It's not the non-gun enthusiasts that we worry about. It's the criminal element that we worry about. Why advertise that you are carrying?
CCW holder shows poor judgement
- Thread starter Jeff22
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It's not the non-gun enthusiasts that we worry about. It's the criminal element that we worry about. Why advertise that you are carrying?
Comrade Mike
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I think you guys are vastly overthinking this
Trent!
Beware there seems to be a long haired, shirtless man carrying a gun in your front yard!
LOL! If that is disturbing to people, I better not post what I do in the back yard.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
And that's understood. There's certainly a tactical advantage to remaining inconspicuous in social settings. No gun shirt, no rolex, no BMW. Don't project that you're any sort of "person of interest" to the bad guys, the cops, or the busy body soccer mom/dad who might put your pic on facebook with a bunch of nasty comments about how you're an evil gunbaddy endangering their town.
The alternate view is to not hide from society but find ways to put guns in the public eye, in the most positive (or at least neutral) way possible. Be the good neighbor everyone likes (Hey, Trent
) who happens to carry a gun when he's gardening or mowing the lawn. The more folks see that, with no bad effects, the less jarring or noteworthy it is. Be the well-dressed business casual fellow standing politely in line to grab his sushi at the food court (Hey Mainsail! ) who happens to carry a gun. Wear that NRA polo shirt at the office, and chat about positive aspects of gun ownership when your co-workers ask what's up with that. Etc.Was this fellow at the gas pump a good example of that? Well, all we have is one prejudiced and blinkered view from someone with a negative attitude about it, so it is hard to say. Those "Keep Calm" shirts are pretty witty and really popular right now. Among a younger crowd they might indeed be a positive talking point.
And I suspect the OP might indeed have been pulling our legs. Dakota Minnesota is a miniscule country burg over 100 miles outside of Minneapolis. Chances are the guy was just a country kid in his element with no reason at all to worry that some suburban wuss might get his Calvins all twisted up over his funny t-shirt. Strikes me that there's some legitimacy in the concept that you don't wander into someone else's town and get all outraged over what they wear when they're at home. Don't want to see someone carrying a gun? Stay home in the city, dooood.
Ed Ames
Member
I was having lunch the other day and saw someone wearing a tee-shirt with a wall of text across the front. I had almost tuned it out when my brain alerted on the word, "weapon" in the jumble. I lost interest again when I noticed an, "I am a sheep dog," type message on the shirt, but I think the main text was a verbatim plagiarization of this:
"If you are warrior who is legally authorized to carry a weapon and you step outside without that weapon, then you become a sheep, pretending that the bad man will not come today. No one can be 'on' 24/7, for a lifetime. Everyone needs down time. But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself... 'Baa.'"
(taken from http://www.blackfive.net/main/2004/10/i_only_hang_wit.html)
So here is a guy whose shirt wasn't just parodying a Chivas parody of WWII British propaganda ("Keep calm and carry....") but insults LEOs and CHL holders who do not carry 24/7 (and in the process strongly implies the wearer is carrying a weapon). And yeah, I know, "it isn't an insult, sheep are pretty..." riiight.
Would I do that? No. I try (OK, sometimes fail...but try) to avoid insulting people whose views I am trying to shape.
Do I think it was a tactical mistake in some gunfight sense? No. Honestly, lunch wasn't a tactical situation and the odds of it becoming a tactical situation were so vanishingly remote that the potential negative is unmeassurably small. Even if he did have the bad luck to find himself in a gun fight, the printing on his shirt wouldn't have much influence on the outcome. That applies to the shirt the OP took offence to as well.
The only gun shirts that really deserve any mention in S&T (IMO) are the shirts that have the butt of a handgun printed so that if the shirt is tucked it looks like you have a gun in your waistband. The only thing worse would be a tattoo of a handgun butt in the same general area.
"If you are warrior who is legally authorized to carry a weapon and you step outside without that weapon, then you become a sheep, pretending that the bad man will not come today. No one can be 'on' 24/7, for a lifetime. Everyone needs down time. But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself... 'Baa.'"
