Brandishing to stop hostilites?

[Zach S]

Staff: I've never seen a thread from another board, of this fashion, linked here. If its frowned on, I apologize.

For clarification, I am not the thread starter... http://www.corral.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=441057&perpage=35&pagenumber=1 (3 pages)

Ooh boy, am I pissed. Don't expect alot of humor in this one.

About an hour ago, I left the house to go buy some stuff to make dinner with. As always, I grabbed my G27 as I went out the door. Some days I wonder why I have to have carry this thing, 15 minutes ago I found out why.

I bought my stuff and was walking out of the parking lot. I hop into the Fearmont, crank her up and pull to the outsides of the parking lot, near the road. I stop at the stop sign, and pull through. This jackass comes flying up a row, blows through a stop sign, and nearly t-bones me. He then starts hollering at me like it's my fault he ran the stop sign. I blow it off and I keep rolling through the parking lot. He whips in behind me. He starts riding my ???, then pulls up to my drivers side. I can't see if he's doing anything because his wife is in the passenger seat, and I'm trying to concentrate on not getting hit by this jackass.

I go to pull out of the parking lot, and he whips back around behind me and then to my passenger side. There are three lanes pulling out of the parking lot, I'm in the far left hand lane, and he's in the far right hand lane. I start to figure out what this jackass is doing and I reach around behind my waist and put my hand on my Glock. He looks around(for police maybe?), and then I see him open the door and put his foot on the ground.

That's as far as I let him get. I pulled the gun out of the holster and held it up in full view for him to see. Mind you, my windows were still up and I hadn't even made verbal contact with the guy.

He sees the gun(never pointed it at him), mouths something at me, nods his head, and then hops in his truck, and pulls out of the parking lot heading the opposite direction of me.


At least he didn't keep coming. I really didn't want to have to get out the car and take it any further than that.

Then again, I could have used the EATSTREET self defense method and tried to choke him out, but that would necessitate me getting close to him. He being 6'2"+ and me being 5'8", it probably wouldn't have been too pretty. Not to mention I think he had something in his other hand by the way he was getting out of the truck.

Some people just don't know how to act.

Your thoughts/opinions?

 

[HankB]

Did the thread author see a weapon?

He was still in his car, not blocked in. It sounds like he still had opportunity to leave.

In many jurisdictions, pulling out and brandishing your pistol in these circumstances can be twisted to make YOU out to be the aggressor. If the BG called on a cell phone and reported a "man with a gun" had threatened him, the thread author, not the aggressor, would be explaining things to the cops.

And it would be his word and his wife's against the author's.

Sad but true.

 

[WT]

There is something hokey about the story. I don't buy it.

 

[Leatherneck]

If that poster isn't making it all up, he sounds irresponsible to me. Carrying a pistole is for self defense against threat of serious injury or death. This situation hadn't reached that threshold yet. Maybe it was destined to, in which case he could have unholstered and put the gun onn the seat out of sight but "more ready". But IMO he was at serious risk for arrest and charges of brandishing in the situation described.

TC
TFL Survivor

 

[Art Eatman]

Well, I grant that nowadays is the era of the cellphone. And, nowadays, more folks seem willing to lie about who started trouble.

But I've been in that situation. Minding my own business and being hassled in traffic. I can recall two specific occasions where there were "several of them and one of me" in the deal. Both times, my smile and mere display of my pistol put an end to the problem. Or potential problem.

Now, "threat" is in the eye of the beholder. In neither of the above incidents did I point the pistol at anybody. My own definition would be "display", and not threat. "I'm armed; leave me alone." I realize full well that others may differ. Regardless, I'm still alive and didn't add any scars to my own very precious body.

Art

 

[mr_dove]

I don't see why anyone would need to risk their RKBA by brandishing in a situation where it's not appropriate.

Many people feel that brandishing is a lesser degree of force that can be used in a less dangerous situation. I honestly don't think that is the case. We all know that there are millions of situations that are diffused when the BG sees a gun but brandishing alone should not be our intent.

I think that we should never pull our guns out until the situation gets to the point where we are allowed by law to USE the gun. Drawing before the situation is dangerous makes US the agressor or at least the escalator. If the other person happens to have a gun he would probably be more justified than us in using it because he was protecting against an armed threat while we were brandishing or trying to protect against a more vague/unarmed threat.

So, keep 'em holsted 'till you're ready to shoot.

 

[TarpleyG]

Seems to me that Glockers are the type more apt to do something like this. Flame away, I know it is coming, but I know a lot of people that use and carry the "Plastic Fantastic" and they are a different breed from the folks that carry steel and aluminum. Take it for what it is worth. The guy was flat out wrong doing what he did. He could've just driven away.

