Cam Over OR Not.

[fguffey]

Let me see if I understand this: when you set up the press to cam-over,

No; you do not understand, if my press does not cam over before I start there is nothing I can do to make it cam over; I have presses that cam over, I have presses that do not cam over. Adjusting the die in the press is different for both presses.

I do not set the press up to cam over, the press cams over or it does not cam over. The confusions is caused by reloaders that do not know how to determine if the press cams over.

Let me see if I understand this:

Do you understand what a one way clutch is? Do you understand how a one way clutch works? The automatic transmission will not work with out one way clutches. The clothes washing machine will not work without a one way clutch. I have a one way clutch on by Piggy Back 11 presses. My piggy back presses will not work when used with a cam over press because the one way clutch would be rendered scrap if the press camed over.

The one way clutch would be rendered scrap of the press would lock up if the press camed over.

F. Guffey

 

[Captaingyro]

Let me see if I understand this: condescension and talking down to people who ask honest questions makes things better.

Is that correct?

 

[Walkalong]

That's just fguffey style. I have never figured out if he has no sense of it, or is doing exactly what you say.

He did tell me once he was intentionally vague to make people think. Doesn't make sense to me though. Why not just out with it and be more helpful.

if my press does not cam over before I start there is nothing I can do to make it cam over; I have presses that cam over, I have presses that do not cam over. Adjusting the die in the press is different for both presses.

I said the same thing a couple of pages ago.

I do think some folks don't understand cam over, but I am not gifted enough verbally to describe it well, an then fguffey will take me to task about it.

Guess I am just one of those dumb reloaders he talks about.

 

[gojones]

At the expense of really showing my ignorance, I have 4 presses and I was thinking that only one was a cam-over:

1. 1970's vintage Rock Chucker (cam-over)
2. Hornady LNL AP - 2013 (Not Cam-over)
3. RCBS Rockchucker Supreme - 2014 (Not Cam-over)
4. Forster Co-Ax - 2015 (Not Cam-over)
Have I identified these presses properly?

Has this forum listed and identified the more popular presses as Cam over OR Not?

 

[GW Staar]

I'm probably going to regret this post, but if nothing else maybe it will inspire Guffy to explain what he only talks around, so far. I'm no machinist, nor a mechanic, but I understand what cams do in some applications if not all.

My understanding of a one-way clutch is basic.....you have gears that engage and transfer power only one direction.....and when rotation is reversed the same gears "free-wheel". That's often accomplished by roller bearing-like cylinders that are crammed, using springs, against the inside of one gear but only when rotated one way.

What I don't understand is how such a thing relates to a reloading press linkage like a Rock Chucker, which simply consists of a double pivoted lever push-pulling a ram up and down. Nothing "one-way" directional about that motion.

The so-called cam-over that RCBS mentions in their die adjustment instructions would seem to indicate that there is a cam somewhere. (a hole drilled slightly offset on a rotating part so that during part of the rotation it can push more against another part than during the rest of the rotation.)

That would seem to have to happen at the pivot at the bottom of the ram....but in using my R.C. II I don't measure any "over the hump" which should lower the ram past the "cam" top if only a thousandth or two. The "cam-over" on my press seems flat......that is...past the top of the "cam" there is no discernible let off (pressure on a case in the die)..........yet the press handle "seems" to let off as it would topping past the high part of a cam. I suppose the "cam-over" could be figurative, descriptive of what it feels like to the operator on the handle.

Whatever the case, I'm glad for the "cam-over" because it gives a repeatable pressure on the sizing operation. "Cam-over" and you know it applied the same pressure. That said, such "cam-over" is variable depending on how much pressure you want to apply to your press. Easy cam-over or hard cam-over with another twist of the die. But however you set it, it's repeatable once you lock the die's nut.

Some consider it just taking the slack out of the pivots...and maybe that's true.......and as long as it works.....and you don't over do it and break a casting.

 

[cfullgraf]

The clutch fguffy is talking about looks alot like an anti-friction bearing (ball, roller, needle, etc) but is designed to only rotate in one direction. If you try to rotate it backwards, it locks. Rotate it forwards, it rotates freely.