(taken from http://www.blackfive.net/main/2004/10/i_only_hang_wit.html)
So here is a guy whose shirt wasn't just parodying a Chivas parody of WWII British propaganda ("Keep calm and carry....") but insults LEOs and CHL holders who do not carry 24/7 (and in the process strongly implies the wearer is carrying a weapon). And yeah, I know, "it isn't an insult, sheep are pretty..." riiight.
Would I do that? No. I try (OK, sometimes fail...but try) to avoid insulting people whose views I am trying to shape.
Do I think it was a tactical mistake in some gunfight sense? No. Honestly, lunch wasn't a tactical situation and the odds of it becoming a tactical situation were so vanishingly remote that the potential negative is unmeassurably small. Even if he did have the bad luck to find himself in a gun fight, the printing on his shirt wouldn't have much influence on the outcome. That applies to the shirt the OP took offence to as well.
The only gun shirts that really deserve any mention in S&T (IMO) are the shirts that have the butt of a handgun printed so that if the shirt is tucked it looks like you have a gun in your waistband. The only thing worse would be a tattoo of a handgun butt in the same general area.
I look at it this way.
If I wear a political message on my chest / back with the shirt I put on, a LOT of people see that, and a slim *few* might actually read it.
If I wear a gun openly, a LOT of people will see that. It's guaranteed that anyone with a set of eyes will cue in on that hardware. And see a guy pumping gas. Or gardening. Or doing whatever mundane task I'm doing at the moment.
Sure, I *might* run across a bad guy someday and need to defend myself. But I keep my head on a swivel when I'm in public, and it's not very likely they're going to catch me napping. Sure, they'll know I have a gun.
But... I have a gun. And they know that.
Which means they know that whatever ill deed they're about to do in my vicinity, is guaranteed to be met with a level of lethal force.
People that look at this situation with only ONE thing in mind (tactical disadvantage) are ignoring the positive effects of "spreading the good word."
Stop and think about it for a minute. Cops are often alone, doing mundane things. Everyone KNOWS they have a gun.
How many times have YOU heard about a criminal performing an armed robbery on a convenience store WHILE THERE IS A UNIFORMED COP OPENLY CARRYING A GUN STANDING IN THE CHECKOUT LINE?
You very likely haven't.
Because the criminal *knows* they are going to be met with force. They'll choose a different gas station to rob, without a guy with a gun standing in the checkout line.
I honestly believe you are *more* likely going to be put in a position someday of needing to use a gun if you carry it concealed, than you are if you carry it openly, because open carry guarantees to the bad guy's mind, "I might get shot if I try what I was about to try..."
If I wear a political message on my chest / back with the shirt I put on, a LOT of people see that, and a slim *few* might actually read it.
If I wear a gun openly, a LOT of people will see that. It's guaranteed that anyone with a set of eyes will cue in on that hardware. And see a guy pumping gas. Or gardening. Or doing whatever mundane task I'm doing at the moment.
Sure, I *might* run across a bad guy someday and need to defend myself. But I keep my head on a swivel when I'm in public, and it's not very likely they're going to catch me napping. Sure, they'll know I have a gun.
But... I have a gun. And they know that.
Which means they know that whatever ill deed they're about to do in my vicinity, is guaranteed to be met with a level of lethal force.
People that look at this situation with only ONE thing in mind (tactical disadvantage) are ignoring the positive effects of "spreading the good word."
Stop and think about it for a minute. Cops are often alone, doing mundane things. Everyone KNOWS they have a gun.
How many times have YOU heard about a criminal performing an armed robbery on a convenience store WHILE THERE IS A UNIFORMED COP OPENLY CARRYING A GUN STANDING IN THE CHECKOUT LINE?
You very likely haven't.
Because the criminal *knows* they are going to be met with force. They'll choose a different gas station to rob, without a guy with a gun standing in the checkout line.
I honestly believe you are *more* likely going to be put in a position someday of needing to use a gun if you carry it concealed, than you are if you carry it openly, because open carry guarantees to the bad guy's mind, "I might get shot if I try what I was about to try..."
This.
It's all about targets.
Being a target isn't mutually exclusive to criminals either. Criticism, bias, LEO scrutiny and marketing can fall under being a "target".