GT

 

[jsalcedo]

I have run into road rage crazies more than a few times and if brandishing will stop a potentially dangerous situation from escalating I'm for it.

I do recommend being the first to call the police and reporting just so they
don't come to your house later with the SWAT team.

 

[mr_dove]

See, but there's no immediate threat in road rage. They may hurt your car but it's so easy to shut down road rage situations.

LEAVE. If you are driving on the freeway or something, slow down or stop your car. It's so easy.

Remember that while on the street we have a responsability to flee if possible. If the situation is mild enough for brandishing, fleeing would have been legal (brandishing is not).

Maybe Glockers at the type who are too prideful to ever consider retreating. Maybe they are boasting for a fight and a chance to legitimately gun someone down.

 

[csmkersh]

I wonder just how many of the naysayers have been road rage victims. FWIW, over the last 45 years, I've displayed a firearm four different times to defuse a possible violent assault. Don't know what states ya'll are posting from, but here in Texas it isn't against the law to make a threat of force if force itself would be justified (TxPC §9.04). And if an assault did occur, deadly force is justified if force is justified top prevent the assault (TxPC 9.31 & 9.32).

 

[TallPine]

Doesn't seem like the best option in this situation. Why not just drive away?

OTOH, saying that drawing a gun means you must shoot is ridiculous. Are you going to shoot someone in the back who started running away the moment you pulled out your weapon?

 

[Leatherneck]

in Texas it isn't against the law to make a threat of force if force itself would be justified

That's the point: in the situation described, could the poster have shot the guy? No. QED

TC
TFL Survivor

 

[Jay Kominek]

If the assailant hadn't just stepped out of his car, then I'd think this would be fine. After all, the guy is in control of a weapon more lethal than a gun, and is repeatedly threatening you with it. But once he steps out of his car, let him get a few feet away from it, and then zip off.

In a road rage situation, its entirely possible that you won't be this guy's only victim. Its quite easy for something like that to escalate into a multivehicle accident. Escaping from him is well and good for yourself, but may not do the minivan full of girl scouts three car lengths back any good.

 

[jsalcedo]

Fleeing and driving away will not work many times.

A hardcore road rager will keep following you till one of you runs out of gas or gets stuck at a light. Then the physical violence begins with a tire iron, their car, beer bottles, a firearm etc...

Fleeing in traffic with a 3000 Lb automobile is likely to get someone killed.

I was chased by a road rage nut for over 20 miles on one occasion
luckily they swerved onto the shoulder to pass and get along side of me and got a flat tire.

Until you have ben faced with a severe road rage incident I don't think you are qualified to tell others whether brandishing is acceptable or not.

A person who is in road rage is possibly drunk, on drugs, insane and is armed with a 2 ton hunk of metal.

 

[BB93YJ]

I wonder what the ballistic coefficient of your average car is...

Wasn't there so it's hard to say, but if someone is threating my wife and I with their car that can lead me to believe I'm threatened with severe bodily harm or death, so, my pulling my pistol to stop said threat is appropriate.

Oh, as soon as I'm sure of his intent to threaten me with his vehicle, I'm calling the police to report it so I don't end up being seen as the bad guy.

Next comes the pistola...

 

[TallPine]

Until you have ben faced with a severe road rage incident I don't think you are qualified to tell others whether brandishing is acceptable or not.

Okay, I'll remember to tell that to the judge ...

 

[Pendragon]

I think he jumped the gun.

He should have pulled away at that point - or if he was pinned, he should have waited until a threat was clearly established - either with a display of a weapon or letting him get closer.

As it was described, the BG could have said he was just trying to tell him is tire was low on air or something innocuous.

Seems to be a lot of incidents where the GG waits around for the BG when he could flee - not that you ought to flee per se, but at least think of the potential risk of prison or financial ruin.

Also - I think that if you stick around when not really prudent, a jury may see you as instigating or tempting fate or whatnot - sometimes discretion truly is the better part of valor.

 

[Noban]

Seems to me that Glockers are the type more apt to do something like this. Flame away, I know it is coming, but I know a lot of people that use and carry the "Plastic Fantastic" and they are a different breed from the folks that carry steel and aluminum.

Sounds like me. When I carry my Glock, I'm just itching to kill someone, but that Govt. 1911 just makes me a pussycat.

I'm Irish, so I'm also a drunk.

 

[JShirley]

Seems to me that Glockers are the type more apt to do something like this. Flame away, I know it is coming, but I know a lot of people that use and carry the "Plastic Fantastic" and they are a different breed from the folks that carry steel and aluminum.

Seems to me, that internet commandos are the type more apt to do something like this. Flame away, I know it is coming, but I know a lot of people that use and surf the Internet, and they are a different breed from the folks that use good old-fashioned print.

