) sold as buckshot , would this close the gap between buck & birdshot ?

 

[oneounceload]

Number 8 has 1 1/8 ounces of shot moving at 1255 FPS

That is a misnomer - target or bird shot, in 12 gauge, can be had in 7/8 oz loads to 1-1/4 oz, ranging from 1150 to almost 1400 fps.........that can be QUITE a difference - a pigeon shooting load of 7-1/2, running at 1-1/4oz, and about 1400 fps is a WHOLE lot different than a light skeet load of 7/8oz number 9's at 1150 fps.

This is NOT an endorsement of birdshot, but it IS an indication of the wide disparity available and should be considered accordingly