You can minimize your target by not wearing 15 gold chains and four finger rings, wearing your "better judged by 12 than carried by 6" t-shirt, wearing your Yankees jersey at Dodger field or your tie dyed t-shirt with marijuana leaves all over it and even designer clothes or clothes with corporate logos on them
The list can go on almost infinitely.
Even the "my dog is smarter than your honor student" bumberstickers may get you un-wanted attention.
You can either choose to go grey, or you can be a poster for your beliefs or outward persona.
Remember that most logos and witty sayings aren't original to the wearer, and are all somebody elses creative materials or designs, marketed to a certain niche to sell more product and make more money.
Willie Sutton
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Lessons learned:
1: 50% of the people you meet are of below average intelligence.
2: Being a gun owner or getting a CCW does not magically increase your intellecual capacity.
3: Often this means that individuals are not using their brains to consider adjusting themselves or their actions to fit into the context of the situation, with all of the variables and complexities of the real world.
4: In the real world, flexibility and smarts count. To me... being the grey man always seems to work. To others.... well, live and let live. Nothing is ever wasted, your behavior at the very least can always be used as a bad example to others.
5: Trent: Stainless, Parkerized, or Blued for garden apparel? Ya'll look sweaty.
Willie
.
1: 50% of the people you meet are of below average intelligence.
2: Being a gun owner or getting a CCW does not magically increase your intellecual capacity.
3: Often this means that individuals are not using their brains to consider adjusting themselves or their actions to fit into the context of the situation, with all of the variables and complexities of the real world.
4: In the real world, flexibility and smarts count. To me... being the grey man always seems to work. To others.... well, live and let live. Nothing is ever wasted, your behavior at the very least can always be used as a bad example to others.
5: Trent: Stainless, Parkerized, or Blued for garden apparel? Ya'll look sweaty.
Willie
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Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Which in this case might apply equally to the OP or to the guy he saw. Those of us who aren't from Dakota, Minnesota, which would include about 318,529,092 of us (current US population minus the 320 actual residents of Dakota, MN), don't probably know the context of that situation with enough clarity to make an authoritative assessment.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Well, it's partially about targets. Every one of us is sometimes tuned into being as defensive-minded as humanly possible, and other times different goals or foci compel.
Not everyone is willing to go through life without driving a Benz just so the bad guys won't notice them.
Not everyone is willing to wear a Timex just because that would be the more risk-averse choice over the Patek Phillipe they bought with their bonus check last year.
Not everyone feels that tactical perfection is more vital in their daily lives than being some kind of visible ambassador of gun ownership.
Not everyone feels that when they're pumping gas in their tiny little rural hometown they should change out of their cute gun shirt and put on a fishing vest to cover up their holster so they don't startle the outsiders or maybe become the target of a passing gang of gun-thieves.
Different strokes, and all that.
Jeff22
Member
When you're out in public, the best course of action is to be armed, be competent, and be quiet about it. Don't draw attention to yourself because you don't want negative attention.
At the very least , you don't want to advertise that you are a gun owner because you risk making yourself the target of thieves.
Carrying openly on your property or in your place of business is your right, and as time goes on it becomes more & more common.
Carrying openly in public is also your right but in many environments is not the best course of action. You don't want to become the subject of negative attention and possibly be the target of a burglary, a theft from your vehicle, a sudden assault, or a disarming attempt.
People often think that carrying openly is a deterrent. In many cases it certainly is, although it's hard to measure deterrence because the potential act deterred never occurs.
Open carry in many situations makes you a target.
My issue with the goof in this case is NOT that he wasn't concealing his gun well enough. Sometimes things happen. If he'd been wearing a regular T-shirt and not advertising the fact he was armed, I would've approached him & said "Dude, your holster is sticking out."
I probably didn't express the context well enough in my original post. I have no reason to believe that this guy was a bad guy. But from his manner of dress and his body language, he was clearly looking around to see who was looking at him. He wasn't maintaining situational awareness, he was trying to deter anything,he wanted to be noticed. He wanted to be the center of attention. Just like the six year old kid jumping up and down yelling "look at me! Look at me!"
I've been carrying a gun concealed in public for over 30 years. I never wear clothing in public that would identify me as a cop or as a gun owner. I try to dress to at least moderately fit in to whatever environment I'm in.
