Brandishing to stop hostilites?

[Shootcraps]

Ok Byron, so Georgia has their code written differently. {violation of rules of conduct deleted} I said "That may vary from state to state", so I'm not very very wrong. Duh.

 

[Byron Quick]

but I doubt it's much different

Very different.

Oh, by the way, please refresh your memory in regards to THR's rules of conduct.

Perhaps I should have used very, very different instead of very, very wrong. I apologize for unintentionally giving offense.

 

[thefitzvh]

Back to the original question:

Whether or not brandishing is legal in any area makes no difference to me. What it boils down to is:

1.) If I feel threatened, I need to stop that threat, and
2.) I'd rather not ever have to discharge my weapon.

therefore, if I need to stop the agression, but feel I can do so by merely brandishing instead of firing, I'm going to do it.

Besides, if you TRULY felt threatened, then you're acting with LESS force than is legal, IMO, and, with good legal advice or an attorney, it shouldn't hurt you.

"My client was threatened with a knife, told to hand over his belongings, and he merely moved aside his coat to reveal his firearm..."
etc etc


I'd say it's absolutely appropriate to brandish IF AND ONLY IF you feel threatened.

Now, if someone calls you a name or rides your tail on the highway, and you brandish, then you're a dummy and deserve your CCW taken from you.

James

 

[Zundfolge]

Menacing covers

showing someone your gun (threateningly)
telling someone you have a gun (threateningly)
someone believing you have a gun (in some cases)

I'll look up the statute and post it here. There is a great deal of case law here in Colorado saying that you need not POINT your gun to menace.

Once you POINT the gun at someone you've just committed Assault with a deadly weapon.

So this guy brandished his firearm ... and probably did so a little prematurely. But I don't necessarily think what he did was all that bad (because for one thing he kept the situation from escalating).

Good thing for him the other guy didn't call the police ... in the end he would have probably lost his CCW (at least).

I think it would have been better to let the guy approach and attack your car ... then you could have him arrested so maybe he'll stop doing this crap.

 

[mr_dove]

I guess if you don't care whether its justified or not. Brandishing your gun is very effective in most situations.

Just remember that the other guy may be armed as well and he WILL be justified in shooting you because you threatened him with a gun.

1. Don't get caught
2. Don't get shot

 

[Bobarino]

we've probably all had someone mess withus on the roads. giving you the bird, motioning you to pull over, inviting you to a fight, etc. before i was 21 and got a CWP i was dumb and pulled over and got in fights. then i started carrying, and even though initially i feel like a total wussy for leaving a potentially dangerous situation, making me feel like he won and i ran away, eventually i get over it and smile knowing i made the right choice. i know i made the right choice becuase nobody was hurt, and i'm defending my actions in court. only my ego gets slightly bruised, and we all need an ego check now and then anyway.

sounds to me like this guy could have and should have used the gas pedal defense. i think he made a poor choice. just my opinion.

Bobby

 

[Waitone]

Seems to me as soon as the guy's feet hit the pavement that was the posters clue to boogie. Would not have diffused the situation but would have bought time to phone police and get his report in first.

Having said that, I'm aware of a remarkably similar situation where the guy getting out of the car had a butterfly knife in his hand. The victim died with one hole in each lung, a neck wound, and a boot toe in his temple (his 4 year old daughter saw it all).

Glad it wasn't me cause I can see it playing out two ways.

 

[FenderBender]

I was also curious if he had the chance to drive away, so I read the thread at corral.net and found that he offered this reply.......................




So let me get this straight....

A guy tries to bash into my car several times like he's trying to run me off the road, in a parking lot, then whips up beside me, goes to grab something in his car, and then steps out, and I'm the bad guy?

He was about 10 feet from my car. Even with me in the car, it would have taken him about all of 3 seconds do make it over to the car, open my door, and beat me to death with a tire iron. I had a car in front of me, and one behind me, so I couldn't go anywhere.

Please, oh wise ones, you tell me what the **** I was supposed to do?


__________________

 

[Art Eatman]

Driving away, if possible, is probably the best way to deal with Ragers. My problems occurred during a time when I couldn't do that: How does a VW Bus outrun Big Iron? Had I been in one of my street monsters, I wouldn't have worried about guns, clubs, knives or spears. (One, a Chev Healey; the other, a 427 Camaro.)

I had one other event, where four guys in a Mercury Cougar started "misbehaving" when my wife and I were on our way home in the wee hours. Now, why they thought they had the edge over a 3/4-ton van is still a mystery to me. I had the same pistol with me, but never considered it to be of need. I just demonstrated they couldn't outbrake or out-accelerate me, and as I moved over toward the Cougar's passenger door they decided to practice being elsewhere...