Makes about as much sense, doesn't it?

If anything, the opposite could be argued. Users of modern pistols may be presumed to be more "progressive", and modern defensive pistol usage teaches to draw immediately before firing, as opposed to older ideas that give the user more lattitude as to how he will stop a threat.

John

 

[Sam Adams]

csmkersh

Hi, Sam. Welcome to THR from a fellow San Antonian. We seem to have a bunch on this thread: you, Pendragon (hi, David), Jsalcedo & yours truly. We really ought to get together one of these days for a shooting session - shooting the bull and the bullseyes.

Nice quote of the law regarding the threat of force, but I've got a question: if the guy had just stepped out of the car, how was he enough of a threat to justify the use of force AT THAT MOMENT? Oh, he could have become one a few seconds later, but at that particular moment I don't think he was one. I think that a prosecutor would have a field day with you (and, later on, so would your new cellmate, Bubba, who hasn't had a girlfriend lately). I agree with Pendragon that the writer "jumped the gun" a bit. I, personally, would have either pulled away when he got closer to my car or, if that wasn't possible (hard to say based on the description - maybe there was too much traffic to pull out of the lot?), then I'd have pulled my gun and had it ready (but NOT displayed it). My gun won't get pointed at anyone unless I'm ready to shoot them at that moment.

Of course, displaying a gun at the appropriate time HAS prevented many crimes, and it has its place. But doing so in TX unfortunately exposes you to the risk of losing your CHL, your right to own guns ANYWHERE for the rest of your life, and possible jail time.

 

[jsalcedo]

Welcome Sam!

I remember you from the tx.guns newsgroup.
There are infinately fewer trolls here.

It's good to have you aboard!

 

[Shootcraps]

Someone stepping out of their car with no visible weapon, is not a threat to your life. He had no legal reason to draw his gun.

I believe that brandishing means showing someone you have a gun. You don't have to point it at them to be guilty of brandishing. That may vary from state to state, but I doubt it's much different.

If the jerk had gotten back in his car, jotted down your tag number and called the police reporting that you were waving a gun around, I bet a zillion samolians that you would be go to jail for brandishing a firearm.

>>Now, "threat" is in the eye of the beholder. In neither of the above incidents did I point the pistol at anybody. My own definition would be "display", and not threat. "I'm armed; leave me alone." I realize full well that others may differ.<<

If you get taken to jail, then "threat" is going to be in the eye of the judge. "Your" definitions don't mean doodly squat. It's your state laws that do.

 

[Byron Quick]

I believe that brandishing means showing someone you have a gun. You don't have to point it at them to be guilty of brandishing. That may vary from state to state, but I doubt it's much different.

And you'd be very, very wrong.

You cannot find the words brandish, brandished, or brandishing in Georgia's code.

Georgia has a statute against pointing a firearm at a person without legal cause but I can hold it in my hand with safe muzzle contol pretty much at will.

Now granted, if I decide to do so in the middle of Denny's or some such, some creative law enforcement officer who really has better things to do with his time is probably going to come up with an appropriate charge...it won't be brandishing. In fact, I have never read of a weapons statute that could be applied in this example in Georgia. But creative, I said: inciting to riot, etc.

One of the first things that we, as gun owners, need to do when crossing state lines is discard this idea that things are probably pretty much the same. The laws can be radically different.

 

[mr_dove]

Instead of searching for Brandishing in your statutes looked for Menacing. That's what I found in the CRS (Colorado Revised Statutes).

Menacing covers

showing someone your gun (threateningly)
telling someone you have a gun (threateningly)
someone believing you have a gun (in some cases)

I'll look up the statute and post it here. There is a great deal of case law here in Colorado saying that you need not POINT your gun to menace.

 

[mr_dove]

Here is the actual text of the menacing statute from Colorado.



(1) A person commits the crime of menacing if, by any threat or physical action, he or she knowingly places or attempts to place another person in fear of imminent serious bodily injury. Menacing is a class 3 misdemeanor, but, it is a class 5 felony if committed:

(a) By the use of a deadly weapon or any article used or fashioned in a manner to cause a person to reasonably believe that the article is a deadly weapon; or

(b) By the person representing verbally or otherwise that he or she is armed with a deadly weapon.


Later cases determined:

The phrase "use of a deadly weapon" is broad enough to include the act of holding a weapon in the presence of another in a manner that causes the other person to fear for his safety, even if the weapon is not pointed at the other person.

People v. Hines, 780 P.2d 556 (Colo. 1989);
People v. District Ct., 17th Jud. Dist., 926 P.2d 567 (Colo. 1996).