I've known two cops who were the victims of burglaries because the burglars knew they were cops and went in looking for guns. In neither case did the cops go out of their way to be identifiable off duty, but they got targeted anyway. (we know what the intention of the burglars was because they got caught)
I know of four cops who had weapons stolen from their vehicles. One guy lost a S&W 49 that he had in the glove compartment. Another guy lost a Sig 228 that he had under the front seat of his truck that he may have forgotten to lock. (That weapon got recovered years later. Had the serial number ground off the slide) Two others had their duty weapons & duty rigs stolen out of the back of hatchbacks where the guns weren't properly secured. (In one case the rig & weapon was stored in a black duffle bag, and in the other case it was lying out in plain view while the person dropped their dog off at the vet.)
In another case I took the report on, a tactical officer from another agency left his body armor loaded with G22 mags & handcuffs lying in the back of his Chevy Suburban, visible to anybody that walked by. Fortunately he'd taken his duty weapon and radio in the house with him. The thieves were teenagers looking to commit crimes of opportunity, mostly stealing from unlocked vehicles. In this case they broke a window to gain entry. The magazines & handcuffs were discarded by the burglars & recovered. They apparently dumped the armor I to a nearby lake because they thought it had a homing device on it.
If you carry openly, if you make a big production out of being armed and owning guns (because you're an attention whore) you MIGHT avoid being a victim of a street crime. We'll most likely never know because a potential crime deterred is often not detected.
You WILL make yourself a target for burglars who'll try to break into your house or car looking for those guns you want everybody to know you have.
At the very least , you don't want to advertise that you are a gun owner because you risk making yourself the target of thieves.
Carrying openly on your property or in your place of business is your right, and as time goes on it becomes more & more common.
Carrying openly in public is also your right but in many environments is not the best course of action. You don't want to become the subject of negative attention and possibly be the target of a burglary, a theft from your vehicle, a sudden assault, or a disarming attempt.
People often think that carrying openly is a deterrent. In many cases it certainly is, although it's hard to measure deterrence because the potential act deterred never occurs.
Open carry in many situations makes you a target.
My issue with the goof in this case is NOT that he wasn't concealing his gun well enough. Sometimes things happen. If he'd been wearing a regular T-shirt and not advertising the fact he was armed, I would've approached him & said "Dude, your holster is sticking out."
I probably didn't express the context well enough in my original post. I have no reason to believe that this guy was a bad guy. But from his manner of dress and his body language, he was clearly looking around to see who was looking at him. He wasn't maintaining situational awareness, he was trying to deter anything,he wanted to be noticed. He wanted to be the center of attention. Just like the six year old kid jumping up and down yelling "look at me! Look at me!"
I've been carrying a gun concealed in public for over 30 years. I never wear clothing in public that would identify me as a cop or as a gun owner. I try to dress to at least moderately fit in to whatever environment I'm in.
I've known two cops who were the victims of burglaries because the burglars knew they were cops and went in looking for guns. In neither case did the cops go out of their way to be identifiable off duty, but they got targeted anyway. (we know what the intention of the burglars was because they got caught)
I know of four cops who had weapons stolen from their vehicles. One guy lost a S&W 49 that he had in the glove compartment. Another guy lost a Sig 228 that he had under the front seat of his truck that he may have forgotten to lock. (That weapon got recovered years later. Had the serial number ground off the slide) Two others had their duty weapons & duty rigs stolen out of the back of hatchbacks where the guns weren't properly secured. (In one case the rig & weapon was stored in a black duffle bag, and in the other case it was lying out in plain view while the person dropped their dog off at the vet.)
In another case I took the report on, a tactical officer from another agency left his body armor loaded with G22 mags & handcuffs lying in the back of his Chevy Suburban, visible to anybody that walked by. Fortunately he'd taken his duty weapon and radio in the house with him. The thieves were teenagers looking to commit crimes of opportunity, mostly stealing from unlocked vehicles. In this case they broke a window to gain entry. The magazines & handcuffs were discarded by the burglars & recovered. They apparently dumped the armor I to a nearby lake because they thought it had a homing device on it.
