Carrying a gun you like.

[old lady new shooter]

Shooting a gun you don't like, certainly is the hard road. It's like going to work out at the gym. It's work, and it's not much fun. I spent at least a year shooting a minimum of 50 rounds a week, every week, out of whatever Glock I was carrying on my dominant side. That was a minimum, sometimes it was 150 rounds over two or more trips a week. I made myself go, I made myself shoot, and I got better. Now I don't have to shoot every week, because I'm maintaining skill not building.

That way is not for everyone though. You make your choice, and you go with it. Though I'd suggest you consider a nice double action revolver like a 686(+) or GP100 rather than a single action. I think that would serve as a reasonable balance between enjoyment and pragmatism. That way you can practice things like controlled pairs, the Mozambique drill, and emergency reloads. Seriously, give it some consideration. Perhaps read No Second Place Winner by Bill Jordan.

Bill Jordan could hit an aspirin tossed into the air, drawing from the hip. With a revolver.

 

[old lady new shooter]

I'm not saying that it's never justified to shoot someone in the back of the head,

Good. If defending others it can be perfectly reasonable. See Jack Wilson in the White Settlement church shooting incident.

 

[old lady new shooter]

And where is the carry weapon to be carried?

The posts in this thread have evinced much knowledge about weaponry amongst members. Great stuff.

As we read in the news, many urban areas are being taken-over by criminal gangs. When attacking -- let's say a carjacking -- many of these gangs have as many as four perpetrators loaded up in one vehicle for the assault. Once upon a time, most carjackings involved a felon pulling a weapon on a driver and saying, "Get out of your car and leave the keys in it!" Nowadays, the bad guys are simply shooting the driver. Zero reason. Pure cruelty. Mayhem writ large.

I could provide a stack of videos to prove my point, but everybody knows what I'm talking about. One doesn't want this to be true ... nevertheless ... can't pretend it away.

Given the above, if one is carrying in a high crime area, that individual will require many rounds for their defense. I love revolvers, yet in these situations, one is forced to have available a semi-automatic with a high capacity magazine. Extra magazines could well be needed to escape from multiple armed aggressors.

Me, my default answer concerning carrying a weapon you like would be, "Carry that with which you are most comfortable"; however, given the dark days in which we live, the choice of weaponry may just be imposed on an individual, like it or not. One is going to have to put in a bunch of practice with the needed weapon and become comfortable with it. Select an automatic that fits very well in your hand. Reject any weapon that "just doesn't feel right".

Being at home versus being forced by circumstance to be out in some dangerous territory are two different worlds. In your vehicle, you may only have a handgun for defense. At home, carry whatever makes you feel good. Your handgun will buy you the time to get to your defensive long-gun.

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/...arjackings-philadelphia-first-two-weeks-2022/

https://www.foxnews.com/us/philadelphia-reaches-1000-carjackings-first-time-ever
.

I saw a headline earlier that Philly and Chicago are more dangerous than Iraq now.

 

[JohnKSa]

Good. If defending others it can be perfectly reasonable.

Yup.

That could be legal if you were using justifiable deadly force in defense of a third person.

 

[old lady new shooter]

Interesting discussion thus far.

No reason to double tap as I believe 44 special, loaded to slightly above 45 automatic levels will bring down an attacker with 1 shot. So my six shooter makes me good for up to six badguys provided I have good shot placement.

I don't doubt your shot placement is perfect when the target isn't moving. I worry about this myself because I have no way to practice against a moving target; I think I could hit someone COM even if they were moving, but certainly not as exactly as a stationary target. Also, I'm no expert on caliber effectiveness so I can't speak to your choice, but I remember there was a study published awhile back that did show .357 magnum was considerably more likely than other handgun loads to stop an assailant with one shot, but still not guaranteed. Also, if BG is on drugs he may just keep coming. Or BG may go down but still have his weapon and now he's really mad so he's still trying to shoot...

As far as a mob of people. No gun is going to save you if after the first shot they don’t start backing up.