There still ain't no "one size fits all".

As to Texas courts and precedent: Years ago, outside Austintatious, four highschool football players thought the car ahead of them was just going too slow on the two-lane, curving road. They honked and yelled and flashed their lights. The driver finally started bumper-bumping. The guy in front finally found a wide spot and pulled over and stopped.

Instead of proceeding, the footballers all got out and came toward the "old fella" and his wife. They shouted curses. He stepped out and center punched the leader with a .22 LR. That ended the party. Ambulance and coroner time.

The Grand Jury did not indict.

, Art

 

[Ryder]

thoughts/opinions?

This happened in NC? Open carry there is legal. Unless the laws have changed since I lived there? I used to openly carry in an auto quite often in NC. So what if anybody sees your gun?

In my current state (Michigan) it's very different. Here a gun in an automobile is a concealed weapon. Doesn't matter if it's sitting on the dashboard in plain site. It is still concealed. We also have open carry, just not in a vehicle. But if you have the permit I guess you're good to show on board? Don't think there has been a test case on this one yet.

So, if both forms of carry are legal then shouldn't one be able to migrate between the two conditions at will? Who's to say it's illegal to switch from concealed carry to open carry? Is there a law that says you can't carry openly just because you have a CPL? I'm sure some screwed up state has that law, but it's sure not MI.

 

[Sam Adams]

"He was about 10 feet from my car. Even with me in the car, it would have taken him about all of 3 seconds do make it over to the car, open my door, and beat me to death with a tire iron. I had a car in front of me, and one behind me, so I couldn't go anywhere.

Please, oh wise ones, you tell me what the **** I was supposed to do?"

Had this been made clear from the very beginning, I think that numerous responses would have been different - including mine.

Given the close proximity, the previous and contemporaneous behavior of this rager, and the inability to retreat due to his car being boxed-in, then I think that this guy WAS justified in displaying his gun. In such circumstances, I'd have done the same.

 

[EVIL5LITER]

Hi everyone, I am the original poster of the story.

Having realized that the first post about it I made was a bit vague, I'd like to clarify a few things.

I was blocked in. There was no other exit for me other than to push the car in front of me out of the way.

I did not see a weapon, but from the way he was acting(hiding his right arm behind the door), I am almost positive he had some sort of weapon in his hand.

He attempted to run me into a drainage ditch when he was on my driver's side.

The behavior for me was enough to justify what I did. I hope you all can agree.

Also, I am quite sure that if there were no traffic in front of me, and I had gotten out onto the main road, he surely would have followed me.

 

[csmkersh]

Steve, the two of us posters who've actually been in a road rage incident find no fault. But no telling what some anti-gun cop might say...

 

[mr_dove]

It sounds like the actual situation was much closer to justifiable than the original facts led us to believe. I still stand by the idea that you must be justified in using your gun in order to draw it. That doesn't mean that you MUST shoot someone. It just means that you must have been justified in its use had it been necessary.

It comes down to two points.
1. Do you have a means of escape?
2. Does the person pose a real threat

The first question has been answered by the new facts. You did not have an exit.

The second question can be very complicated and depends on many factors and characteristics of both people involved.

My concealed carry class taught us about a principle that generally governs these kinds of situations and there are several rules. It basically says that there must be an imbalance in power for shooting to be justifiable.

1. a woman is always justified in using deadly force against a male attacker
2. anyone is justified in using deadly force against multiple attackers
3. a handicapped person can use deady force against an attacker
4. a person on the ground is considered handicapped for this purpose
5. a single man against another man is usually not justified unless there are extenuating circumstances regarding skill or strength.
6. The elderly can use deadly force against a young attacker.

It basically comes down to people being on equal footing. Two unarmed men are more likely to be on equal footing when it comes to a fist fight while weaker people would be disadvantaged.

All this changes instantly if the attacker has any kind of deadly weapon. When faced with a deadly weapon you can use deadly force to protect yourself from an imminent attack.

That's how it was taught to us.

 

[EVIL5LITER]

I agree 100% with what you have written there. As I said in the earlier thread, I felt he was armed, although I didn't make sure 100%. If you notice, I say I displayed the weapon, but did not draw a bead on him. If I point a gun at something that breathes, it's going to be to kill it.

The close proximity of his vehicle to mine was also a worry for two reasons:

1)The time it would take for him to cover the distance between the two vehicles

2)My car has a low roof line, and this was a tall guy, so if he did step out of the vehicle and approach me, his line of sight would not be in line with the windows, enabling him to see the gun. At which point, I would most likely be forced to fire upon him, in front of his wife(and kids, I think).




Edit: Grammar