I have a ratchet wrench that uses one of the clutches for the drive instead of the typical toothed affair. It gives infinitely, variable action of the ratchet. Great for turning things in tight places where you do not have room to turn a normal ratchet to engage the next tooth.

 

[Metal God]

If that's the clutch Guffey is talking about . You know the way my back wheel on my bike works . Then it has nothing to do with how a cam over press works , Maybe progressive presses but to my knowledge none of them cam over so it again does not apply here . The title is Cam over or not , Which to me infers that there is a choice in the press you are using to cam over or not .

Now if that's the type of thinking Guffey want's his readers to do . It would seem hard to understand what type of thinking he's doing him self .

I have another theory why he's so incomplete with his answers . It's so he can never be proven wrong . If you never give a concrete answer you can't be wrong . The problem there is you can't be shown to be right either . :banghead: You just end up talking in circles .

FWIW I have a Hornady cam over press that I just run two test with sizing 3 cases in each test . First I set the die so far down the press had no chance at cam over and the arm just stops when die and shell holder hit . Second was to adjust the die to let press cam over with moderate to light contact between the die and shell holder . ALL 6 cases were sized to with in .001 of each other from head to datum point .

I don't think the question should be cam over or not . It should be hard contact or not ?

 

[AR-Bossman]

Fwiw i have a hornady cam over press that i just run two test with sizing 3 cases in each test . First i set the die so far down the press had no chance at cam over and the arm just stops when die and shell holder hit . Second was to adjust the die to let press cam over with moderate to light contact between the die and shell holder . All 6 cases were sized to with in .001 of each other from head to datum point .

I don't think the question should be cam over or not . It should be hard contact or not ?

perfect !!!!

 

[Captaingyro]

The reason this question interests me is that I had an experience with camover that I still find counter-intuitive. I have a Remington 5R Milspec with a very tight chamber. My first reloads for it would not chamber.

Now, my common sense tells me that once a sizing die makes contact with the shell plate, you've done all you can do...no more shoulder bump is going to happen by screwing the die down further. However, a good friend who has been writing about reloading for years advised me to screw the die down another quarter turn so that the press cammed over at the top of the stroke. Lo and behold, that did the trick; the rounds now chambered just fine.

I am still at a loss to explain why this "touching the shell plate plus a little bit more" works, but in this case it did.

 

[Metal God]

Hey go back and see my post # 16 for explanation . It had to do with the flex in the press . The resistance the case has to being sized cause the linkage to flex , deflect causing the die and shell holder not to touch . I show this in post # 16

 

[Walkalong]

It had to do with the flex in the press . The resistance the case has to being sized cause the linkage to flex , deflect causing the die and shell holder not to touch

Exactly. when adjusting the die to touch the shell holder or plate (If that is how you size), you have to do it when actually sizing a case to make sure it touches then.

 

[BBarn]

Some of the confusion regarding cam over lies at the feet of RCBS. Their description of “cam over” in the die instructions is not press cam over, but is a description of the press being forced into a bind of sorts where all the clearances in the linkage, pivots, and components are suddenly reduced to zero.

My RockChucker does not cam over, but I can adjust the die such that the press behaves as RCBS describes. However, I’ve yet to find a reloading situation where such an extreme is needed with the dies I have and firearms I load for. If I had a particular firearm where the cases needed such a degree of resizing, I would probably purchase a small base size die with the hope that it would size the case enough to avoid the RCBS method of "cam over" die adjustment.

That RCBS method of die adjustment creates a situation at the end of the ram stroke where the press abruptly snaps into a bind, places very high stress on the press, and probably causes rapid wear of the parts. No thanks.

 

[Captaingyro]

That RCBS method of die adjustment creates a situation at the end of the ram stroke where the press abruptly snaps into a bind, places very high stress on the press, and probably causes rapid wear of the parts. No thanks.

My instincts agree...it just seems like it's abusive to the machinery, and we've all been taught since childhood that you don't abuse your tools. Still...

