Birdshot For HD?
- Thread starter Fred Fuller
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Carl N. Brown
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Ballistic gel tests of 12 ga shotgun loads show that at
across-the-room ranges, birdshot will penetrate five inches
while buckshot penetrates eighteen inches in ballistic gel
the consistency of flesh.
Birdshot rapidly loses energy: more area and wind resistence
per ounce compared to buckshot.
across-the-room ranges, birdshot will penetrate five inches
while buckshot penetrates eighteen inches in ballistic gel
the consistency of flesh.
Birdshot rapidly loses energy: more area and wind resistence
per ounce compared to buckshot.
Jimmy Newman
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Me too... I've heard plenty of stories of using shotguns to go after wounded big cats, but they've all involved slugs.
hamourkiller
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To each his owne. Use what ever helps you to sleep at night. 2 3/4 baby magnum # 1 buck = 20 pellets x 8 loads = 160 .30 cal pellets before reloading.
Works for me.
I have killed deer with both fine shot and buckshot, fine shot is a slow killer unless central nervous system is hit at very close range. Buckshot will break bones and sever the spinal column. Buckshot is unquestionably the better killer of the two.
If over penetration is a concern, you can go with a .223 carbine using the 55 gr soft points. They break up on dry wall and studs, but will devestate the human body at close range.
I have a battery of loaded weapons in the bed room, each has its specific function. Handgun, rifle, shotgun. Become good with all three, know the strengths and weaknesses of each. When the time comes you will know which to pick up.
Works for me.
I have killed deer with both fine shot and buckshot, fine shot is a slow killer unless central nervous system is hit at very close range. Buckshot will break bones and sever the spinal column. Buckshot is unquestionably the better killer of the two.
If over penetration is a concern, you can go with a .223 carbine using the 55 gr soft points. They break up on dry wall and studs, but will devestate the human body at close range.
I have a battery of loaded weapons in the bed room, each has its specific function. Handgun, rifle, shotgun. Become good with all three, know the strengths and weaknesses of each. When the time comes you will know which to pick up.
I would not choose birdshot for home defense. However I have played around with it on various targets. At very close range, say between 3-5 feet even the smallest birdshot will blow 2x4s in half.
I have taken wooden pallets (constructed mainly out of 1 inch planks) apart 1 shot per piece of wood and never had a failure to smash a board.
(cleaning up of course, even though other shooters had left tons of trash mine would have blended in with)
In fact it is quite informative as you can go back a several feet and lose the effect, and go forward and gain the effect. A couple feet changes whether it blows the boards cleanly in two, makes a tear and somewhat blows them apart, or merely peppers them with tiny holes.
If it will blow apart wood like that then I know at a similar distance it would severely damage a limb, a joint, a skull, or the ribs on the chest cavity. It would be like hitting something with a heavy hammer.
Most gelatin tests are done at a safe and uniform distance of over 10 feet away. At that distance the small shot no longer has the effect described above.
I would feel competent at contact distances with bird shot. I would not choose to load bird shot, and I would stick with #1 buck or larger. Perhaps being willing to settle for #4 buck if special circumstances warranted.
Yet any birdshot will do some damage at contact distances.
Think of breeching rounds. If powdered metal at contact distances will smash locks, door frames etc, what do you think it would do to a skull or chest cavity? Well birdshot will be at least as effective from such distances. In fact birdshot is the original breaching load, before rounds were designed for just that purpose. They wouldn't do a thing to the lock from 10 feet away, so why would they do much to ballistic gel from 10 feet away.
Load buckshot, but don't underestimate the anti personel capabilities of birdshot at very close range.
I have taken wooden pallets (constructed mainly out of 1 inch planks) apart 1 shot per piece of wood and never had a failure to smash a board.
(cleaning up of course, even though other shooters had left tons of trash mine would have blended in with)
In fact it is quite informative as you can go back a several feet and lose the effect, and go forward and gain the effect. A couple feet changes whether it blows the boards cleanly in two, makes a tear and somewhat blows them apart, or merely peppers them with tiny holes.