If you carry openly, if you make a big production out of being armed and owning guns (because you're an attention whore) you MIGHT avoid being a victim of a street crime. We'll most likely never know because a potential crime deterred is often not detected.
You WILL make yourself a target for burglars who'll try to break into your house or car looking for those guns you want everybody to know you have.
Willie, it's a Glock. Made of Indestructium (patent pending) it's finish is highly resistant to both pro-gun sweat, and anti-gun tears. Holster is a Blade Tech Nano IWB.
Regarding the 'gray man' philosophy of blending in.. that can change from one locale to another. Generally speaking, I choose to just 'be me' and let the rest of the world agree or disagree, unless there's a particularly pressing reason to disappear. (I participated in a lengthy thread on that once, on here, about blending in.)
I've found that in some situations being my usual 'long haired country hippy fellow' works out just fine. In other situations, it causes undue attention.
As such I've learned to adapt my entire to encompass a wide range of potential social situations, ranging from "the hipster", to "the redneck", to the "homeless dude." I can even pull off a pretty convincing "effeminate" persona (think.. hairdresser lol). It's interesting to see how differently certain people interact with you based on what personality attributes you are presenting at the time.
^^ That's a very important point.
I live out in the country, and don't *mind* if my neighbors see a gun on me. I shoot handguns off the back deck frequently, they all know I'm a concealed carry instructor, etc. (Most of my neighbors do likewise...)
I do NOT put bumper stickers on my car, "trespassers will be shot" stickers on my house windows, etc, because if someone randomly goes driving past my house I don't need them knowing. "Steal me stickers" is what those were called back in the 80's-90's - referring mainly to car audio equipment (Alpine, etc). It lets the thief know "there's something valuable in here."
An NRA sticker on the back of your truck makes it a target for a random thief to smash in to while you're inside eating or shopping.
A "Protected by Smith & Wesson" window sticker on your front door signals any thief who happens to see it, that you've got guns in your house. Couple that with a stakeout or if there happens to be a stack of newspapers sitting there, and the grass is untended in your yard... then they know you are on vacation....
Now if I'm outside and a random car goes by (unlikely as I'm on a dead end), and that person *happens* to notice the guy in the yard is wearing a gun... well, nothing says "don't mess with this neighborhood" quite like that. Would be a bad idea to hit an occupied house out in this area.
Unoccupied? That's what the big 3600lb safe and other home security measures are for.
When I go in public I have no choice but to carry concealed, IL law stipulates that. And I do a good enough job at it.
But, given the *choice*, I don't *mind* carrying openly. In fact, when I travelled to the East Coast back in 2012, not having any sort of concealed carry permit, open carry was the ONLY way I could carry in Virginia and North Carolina.
I had no problem carrying openly there, didn't feel awkward. With it being my only choice available, I'd rather be armed and open, than disarmed.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Those statements seem contradictory.
Guess ya took the bait them!
He reeled in at least one lookey-loo.Vodoun da Vinci
Member
I try not to get my panties in a bunch when folks go about their business in a way that is .....well, not the way I'd go 'bout mine. I often shake my head and grin that "special" grin when I see folks do things that are their perfect right to do but I would not want to be seen doing. It's called individuality and it really did take me a long time to understand bone deep that one size does not fit all.
Ever.
The reason for different mind sets and different tools is that we all should be using what has proven to work best for us and let others choose what works best for them. It's taken me about 40 years to live that concept and really feel it but there it is. I live in a place that fears cultural and ethnic diversity and I personally thrive in such an environment so there has been opportunity for me to be offended virtually every day. I choose not to allow myself to do that.
That said I live in Illinois and in my very neighborhood there *are* people who will call the Police and scream "Man with a gun!!" if they see my weapon exposed in public - there is no open carry here. Even folks that know me (we are avid dog walkers 2 1/2 miles a day 6 days a week. *everyone* in the neighborhood knows my dogs, my Wife and I) and have talked to me daily for 30 years would be shocked and upset to know I am carrying a loaded gun on my person. I have stood right there talking to them on the sidewalk outside their homes before CCL was legal in Illinois and had them tell me that no one should be carrying guns unless they are the Police.