RCBS has had this technique in their die instructions for decades, and when I got my Forster Co-Ax I called Forster and asked them about it. Specifically, I asked if it was OK to adjust sizing dies down a little after they make contact with the shell holder, so that the press "cams over" at the top of the stroke. Forster customer service replied, "It's absolutely OK...the press is designed to take it." So, at least two reputable press manufacturers agree that it's a legitimate practice, and evidently it doesn't affect warranty coverage.

 

[Captaingyro]

Hey go back and see my post # 16 for explanation . It had to do with the flex in the press . The resistance the case has to being sized cause the linkage to flex , deflect causing the die and shell holder not to touch . I show this in post # 16

Your post #16 was very helpful, and it was that post that inspired the question I asked in post #50. The pictures were great, and I was trying to clarify my perception of the situation. Again, thanks.

 

[hdwhit]

That RCBS method of die adjustment creates a situation at the end of the ram stroke where the press abruptly snaps into a bind, places very high stress on the press, and probably causes rapid wear of the parts. No thanks.

I've used the same RCBS Reloader Special (no compound leverage) press since 1977. I have always adjusted my dies in accord with the RCBS instructions (with a "cam over" for steel dies and no "cam over" for carbide dies). I have loaded thousands of rounds of ammunition using steel dies and my press has not suffered any "rapid wear" on any of it's parts. They are all still OEM, still producing ammunition as accurate as the day I bought it and as I posted recently, still working through the last thousand rounds of 9 mm Parabellum that I resized.

 

[jmorris]

I have used Sprag and Over Run one way clutches but never on a reloading press. There are ratchet devices on my 1050's that prevent anything except a complete stroke but thats a bit different

Doesn't matter to me what press I am loading on I always set the dies the same. Start off with them high and adjust down until desired results are achieved, one after the other. Simple and works.

 

[fguffey]

I have used Sprag and Over Run one way clutches but never on a reloading press.

Part #87653 is a one way clutch for the RCBS Piggy Back 1 and 11

http://www.rcbs.com/RCBS/media/RCBSMedia/PDFs/Parts/Parts_Book.pdf

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

Hey go back and see my post # 16 for explanation . It had to do with the flex in the press . The resistance the case has to being sized cause the linkage to flex , deflect causing the die and shell holder not to touch . I show this in post # 16

Hay; if we are going back why go back to post #16, let us go back years ago when it was suggested reloaders purchase a feeler gage and use it as the companion tool to the press. In the beginning reloaders were grinding the top of the shell holder and bottom of the die. It was suggested anything that could be accomplished by grinding the bottom of the die and or the top of the shell holder could be accomplished with a feeler gage. I know, there were those that used light but for me when the case whipped the press I wanted to know by how much. Later as in years Redding came out with Competition shell holders and then there came Skip’s shims. I purchased a set of #6 Redding shell holders for belted cases for $5.00. I have not used them but I have them just in case.

Again, I never found a use for Skip’s shims because I do not secure the lock ring to the die, I secure the die to the press with the lock ring meaning I adjust my dies every time I use them because I am not afraid of loosing my place; and I use different presses with different dies for different chambers.

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

when the case whipped the press I wanted to know by how much.

It should be understood the deck height of a shell holder is .125”, if the die is adjusted with the additional ¼ turn after contact there should not be a gap between the top of the shell holder and bottom of the die if the press had the ability to overcome the cases ability to resist sizing.

Long before this thread it was suggested the reloader learn to remove the die with the case before lowering the ram. A reloader that can remove the die with the case before lowering the ram can learn to measure case head protrusion. Again; in the perfect world case head protrusion would be .125”, anything beyond .0125” indicates the amount of the case that did not get shoved into the die.

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

I said I have instructions for cam over presses, I said I have instructions for non cam over presses; both sets of instructions came from RCBS. I have shared the instructions with other reloaders. I said I have presses that cam over, I said I have presses that do not cam over. I said I have Rock Chuckers that do not cam over; I said I modified one Rock Chucker to cam over. On that one press the ram travels up, reaches the top of the stroke, stops and then starts down. That one Rock Chucker became a cam over press that is also ‘now’ known as a bump press. Meaning the ram bumps the top on the way up and again on the way down. For those with instructions and want to adjust the die in a bump/cam over press adjust the die to the shell holder after the press cams over.

F. Guffey