If it will blow apart wood like that then I know at a similar distance it would severely damage a limb, a joint, a skull, or the ribs on the chest cavity. It would be like hitting something with a heavy hammer.
Most gelatin tests are done at a safe and uniform distance of over 10 feet away. At that distance the small shot no longer has the effect described above.
I would feel competent at contact distances with bird shot. I would not choose to load bird shot, and I would stick with #1 buck or larger. Perhaps being willing to settle for #4 buck if special circumstances warranted.
Yet any birdshot will do some damage at contact distances.
Think of breeching rounds. If powdered metal at contact distances will smash locks, door frames etc, what do you think it would do to a skull or chest cavity? Well birdshot will be at least as effective from such distances. In fact birdshot is the original breaching load, before rounds were designed for just that purpose. They wouldn't do a thing to the lock from 10 feet away, so why would they do much to ballistic gel from 10 feet away.
Load buckshot, but don't underestimate the anti personel capabilities of birdshot at very close range.
Gordon
Member
I went thru a "contact distance" course with Louis Awerbuck last year. A shotgun is really easy to snatch or at least divert while you reek havoc at that range if you are trained and have explosive strength.Now if you back off to 20 feet or more your stuff is pretty much out if you try anything. Course at those distances you better be having buckshot.
Carl N. Brown
Member
12ga with birdshot is more credible for home defense than
an RG10 in .22 short or a Clerke First in .32 S&W short.
My HD shotgun is usually with 00 though.
an RG10 in .22 short or a Clerke First in .32 S&W short.
My HD shotgun is usually with 00 though.
KBintheSLC
Member
I would not waste your time with this type of stuff. If the threat does not deserve lethal force, then don't use a gun. If the threat does deserve lethal force, then and only then you pull the gun... including real ammo.
Remember that most perps will be armed too. Why risk your butt?
+1... this says it all.
Jeff F
Member
Buckshot would have probably blown right through that refrigerator and still had the power left to do some major damage.
lesjones
Member
tkendrick , I think you make some good points about shotguns' limitations at range. You really have to know the gun and the match the load to the distance. It isn't easy and that's why the shotgun is a specialized weapon.
I do think you're exaggerating the problem somewhat at home defense ranges. Not many people have 25 yard sighting planes inside their homes. My longest is about 15, and five to eight yards is more likely. 00 Buck would work fine here.
One reason to use shotguns is the sheer power they offer. Nine .33 balls or a single .73 ball weighing an ounce is a heck of a lot of lead to send downrange.
I do think you're exaggerating the problem somewhat at home defense ranges. Not many people have 25 yard sighting planes inside their homes. My longest is about 15, and five to eight yards is more likely. 00 Buck would work fine here.
One reason to use shotguns is the sheer power they offer. Nine .33 balls or a single .73 ball weighing an ounce is a heck of a lot of lead to send downrange.
Rampant_Colt
Member
Birdshot for self defense? No thanks..... Just don't insist that I make the same mistake.
Federal reduced recoil Flight-Control 000 buckshot, Remington reduced recoil slugs, or Winchester low recoil 00 buck for my shotguns.
Federal reduced recoil Flight-Control 000 buckshot, Remington reduced recoil slugs, or Winchester low recoil 00 buck for my shotguns.
32 Magnum
Member
bird shot for home defense.
Last year, my nephew was bow hunting deer from a tree stand 14" up.