The mob possibility is why I went to an AR for home defense, after watching the 2020 goings on.

My point in carrying a gun I like, is that I don’t shoot or practice with guns I don’t like. So it’s better to carry a gun with which I’m familiar and proficient than a gun with which I never use and have to remember how to function before I can use it.

I don’t practice a lot for self defense. I practice my draw, and single hit on target, then transition to another target. Sometimes 3 targets. And I practice smooth reload. I don’t practice running or diving from cover or some such. This old boy can’t run very far or fast. I practice shooting single handed and off handed.

 

[old lady new shooter]

Imagine yourself in a parking lot. Two assailants jump out from behind something and come at you from opposite directions from, say, 4 meters away, moving at perhaps five meters per second.

I think you're dead.

Which wouldn't stop me from trying to defend myself but chances of stopping both of them close to zero.

 

[StrykerByte.45]

I just don't understand why every thread has to turn into a pissing competition about who has more training.
For one, I don't think training should be a requirement for someone to be a gun owner. I understand there are people without good common sense that will get a hold of a gun and not handle it safely, but that is not any of anyone's business. Whether they hurt themselves or they hurt someone else, they will face their day in court.
My daughter was invited by her friends to go shoot guns which she agreed to go with but she says that at some point she realized that those friends of hers were not handling the firearm safely and she separated herself from them and did not company them. She kept herself safe and that is her right and the friends of hers went their way and that is their right. It should not be anyone's business. What their fate is. If they do something illegal they will deal with the consequences themselves. And someone who has has proper training if they wish it to be that way will know how to keep themself safe from those who do not have safe firearm handling abilities.

 

[old lady new shooter]

First and only single shot to head at 2 feet and then step to the side.

Imagine an assailant shooting at you with a semi at 25 yards. Again, a single shot to the head. In both scenarios, a single action revolver would be a fine choice.

I think you are being facetious? Are you aware that where you have to hit them in the head is a very small area?

LOL, definitely not realistic because it’s definitely not probable. But I have no doubt it’s a scenario people train for. When I shot IDPA, we shot for equally unrealistic scenarios. Playing those games, I chose semi autos.

In real life I’m comfortable and confident with every gun I own.

 

[StrykerByte.45]

The only thing realistic to me when it comes to gun fighting that those who have to train a lot will never be better than those that gun fighting comes naturally to.

 

[old lady new shooter]

I just recommended it, I’m someone. They ran at me from 25 feet. Surely you realize that the “coming towards” or “going away shot” is the easiest to make. If not, I suggest practicing that shot and it will become quickly evident and you will see how little your have to move your gun to stay on target.

Also, the perp with the rock/machete/knife had 23 feet to look down my barrel and the whole time my target is getting bigger. Basketball = slam dunk

Too many pages to look back through, but I thought you said 25 YARDS...

It’s a timing or countdown shot and thus doesn’t require fast reflexes. It also tends to calm and coordinate the shooter because the mind can envision the shot and has a picture of success for the second or two before it happens.

The best example for calming coordination and readiness are countdowns for rocket launches.

And yeah, I do have nerves of steel under pressure, but that’s beside the point. If your saying you’d be less scared doing a mag dump at 25 feet, chances are every bullet will be a miss.

 

[old lady new shooter]

It's not just a countdown on a moving head, because that head is unlikely to be delivered on a Zipline. The muzzle still has to be pointed in exactly the right direction, when the bullet leaves it. It's all easy peasy when you're imagining it, but pulling it off first time in real life is unlikely to go well for the vast vast majority people. Maybe you're just that good, but don't pretend such a feat is simple and easy and anyone can just do it.

It's got nothing to do with a mag dump. It has to do with not having to manually cock a hammer before I can take each subsequent shot.

The part about manually cocking the hammer is what I would worry about using a single-action revolver, not only does it take time to do, but it gets the gun out of position so then you need more time to aim correctly. For this reason I think double-action is preferable.

 

[old lady new shooter]

Yup.