So, I think maybe some degree of upset at seeing others exposing weapons and advertising the fact may have something to do with mindset and local politics. Some will feel, justifiably so, that exposing them to weapons would be doing them a favor and that they should get over it. I personally would never want my neighbors to be intimidated or upset if it is possible to spare them that and it's easier for me to let them live as they have...thinking no one in their locality is armed and capable. But I know for a fact that there are members of my family and my neighbors who would be offended that I carry. And seeing it exposed, accidentally or on purpose or in an uncaring manner, would make problems folks would likely scoff at in another state or location. I have odd opinions - I will not wear T-Shirts with slogans or even logos, there are no bumper stickers on my car/truck, and no slogans or such on my hats. I don't wear my opinions or the opinions of retailers as a billboard and I let the way I carry myself let BG's decide if I'm a victim. I will not personally ever carry open weapons unless the possibility of combat is imminent. I do not expect my Way to be others Way unless it works for them.
We all see it different a bit - I'd also add that folks who frequent gun boards will likely have a much different perspective on this than the general public or even gun owners/CCL participants who are disinclined to participate online. My point being that what ever the consensus here at THR feels is appropriate behavior may, or may not, be a consensus of opinion amongst none gun board dwelling CCL holders.
VooDoo
Ever.
The reason for different mind sets and different tools is that we all should be using what has proven to work best for us and let others choose what works best for them. It's taken me about 40 years to live that concept and really feel it but there it is.
I live in a place that fears cultural and ethnic diversity and I personally thrive in such an environment so there has been opportunity for me to be offended virtually every day. I choose not to allow myself to do that.That said I live in Illinois and in my very neighborhood there *are* people who will call the Police and scream "Man with a gun!!" if they see my weapon exposed in public - there is no open carry here. Even folks that know me (we are avid dog walkers 2 1/2 miles a day 6 days a week. *everyone* in the neighborhood knows my dogs, my Wife and I) and have talked to me daily for 30 years would be shocked and upset to know I am carrying a loaded gun on my person. I have stood right there talking to them on the sidewalk outside their homes before CCL was legal in Illinois and had them tell me that no one should be carrying guns unless they are the Police.
So, I think maybe some degree of upset at seeing others exposing weapons and advertising the fact may have something to do with mindset and local politics. Some will feel, justifiably so, that exposing them to weapons would be doing them a favor and that they should get over it. I personally would never want my neighbors to be intimidated or upset if it is possible to spare them that and it's easier for me to let them live as they have...thinking no one in their locality is armed and capable. But I know for a fact that there are members of my family and my neighbors who would be offended that I carry. And seeing it exposed, accidentally or on purpose or in an uncaring manner, would make problems folks would likely scoff at in another state or location. I have odd opinions - I will not wear T-Shirts with slogans or even logos, there are no bumper stickers on my car/truck, and no slogans or such on my hats. I don't wear my opinions or the opinions of retailers as a billboard and I let the way I carry myself let BG's decide if I'm a victim. I will not personally ever carry open weapons unless the possibility of combat is imminent. I do not expect my Way to be others Way unless it works for them.
We all see it different a bit - I'd also add that folks who frequent gun boards will likely have a much different perspective on this than the general public or even gun owners/CCL participants who are disinclined to participate online. My point being that what ever the consensus here at THR feels is appropriate behavior may, or may not, be a consensus of opinion amongst none gun board dwelling CCL holders.
VooDoo
Ed Ames
Member
To be honest that is only correct in a fairly limited context. There are many parts of the country where being a gun owner no more makes you a target of thieves than being a dog owner would. Everyone already has several, why risk stealing another?
Beyond that, it isn't the way everyone approaches risk reduction. There are commercially available signs that featurea picture of a revolver and the words "Never mind the dog, beware of owner!" People post those signs on both residential and commercial properties. My across-the the-street neighbor has one, along with cameras everywhere, and signs pointing out the cameras. He also made a point (while asking to borrow my lawnmower
) of telling me how he and his "old lady" both own guns. I just nodded along and asked him how he liked his camera system, since I am generally of the "need to know only" mindset and wasn't about to get into a gun discussion... but it illustrates the point that there are people who actively disagree with you about the best security strategy.Does it, universally?