A 72 year old man, who was turkey hunting, approached and mistaking my nephew for a treed turkey cut loose with a 12 ga. 3" magnum loaded with #4 birdshot. The state police determined the approx. distance from the shotgun to my nephew was 47 feet. The shot pattern pretty much centered on my nephews upper torso. He was wearing a USMC issue field jacket with liner, a heavy flannel shirt, cotton long john top and a tee-shirt. At the hospital, the doctors removed 39 pellets from my nephew and left about a dozen more in place because of where they were located (he still sheds one now and then). Internal damage included two in the left lung, one in the right, small intestine nicked in three places, two pellets embedded in the liver capsule. The rest of the pellets removed were from back muscles and upper right arm. He had seen the guy approaching and watched as the old feller aimed and squeezed, he turned to his left and raised his right arm just in time to protect his face and neck. He also had a pellet pass through his thumb and two went through his right ear. At that range it didn't kill him, but left him pretty damn sore for about 3 months. The doctor told him that if he had been shot from any closer distance he probably wouldn't have made it - blood loss was pretty severe - it took about 45 minutes to get him to a hospital. The old guy helped him down from the stand and told him to go home and just take a shower and put some iodine on the visible wounds - neither of them thought there was as much damage as there actually was - because "bird shot" isn't very penetrating on clothed humans. He also told my nephew to be more careful, if he was planning to hunt there the next day, because the old feller was going to come back, also Well...the police tracked down the shooter and eventually he was given three months in county lock-up (suspended) 3 years probation, lost his shot gun and his hunting privileges for 10 years.
Last year, my nephew was bow hunting deer from a tree stand 14" up.
A 72 year old man, who was turkey hunting, approached and mistaking my nephew for a treed turkey cut loose with a 12 ga. 3" magnum loaded with #4 birdshot. The state police determined the approx. distance from the shotgun to my nephew was 47 feet. The shot pattern pretty much centered on my nephews upper torso. He was wearing a USMC issue field jacket with liner, a heavy flannel shirt, cotton long john top and a tee-shirt. At the hospital, the doctors removed 39 pellets from my nephew and left about a dozen more in place because of where they were located (he still sheds one now and then). Internal damage included two in the left lung, one in the right, small intestine nicked in three places, two pellets embedded in the liver capsule. The rest of the pellets removed were from back muscles and upper right arm. He had seen the guy approaching and watched as the old feller aimed and squeezed, he turned to his left and raised his right arm just in time to protect his face and neck. He also had a pellet pass through his thumb and two went through his right ear. At that range it didn't kill him, but left him pretty damn sore for about 3 months. The doctor told him that if he had been shot from any closer distance he probably wouldn't have made it - blood loss was pretty severe - it took about 45 minutes to get him to a hospital. The old guy helped him down from the stand and told him to go home and just take a shower and put some iodine on the visible wounds - neither of them thought there was as much damage as there actually was - because "bird shot" isn't very penetrating on clothed humans. He also told my nephew to be more careful, if he was planning to hunt there the next day, because the old feller was going to come back, also Well...the police tracked down the shooter and eventually he was given three months in county lock-up (suspended) 3 years probation, lost his shot gun and his hunting privileges for 10 years.
RNB65
Member
Good post, 32 Mag. Glad to hear your nephew made a good recovery.
Your post is a great real-world example of why birdshot should NEVER be used for HD. The shot did a lot of damage, but it obviously did not incapacitate your nephew. Had he been an armed intruder, particularly one high on crack, crystal meth, ecstasy, or other powerful stimulant, he would have had no trouble returning fire. Bird shot is great on birds, small rodents, and snakes. But for human vermin, I want something with a bit more stopping power -- 00buck and slugs.
Your post is a great real-world example of why birdshot should NEVER be used for HD. The shot did a lot of damage, but it obviously did not incapacitate your nephew. Had he been an armed intruder, particularly one high on crack, crystal meth, ecstasy, or other powerful stimulant, he would have had no trouble returning fire. Bird shot is great on birds, small rodents, and snakes. But for human vermin, I want something with a bit more stopping power -- 00buck and slugs.
rantingredneck
Member
First let me say I'm very happy that your nephew is OK and that the shooter is no longer a danger to other hunters in the woods.
A couple of observations though:
47 feet is 15.67 yards. Not terribly far when you really look at it. Not much farther than the longest distance (about 11 yards) shot that I could take inside my house. And my house is relatively small.
This was also a 3" magnum turkey load of #4 birdshot. Much more powerful than the usual 1 oz or 1 1/8 oz load of #6-#8's that we usually think of as birdshot in these situations.
The wounds your nephew received were serious and life threatening, but were they wounds that would have immediately stopped him if this were an exchange of fire in a defensive situation rather than a hunting accident? I wasn't there and therefore cannot say on that one, but from the description it seems like he could have possibly returned fire had he been armed with a firearm had this been an intentional shooting and not an accident.