I did see where you wrote that the first time, but it was kind of buried in the rest of your post. I wanted to make the point more visibly.

 

[CDW4ME]

No reason to double tap as I believe 44 special, loaded to slightly above 45 automatic levels will bring down an attacker with 1 shot. So my six shooter makes me good for up to six badguys provided I have good shot placement.
.

Actual shootings do not reflect your optimism of one shot stops and 100% hit ratio.
https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power
45 acp took two hits on average to incapacitate.

Also, even with lethal but non-cns hits attacker(s) may have 10 seconds or more of voluntary hostile action; do not expect that being shot will make them quit.

Carrying a gun, Why? In case I have to defend myself, which I do not expect to have to do; I've had concealed carry 30 years and never "needed" it.
What handgun do I carry? One that I think stacks the odds in my favor.
What handgun qualities do I perceive as advantageous? I can shoot it quickly, accurately, repeatedly and not be at slide lock before threats are incapacitated.
Can I give examples? Yes, I think a Glock 22 is advantageous over a revolver.

 

[trackskippy]

I don't doubt your shot placement is perfect when the target isn't moving. I worry about this myself because I have no way to practice against a moving target; I think I could hit someone COM even if they were moving, but certainly not as exactly as a stationary target. Also, I'm no expert on caliber effectiveness so I can't speak to your choice, but I remember there was a study published awhile back that did show .357 magnum was considerably more likely than other handgun loads to stop an assailant with one shot, but still not guaranteed. Also, if BG is on drugs he may just keep coming. Or BG may go down but still have his weapon and now he's really mad so he's still trying to shoot....

You can at least halve the problem and work on, and be comfortable shooting, as "you" move. And you should really be moving and shooting anyway, especially if they are close. It increases your chances considerably, and screws with their OODA loop.

And do yourself a big favor, and forget about counting on a one-shot stop, with anything youre carrying in a holster on your person. You need to be conditioned to shoot quickly and repetitively, and to be able to do it without thought. You shoot until they are down and out, and not just "down". If they still have a weapon in their hands and are still a threat, you keep shooting, down or not.

I think you're dead.

Which wouldn't stop me from trying to defend myself but chances of stopping both of them close to zero.

If you stand still, you may well be. But if youve practiced quickly drawing moving and shooting as you go, your odds just went up a whole lot. Standing still, in any kind of fight, is a bad thing.

The whole point of moving off the "X" is because youre getting off the spot where any incoming rounds are going and your moving makes you a harder target and it screws with the other guys loop and now they have to deal with that, instead of a static target.

The more you practice "ZEN" in your shooting, your chances are going to go way up, and the other guys, way down. Moving while you draw, shooting while you move, shooting with and without sights, shooting in ways you normally never would, etc, and doing it to the point that there is no conscious thought of doing it, but just doing it as you need to, and youll be starting to get there.

Of course, this assumes you actually are serious about things and your gun isnt a fashion/status statement.

Again, the whole point of training and constant practice is to try and be prepared as best you can for the absolute worst, not just what's easiest for you. Shooting tight groups on a bullseye target at your leisure, simply shows you have the very basics down. Beyond that, it really doesnt mean squat.

For one, I don't think training should be a requirement for someone to be a gun owner. ...............

.......And someone who has has proper training if they wish it to be that way will know how to keep themself safe from those who do not have safe firearm handling abilities.

I dont think it should be required either, but if you choose to carry a gun, its still your responsibility to be competent and proficient with it, and that means going beyond just basic target practice.

And regardless of your training, how do you deal with someone who couldn't be bothered to go beyond basic gun handling and maybe shooting skills, if they even have that, and starts shooting at a perceived threat in a public place with no warning to you? The first indication you need to get out of there, may well be when you become collateral damage and get hit with an errant round that they couldn't keep on target.

 

[Ru4real]

They call it an Adrenalin dump for a reason.


I spent my adult life doing this and teaching it for living. You posted what you think you would do.