A friend of mine recently moved from California to Arizona. One of his comments was that it wasn't unusual to look around and realize that one third (his estimate) of the people in a coffee shop or store had a pistol on their hip. Do you have any evidence to support the claim that that third of the shoppers in Whatevertown, Northern Arizona, were targets in a way the other shoppers were not?
To which he might have reasonably replied, "yep, the tee shirt keeps the gun from chaffing."
It honestly reads more as more parochial. Like, "That's not how we do things where I come from. Different is wrong, so this guy was wrong."
You sound like me when I first moved from extremely-urban Southern California to trying-to-be-urban Dallas, Texas. For the first few years I regularly came across things that would be taboo where I grew up, but were expected and normal in Texas. It took me some time to realize that neither culture was actually right, or wrong, as such. I am still a bit taken aback by some things, such as the expectation that it is normal to talk to people who happen to be standing near you (e.g. in a check-out line). The difference was that I recognized that I was the fish out of water and tried to keep an open mind about the sanity of the people around me.
How long had you lived in his town to gain your expertise on what is normal there?
Again, this sounds like something that would only be true where guns are relatively rare and hard to get.
Willie Sutton
Member
- Joined
- Apr 28, 2013
- Messages
- 2,025
Sam correctly says:
"Which in this case might apply equally to the OP or to the guy he saw. Those of us who aren't from Dakota, Minnesota, which would include about 318,529,092 of us (current US population minus the 320 actual residents of Dakota, MN), don't probably know the context of that situation with enough clarity to make an authoritative assessment."
My point exactly.... it's both in the transmission and reception of the message where things can go wrong. Context and the ability to adapt to context is the key.
Trent says:
"Regarding the 'gray man' philosophy of blending in.. that can change from one locale to another. Generally speaking, I choose to just 'be me' and let the rest of the world agree or disagree, unless there's a particularly pressing reason to disappear. (I participated in a lengthy thread on that once, on here, about blending in.)"
Absolutely correct. You (and I daresay me) are socially competent enough to figure out without having to be told how to fit into any situation into which we are thrust. That takes social sensibility and a modicum of brains. You can "blend in" by "being yourself" as long as you're smart enough to send the nonverbal and verbal cues that are appropriate to the scene. Being just a "little" odd sometimes helps people fit in and be accepted. Example: You *can* drive a beat up VW Karmann Ghia and wear a Rolex as well as a Colt 1911 and fit into breakfast at a tiny roadside diner in Rogers City Michigan where the locals haven't seen anyone strange in five years. Being open and friendly is a good starting spot. It's a subject worth another complete discussion....
"It's interesting to see how differently certain people interact with you based on what personality attributes you are presenting at the time."
Absolutely, and it's a lot of fun too.
Glocks & Gardening: Perfect Together.
Willie
.
"Which in this case might apply equally to the OP or to the guy he saw. Those of us who aren't from Dakota, Minnesota, which would include about 318,529,092 of us (current US population minus the 320 actual residents of Dakota, MN), don't probably know the context of that situation with enough clarity to make an authoritative assessment."
My point exactly.... it's both in the transmission and reception of the message where things can go wrong. Context and the ability to adapt to context is the key.
Trent says:
"Regarding the 'gray man' philosophy of blending in.. that can change from one locale to another. Generally speaking, I choose to just 'be me' and let the rest of the world agree or disagree, unless there's a particularly pressing reason to disappear. (I participated in a lengthy thread on that once, on here, about blending in.)"
Absolutely correct. You (and I daresay me) are socially competent enough to figure out without having to be told how to fit into any situation into which we are thrust. That takes social sensibility and a modicum of brains. You can "blend in" by "being yourself" as long as you're smart enough to send the nonverbal and verbal cues that are appropriate to the scene. Being just a "little" odd sometimes helps people fit in and be accepted. Example: You *can* drive a beat up VW Karmann Ghia and wear a Rolex as well as a Colt 1911 and fit into breakfast at a tiny roadside diner in Rogers City Michigan where the locals haven't seen anyone strange in five years. Being open and friendly is a good starting spot. It's a subject worth another complete discussion....
"It's interesting to see how differently certain people interact with you based on what personality attributes you are presenting at the time."
Absolutely, and it's a lot of fun too.