I guess the point I'm trying to make is that while your nephews story is an awful one it actually supports the case against birdshot for a defensive load.
May his recovery continue and his hunts be safe from here.
A couple of observations though:
47 feet is 15.67 yards. Not terribly far when you really look at it. Not much farther than the longest distance (about 11 yards) shot that I could take inside my house. And my house is relatively small.
This was also a 3" magnum turkey load of #4 birdshot. Much more powerful than the usual 1 oz or 1 1/8 oz load of #6-#8's that we usually think of as birdshot in these situations.
The wounds your nephew received were serious and life threatening, but were they wounds that would have immediately stopped him if this were an exchange of fire in a defensive situation rather than a hunting accident? I wasn't there and therefore cannot say on that one, but from the description it seems like he could have possibly returned fire had he been armed with a firearm had this been an intentional shooting and not an accident.
I guess the point I'm trying to make is that while your nephews story is an awful one it actually supports the case against birdshot for a defensive load.
May his recovery continue and his hunts be safe from here.
throdgrain
Member
Over here in the Land Of The Perpetually Monitored we cant get buckshot (afaik) , Ive got a couple of boxes of AAA sitting around as my best bet.
What do you guys reckon to the effectivity of AAA?
What do you guys reckon to the effectivity of AAA?
Bartholomew Roberts
Member
Somebody mentioned earlier that 2" of penetration would be just fine... Here is a cross-section of an average human torso. It is 20" wide. Take a look at that and the location of the critical organs and decide if 2" is going to be acceptable (heck...look at some of the angles and ask if 5-6" isn't too shallow).
Charles Foxtrot
Member
.
Been told (at the range, fwiw) that the Secret Service Presidential Detail uses 4/0 Buck in their shotguns.
Anyone confirm/ deny?
Been told (at the range, fwiw) that the Secret Service Presidential Detail uses 4/0 Buck in their shotguns.
Anyone confirm/ deny?
Rampant_Colt
Member
Triple A? LoL
40mm, 57mm? Just kidding.
Do you mean Winchester AA? Trap loads? If so, then no, they're unsuitable for self-defense, but better than nothing
Just don't use anything smaller than #4 buckshot
throdgrain
Member
Well there's not much option really 
AAA carries about 50 pellets I beleive, and is the best bet as I say. Its a long way from no. 6 pigeon shot in fairness, but a long way buckshot too ....
Also in fairness Im a lot less likely to be shot in my home too, but its nice to be prepared
AAA carries about 50 pellets I beleive, and is the best bet as I say. Its a long way from no. 6 pigeon shot in fairness, but a long way buckshot too ....Also in fairness Im a lot less likely to be shot in my home too, but its nice to be prepared
phil_in_cs
Member
as an aside on penetration...
My dad is a retired doctor. He did his interning at Dallas Parkland in the early 1950's. One day ambulances brought in two men, each of whom had been shot with a .22LR pistol in separate instances.
Guy #1 was shot in the upper left chest; entry hole right over the heart. The bullet struck a rib and stopped. Dad pulled it with tweezers and put a band aide on it.
Guy #2 was shot just above the left knee. The bullet hit his femur, deflected upwards, ripped the femoral artery, ripped his lower guts, and ended up in his lung. Dead on arrival.
The point here is that sometimes you never know, and you shouldn't make generalizations from a single instance.
My dad is a retired doctor. He did his interning at Dallas Parkland in the early 1950's. One day ambulances brought in two men, each of whom had been shot with a .22LR pistol in separate instances.
Guy #1 was shot in the upper left chest; entry hole right over the heart. The bullet struck a rib and stopped. Dad pulled it with tweezers and put a band aide on it.
Guy #2 was shot just above the left knee. The bullet hit his femur, deflected upwards, ripped the femoral artery, ripped his lower guts, and ended up in his lung. Dead on arrival.
The point here is that sometimes you never know, and you shouldn't make generalizations from a single instance.
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