My hypothetical shot was made at one to two seconds. The adrenaline dump and heart rate jump for me in worst case scenarios takes about 10 seconds. Ask me how I know this fact.

The fact that you’ve spent time teaching responses to scenarios you’ve actually never been in, based on what you THINK you should do is better training than nothing for the masses. I’m not in that group.

I need you and others to keep teaching COM is the best high percentage shot. I won’t mention any weaknesses in your methods; nor will I take any instruction.

I’ll also say that communication in forums is difficult. Had our conversation been in person at a competition or similar event, it would have been over by now.

 

[Zendude]

I think you're dead.

Which wouldn't stop me from trying to defend myself but chances of stopping both of them close to zero.

if you a soldier in combat, then you are probably right. If the two assailants are after your wallet, then I would bet your chances are good that if you hit one the other would run.
There are definitely no guarantees though.

 

[Bazoo]

I avoid anything resembling a bad situation. So unless I’m involved in a Walmart mass shooting, or a home invasion, it’s not likely for me to be involved.

When I say I don’t like training, it’s not that I don’t like shooting and using my gun. I don’t like the training others say are required. The training geared only towards semi autos. The training that requires split second draws and shooting the badguy without thought. Shooting in self defense without thought is a horrible thing to practice. Because you might shoot the badguy as he surrenders, or accidentally shoot a non-combatant out of reflex. Just like wild Bill Hickok did with his deputy.

 

[UncleEd]

Much has been made about moving to survive
an attack. One word has been missing:
Retreat

 

[StrykerByte.45]

And regardless of your training, how do you deal with someone who couldn't be bothered to go beyond basic gun handling and maybe shooting skills, if they even have that, and starts shooting at a perceived threat in a public place with no warning to you? The first indication you need to get out of there, may well be when you become collateral damage and get hit with an errant round that they couldn't keep on target.[/QUOTE]

It would be unfortunate for an innocent bystander to get killed by a stray bullet wether it came from a completely untrained person or even LE. It has happened from both. In reality, people don't need to be competent with firearms to learn to take cover and run from danger. So now what you're saying is that everybody has to go some type of danger of waiting's training just to be allowed to be in public? Unfortunate things happen in life, shootings, earthquakes, car accidents. We can't control everything. There are people who live their life in fear and there are people who live their life prepared for the unexpected. It sounds to me like you choose to live your life in fear, but don't try to instill that fear in me. I'm sure you will instill it in other members here on this forum. Or maybe for whatever reason you just want to argue with other members. Again, it's about you living your life the way you want to live it and being as prepared as you see fit and allowing others to do the same rather than trying to be a control freak.
I'm sorry that they are so many members here that live in fear and I don't even know why I got into this conversation because I don't care. I see fear around me every day and I feel bad for people because I prepare for the worst cases.
If I am at a street corner I stand behind the light poles when I am driving and stopped at a red light. I stay 10 ft behind the crosswalk. Just as examples, I take precautions in the unexpected and I know that many people don't. In fact, I am willing to bet that as much training as you think you have. You take a bunch of risk everyday that negates any type of training that you have taken to save your life.
This is why people say when it's your time it's your time.

 

[Bazoo]

The only thing realistic to me when it comes to gun fighting that those who have to train a lot will never be better than those that gun fighting comes naturally to.

I agree.

I firmly believe, having a cool head under pressure counts much more than lightening fast draw and instant reaction.

I seen a story about a guy that had no training, he was carrying a gun at the county fair. Someone else started shooting the place up and this guy, took a knee so his shot would range high, over the heads of the crowd, and shot and killed the badguy.

The point is he wasn’t trained in various SD classes or scenarios, rather he was able to use his common sense and overall familiarity with his weapon to quickly make the right choice.

The folks here would say that’s all well except he should have considered what If 4 badguys rush him and he has to triple tap them without thinking or reloading.

I’ll even throw another bone out. Badguys are often described as on the level of animals. Wolves on the attack. Well there is a thing I seen in a hunting book that clicked with me. “You almost always have more time than you think”, so don’t rush your shot and potentially miss. A slow (comparatively) well aimed shot is much preferred to a fast miss.