Glocks & Gardening: Perfect Together.
Willie
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That kind of thing may mitigate some risks, but it can introduce others.
The defender whose use of force is called into question by pieces of contradictory evidence (such as indications that the intruder had been fleeing, or had been invited into the premises, or had somehow given the defender a motive to threaten or to harm him) will most certainly not want such signs around to compound his difficulties by providing a basis for the establishment of state of mind.
I have heard the same thing about Phoenix from more than one person.
The subject is discussed here. I direct your attention to the fifth item under Tactics.
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Willie Sutton
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"The subject is disused here. I direct your attention to the fifth item under Tactics. "
In my opinion a must read posting. Excellent in every way.
As`I wrote above, adjusting to the situation is the key.
Willie
.
In my opinion a must read posting. Excellent in every way.
As`I wrote above, adjusting to the situation is the key.
Willie
.
X-Rap
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Comparing AZ to MN or WI is apples and oranges regarding the carrying of weapons and personal protection although it is a good way to demonstrate the point many are trying to make.
A cop in AZ that has lived there all his life would no more blink an eye or comment on what the OP is so tore about up while the same in WI or MN might have a vastly different view given the more recent trend toward personal freedoms regarding the carrying and possession of personal weapons.
MN still has a way to go as probably does WI with regards to method of carry, permissible areas, and just getting people (including LEO) tuned into the fact that everyday joes carry with great frequency and in many different way.
My experience with AZ over the years is that a great many choose to OC, I don't know if it is a holdover from pre Permit days or not. I can also say that I always saw more guns in AZ than NM prior to the cc laws and their OC laws were almost the same so it must be a cultural thing there.
A cop in AZ that has lived there all his life would no more blink an eye or comment on what the OP is so tore about up while the same in WI or MN might have a vastly different view given the more recent trend toward personal freedoms regarding the carrying and possession of personal weapons.
MN still has a way to go as probably does WI with regards to method of carry, permissible areas, and just getting people (including LEO) tuned into the fact that everyday joes carry with great frequency and in many different way.
My experience with AZ over the years is that a great many choose to OC, I don't know if it is a holdover from pre Permit days or not. I can also say that I always saw more guns in AZ than NM prior to the cc laws and their OC laws were almost the same so it must be a cultural thing there.
It's an absolutely vital skill if your goal is to gather any sort of intelligence from an individual, or group, or provide false intelligence. It's really nothing more than role-playing.
Ever consider going to an anti-gun meeting/gathering to just listen and learn? Or even participate and put up misleading concepts? It's useful to hear in advance what sort of arguments they're going to bring up in a debate.
(No one ever said you had to fight fair, in fact, it's often much better if you don't.)
Zen, Pen, and Sword....
Willie Sutton
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"It's really nothing more than role-playing"
Being able to instantly adapt to the role needed to win an encounter with aplomb and grace, no matter if when dealing with the maître d'hôtel at a French Restaurant where you find yourself without a reservation or when dealing with the thug on the corner as you walk by in the city is one of the major keys to life. It may be, in fact, *the* most important skill you can master.
Willie
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Being able to instantly adapt to the role needed to win an encounter with aplomb and grace, no matter if when dealing with the maître d'hôtel at a French Restaurant where you find yourself without a reservation or when dealing with the thug on the corner as you walk by in the city is one of the major keys to life. It may be, in fact, *the* most important skill you can master.
Willie
.
another pake
Member
To my way of thinking, what this thread and this example shows is that when visiting other areas you have an opportunity to see what is normal or accepted behavior there. In Dakota, MN or the small MN town where I live, carrying openly would not raise many eyebrows. That is probably not the case in Minneapolis or St Cloud. It is instructive though.
As far as the T- shirt announcements go, while I don't agree with much of what I see now-a-days, I'm no longer shocked by it either. But I probably wouldn't do it myself. The same could be said for signature lines on internet gun forums I guess.
As far as the T- shirt announcements go, while I don't agree with much of what I see now-a-days, I'm no longer shocked by it either. But I probably wouldn't do it myself. The same could be said for signature lines on internet gun forums I guess.
Arkansas Paul
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That's not advertising that I'm carrying. It's a t shirt.
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