Course, I’m not exactly slow getting my single action into action. The first shot I am just as quick there as any of the other guns I’ve tried, but of course, follow up shots are comparatively slow.

 

[ms6852]

View attachment 1124195

Here’s how I carry. I also carry a reload in that pouch forward of the holster. I do practice my draw from concealment and getting on target. Slow is smooth, smooth is fast.

If the test was to quickdraw against a bad guy, and get a round on target faster than him, I’d have a good chance. If the object was to Quickdraw against 4 badguys, since I’m not a gunfighter, I’ll likely get killed no matter the gun I have. This is my thinking atleast.

I carry my 686 with a 3" barrel the same way you do,

I always rent a private stall and practice drawing and shooting from the hip religiously. Only difference is that I first practice shooting with my 617 S&W with a 4" barrel, using the same holster my 686 fits in. I'll draw and shoot a couple of boxes of 22 first and then I'll do 21 shots of .357 before I call it a day. All of this is done double action only. Nice rig you have set up.

 

[Buzznrose]

I train with my gun in the sense that I practice drawing from concealment, but I don’t practice much else. I tried a few other things here and there, I don’t care for it. I’ve shot from my car, or using it as cover. I’ve tried el prez drills. I just don’t like that sort of stuff.

I like carrying a gun, I like my gun. I like shooting my gun. But I don’t like “training”, so I don’t do it.

I’ve always felt having a gun is enough, and then practicing a smooth draw and being proficient with manipulation, more than enough.

As far using it in a class against semi autos, I’d lose hands down.

I don’t carry a gun though because I’m a bad dude. I carry a gun because 1st I like guns and the feeling of security they offer. And 2nd, as a last resort for self defense.

I respect your opinion and decision. I also respect your choice.

As long as you are safe and can properly handle your firearm, that’s all other people should be worried about.

Your effectiveness and proficiency level, assuming you don’t shoot any non combatants, is your business.

All in my opinion.

 

[Kleanbore]

I'm sorry that they are so many members here that live in fear

i am aware of none. We recently had an entire thread on the subject.

 

[Kleanbore]

I seen a story about a guy that had no training, he was carrying a gun..., and shot and killed the badguy

That does happen.

 

[StrykerByte.45]

I agree.

I firmly believe, having a cool head under pressure counts much more than lightening fast draw and instant reaction.

I seen a story about a guy that had no training, he was carrying a gun at the county fair. Someone else started shooting the place up and this guy, took a knee so his shot would range high, over the heads of the crowd, and shot and killed the badguy.

The point is he wasn’t trained in various SD classes or scenarios, rather he was able to use his common sense and overall familiarity with his weapon to quickly make the right choice.

The folks here would say that’s all well except he should have considered what I’d 4 badguys rush him and he has to triple tap them without thinking or reloading.

I’ll even throw another bone out. Badguys are often described as in the level of animals. Wolves on the attack. Well there is a thing I seen in a hunting book that clicked with me. “You almost always have more time than you think”, so don’t rush your shot and potentially miss. A slow (comparatively) well aimed shot is much preferred to a fast miss.

Course, I’m not exactly slow getting my single action into action. The first shot I am just as quick there as any of the other guns I’ve tried, but of course, follow up shots are comparatively slow.

Exactly.
I don't think there's anything wrong with training either. If one feels that they need it then they probably need it. Not everyone can pick such things up quickly. Fighting of any sort is a dreadful experience.
But I do speak from experience. I see a lot of members here talk about how they've been in so many life-threatening situations. They seem almost traumatized about it if they've been shot at four times in their life. It's horrible. I don't wish for anybody to have experience the things that I have experienced in my life before the age of 16.
There was something that I learned at an early age with the people that I grew up with it's that there's just some people that are not cut out for stuff like that. Most people are just not cut out to even have a fist fight. Much less a gun fight. Even those that are brave enough to engage in fights are not cut out for it most of the time.